Daunte on the trading block.....

[nofishfisherman]

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It wasn't always his fault but unfortunatly the QB is always in the spotlight and gets the blame.

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That is true only from a fans perspecitve. If the team doesn't win the QB gets blamed from the fans not always from the coaches.. However, the football coaches and front office staff can probably look at his performance and see what is his fault and what is not. They will not cut or trade him if they think he wasn't not the major culprit in the teams bad performance.

The QB only takes the blame from the fans, the coaches know alot more about the team and how everyone played to more accuretly assign blame to the correct players.

My guess if they trade culpepper that will be a sign that says his knee is alot worse off then anyone will admitt. And that his chances of coming back to 100% are slim.

[Big Pine Walleye]

I still think that Defense is what wins championships. I would like to see them spend Culpeppers's contract money (wisely) on defensive players--beef up the o-line and run the ball. Let us take a page from those teams before us that have had success--Carolina, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Baltimore--all with great defenses, good running games, and quarterbacks that manage a game!!

[nofishfisherman]

If we get rid of Culpepper who do you guys want as a QB. Johnson may be alright for a year maybe two but he isn't the future. We won't get a pick good enough to get a top QB in the draft. From what I hear we are lucky to get a 2nd round pick.

Just wondering what you guys think for a future QB.

Not much out there worth much.

[JIvers]

Tom Brady was a seventh-round pick, and he hasn't done too badly in the NFL. Brad Johnson was a ninth-round pick, which would make him an unsigned rookie free agent today, and he has a steady if unspectacular career. Five months before he won a Super Bowl, no one outside of Iowa had heard of Kurt Warner. Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Cade McNown, and Akili Smith, among others were taken as QBs first overall, or early in the first-round, and they were all busts.

My point is that having a high-first round pick to use on a QB is no guarantee of good quarterback play. A solid organization and good scouting can find some great QBs in unlikely places (it was one of the things Denny Green could do very well). I see no reason for holding on to Culpepper, and his big $$$ contract, simply because the Vikings don't have a high draft pick to use on a college QB, especially when DC has a serious knee injury, and an offense that is not well-suited to Culpepper's skills.

[metrojoe]

Ozzie, Tell us how you really feel.

[metrojoe]

The fact remains that DC is not a team leader.

[nofishfisherman]

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My point is that having a high-first round pick to use on a QB is no guarantee of good quarterback play. A solid organization and good scouting can find some great QBs in unlikely places (it was one of the things Denny Green could do very well).

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Wait a minute didn't Denny draft Culpepper. Are you saying that Denny found a good QB?

[hamrej23]

he to good to trade.. period.

[ozzie]

Do you really want to know........Well....oh wait I think I already did.......Yep I still hate him.....

[nofishfisherman]

Alot of mis informed people on here. Alot of opinions not based on facts, and alot of opinions that can't be backed by anything meaningful.

[ozzie]

hamrej23- are you drunk.... just kidding........but you must love watching him drop the ball out of his hands or throw it to the other team or even better after doing all this throw a td and do that f'n roll on crap......boooooo... he is overrated!!!!!!

[JIvers]

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Quote:

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My point is that having a high-first round pick to use on a QB is no guarantee of good quarterback play. A solid organization and good scouting can find some great QBs in unlikely places (it was one of the things Denny Green could do very well).

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Wait a minute didn't Denny draft Culpepper. Are you saying that Denny found a good QB?

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Denny found a good QB for a high-powered offense like that he ran in Minnesota. The problem was that putting together that high-powered offense gobbled up a lot of cap-room, and left the Vikings with second-rate defenses. Culpepper's horrible play this past season demonstrates that he is not a controlled-passing game QB, and that is the system Childress intends to put in place. Johnson did a far better job than Culpepper this year in a short-passing oriented scheme, which is what the West Coast offense is. Denny Green also plugged in Jeff George, who did a pretty good job in Green's system--that does not make George a great QB. If he was, someone else would have signed him, as George is still looking for a job.

[nofishfisherman]

ozzie, who do you want to replace him? Favre? He had more INT's then anyone this year, nearly twice as many as the 2nd place guy.

Why some of you needlessly hate C-Pep is beyond me. What you say is not supported by the stats. He had a bad stretch of games but 2004 was probably the best year a QB has ever had. He shattered records all year long. Did you hate him during that enitre year as well? If you did you don't hate him becuase he is a bad player, you must just have a chip on your shoulder.

Also last year Moss was listed as not able to play for several weeks. He wasn't used as a decoy for 6 stragiht games. Did you even pay attention last year?

I'm not going to complain about a guy just becuase I don't like his celebration dance.

[JIvers]

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Alot of mis informed people on here. Alot of opinions not based on facts, and alot of opinions that can't be backed by anything meaningful.

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nofishfisherman, I agree--attacking people without giving any specific examples to back up your attacks, is indeed "mis informed". It is indeed mere "opinion" when you don't give any facts to support your charges, and any such argument cannot be taken seriously. I think it is cowardly and dishonest to make vague charges without substantiating them.

Look at Culpepper's win/loss record as a starter from this past season, his QB rating, or his TD-to-turnover ratio, if you want facts. Plenty of posters have given all kinds of hard numbers to back up the argument that Culpepper is not well-suited to the West Coast offense. Now, compare Culpepper's performance to Brad Johnson's stats and record after he took over for Culpepper this past season, and explain why Culpepper is better suited to the West Coast offense than Brad Johnson. I have said many times that Culpepper could still be a good QB in a system that emphasizes the deep passing game and utilizes DC's ability to move out of the pocket, but that is not the West Coast offense. You have never replied to that, nofishfisherman, so I am still waiting to hear you explain why Culpepper is capable of being a West Coast QB, when he struggled so badly with short drops and quick reads in September and October of 2005. I am still waiting for you to acknowledge that the system in which DC put up good numbers is not the system that the Vikings used this past season, and more importantly, that it is not the system Childress has brought with him from Philadelphia.

I humbly await "meaningful facts", and not "opinion", from you, nofishfisherman, in your skilled, dispassionate fact-based rebuttal of the idea that Culpepper had a bad season, and that the three blown ligaments in his right knee have not raised any questions about his ability. I have no doubt that you will write a thoughtful, fact-based reply to this, amassing mountains of statistical evidence to show that Johnson's statistically superior job as QB this past season is misleading. This will include an explanation of why Culpepper's many fumbles and interceptions are in fact meaningless. I am confident that you will not reply to this post, nofishfisherman, by saying that I am "mis informed", without answering any of the points I have raised, or showing any actual evidence that I am in fact wrong to say Culpepper is best off being traded, as he is not the right sort of QB for the West Coast offense. Using personal attacks like calling someone "mis informed" without demonstrating any actual example of being "mis informed" is lazy, and the last resort of someone who is in over their head and can't win an argument based on merit. Therefore, I am sure you won't do that, nofishfisherman.

[buzzsaw]

Eyehunter is solid, better not mess with him eh. Good post!

[nofishfisherman]

Ok, where to start. First off I should say that the post you quoted was not directed at you personally. I didn't take notes to see who justified your opinions and who did not. I would saw after looking back at the previous posts that you are one of the few if not only one who did.

When looking at stats I have not looked at only this year as many of you are. Most people ignore past years. No one can argue he played bad this year, we won't go into the reasons for that becuase they are numerous and complicated IMO. But no one can argue that 2004 was one of the best years any QB has ever had. Some people latch on the the negetive I latch onto the positive. Just different ways of looking at the world.

If you look at his stats over the last 3 years and look at not just his numbers but how they compare to the league average you should see some trends that C-Pep is above average in almost all catagories. He has had some inconsistency at times and that is a flaw worthy of noting. But until this year his numbers where getting better and better. Other QB's have just as many INT's and fumbles as C-pep if you look at the numbers.

When talkting about the west coast style of play I agree to some extent that he may not be the best at it. However, the reason Brad can play that system is becuase he has to he doesn't have the arm strength to gun it anymore.

One thing that Childress has said numerous times is that the west coast offense is adaptable to the talent you have. I guess I would assume that that means you can make a guy like C-Pep work with in the system with some alterations. It is a system designed to be flexible.

Now, what I have been attacking is people saying he should be cut becasue he is a bum and a loser and was never any good. That is all false. I can listen to arguements that say he should be cut becuase his knee will never be 100% or even if his game isn't suited to what the coach wants to do.

However, if you have a good player would you cut him just becuase he doesn't fit a certain style of play? I don't think so. If C-pep had a decent year and Childress came in and wanted to use the west coast style do you think he would still want to get rid of him? No, that would be stupid, you don't cut a good player just becuase you think his style isn't perfect. You adapt your style to match his skills.

The main reason I wouldn't trade him is becuase if you get rid of him you won't get anything in return. Maybe a 2nd round pick. The value just isn't there. I would rather wait and see how things pan out with his knee and see if he rebounds from a bad year before deciding on whether to get rid of him. His value won't get any lower then it is right now. If you wait you either will get a good QB that rebounds from a bad year or you have a QB with a bad knee that can't play, (which is where you are right now).

So I guess I am an advocate of the wait and see school of thought.

[nofishfisherman]

few more thoughts.

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Now, compare Culpepper's performance to Brad Johnson's stats and record after he took over for Culpepper this past season

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I have a problem with this statement. Brad did not come in and carry this team on his shoulders. In fact the offense could do nothing for a several game stretch with him at QB. I belive they went something like 2 games without an offensive TD. Is that the kind of performance you want from a QB. 150 yds, 1 int and no td's. Not with a running game as bad as we had.

I have said it before and I will say it again. All but 2 INT's throw by C-pep were thrown after the vikes were down by 2 scores. What this tells me is that the defense that improved is what started winning games. We would get down by 2 scores becuase the defense could stop people. If Brad played behind the same defense that C-pep did you would have seen a 2-5 record as well.

C-Peps int's come for the same reason as Favre's int's, they both try to do to much and the start pressing why they are behind. No one faults Favre for it but C-pep gets killed for it.

Thats all for now. If I left anything out I am sure you will let me know.

[John Mickish]

"The main reason I wouldn't trade him is becuase if you get rid of him you won't get anything in return. Maybe a 2nd round pick. The value just isn't there. I would rather wait and see how things pan out with his knee and see if he rebounds from a bad year before deciding on whether to get rid of him. His value won't get any lower then it is right now. If you wait you either will get a good QB that rebounds from a bad year or you have a QB with a bad knee that can't play, (which is where you are right now)."

If he dosen't heal he is worth less. It's a gamble, do you trade him now for something or do you wait till he is worth either lots or nothing?

In the meantime one thing we haven't looked at is Johnson has said he wants to be a starter either here or somewhere else. Do you risk losing Johnson and then find out Pep isn't going to be healthy and then have (who is the third sting QB?) nobody as a qualified QB? What does a team do then, get Jeff George?

[nofishfisherman]

Brad is signed for next year I believe so he isn't going any where.

There are risks no matter which way you go on this. I just prefer to wait. I am sure he will be able to play again just not sure at what percentage 100% or 50%. Either way I think you can get a team to take him for a low draft pick. I just would rather wait. If he comes back 100% you get ripped off if all you get is a low pick.

[ozzie]

nofishfisherman never have i stated once anything about Favre. I am not that dumb!!!! I guess for the last few years he has played and I have watched alot of the games I recall many times saying what the f^&k is daunte doing or hold on to the f'n ball. I had the same feelings about mike tice as wondering what the he11 he was thinking on alot of occasions!!!! I guess I will have to go look back on the stats which mean nothing if they don't get the W. They went to the playoffs last year with what a 8-8 record. You are right nofishfisherman Daunte is the greatest qb minnesota has had and lets let him continue to pay him the big bucks and lead us to mediocre seasons. That is if he is ever able to come back!!!!

[John Mickish]

I checked and Johnson is signed for next year but we don't know what kind of out clauses there are in it so I can't say for sure that he is a sure thing to be with the Vikes next year.

[buzzsaw]

Either way this teams QB play will hopefully improve with a healthy and hopefully improved offensive line. If we have a good O-line Duante could flourish once again, if not then Brads quick passes adjust for bad line play.

[JIvers]

I don't see why an interception thrown when down by two scores is less important. I want a QB who can move the ball when he really needs to without completing passes to the other team. A big reason Culpepper had to play from behind this season was because he had too many interceptions and unassisted fumbles, which will put a defense in the hole every time, and make it look bad. The defense did need time to gel, which is not Culpepper's fault, but I can't ignore his play this past season, when he no longer had a high-speed downfield offense to work with.

I'm also not convinced that talent is interchangeable, whatever Childress says about adapting it to the system. Look at Atlanta, where Michael Vick is now complaining about the West Coast offense. Vick is really a running back/wideout, IMO, and not an NFL QB, but if you are going to have Michael Vick play quarterback, you should not make him take quick drops and short throws from the pocket. You turn him loose and let him make plays on the run, which is what Vick does best. (And you ignore his mediocre passing skills, but never mind that now.) By the same token, Peyton Manning is a very good regular-season QB, but you could not just tell Manning to start scrambling and rolling out and expect success. That is not Manning's skill, and neither is winning in January, or playing all in February (except in Hawaii). Culpepper is a better QB than Michael Vick, and QB is his true position, but I have seen nothing to indicate that he can make the adjustment to the West Coast offense.

[giddyup99]

I was listening to ESPN radio on the way back from work and they had John Clayton on - he said he thinks the Vikings are possibly going to RELEASE Culpepper outright if no other team is interested in trading for him. Said the Vikes don't want to pay his salary bonus due on March 16th or something. Not a big Clayton guy, it wasn't Salisbury saying it so it may have some truth to it.

[196thDLR]

Well, I guess it's my turn to crawl into the barrel!! I do agree that Pepper had a very bad year in 2005. I did, however, notice that when Pepper was on the field, there were 10 other people in Purple there with him. Funny thing is, I didn't see any of them making any plays either. The offensive line was just that!! OFFENSIVE!!!!! Four of those guys couldn't block anything, even, if they had a D-10 Cat too help them.

Runng Backs? What Runnig Backs? One back had lost is confidence, one couldn't play if he was thought he was hurt, one was the grandpa of the running backs who actually did the best until a season ending injury, and finally, the rookie. And, oh yes, I forgot the one who did not have any of his own urnine, who received a whole year too look for some!

I can't write anymore about the offense, when there just was not any, until our oppenents played their scrubs. And I'm sure that no one wants me too start on the defense.

The moral of the story is, you cannot plow a field with a pony, it takes a team of horses. Key word, TEAM.

Now that you are sick and tired of listening to me, I'll sign off. Welcome Home.

[John Mickish]

You are right but like I said before it's the QB that gets the blame. He also gets the glory when things go good so I guess it goes with the job.

Using your statement the arguement can be made that in the good years Dante was an average QB surounded by great players, and that this year he was an average QB surounded by average players. What I'm saying is you can't give a guy all the credit for when things are good and none of the blame foe when things are bad. I just wish someone could explain how these same (bad) players played better with a different leader? Maybe Daunte is not a good leader and dosen't have the skills to pull the best out of the people around him?

[Rick]

QBs are gold in the NFL. Especially average or better QBs.

Take a look at all the high 1st round QB picks that are busts and you should quickly realize teams will risk/pay a lot to even have a shot at a high caliber QB a few years down the road. Daunte very well may be a great QB for the right team next year or almost surely the year after.

Daunte is a good QB with good mobility (assuming he heals as expected) and a quality arm with accuracy given the right surrounding cast and system.

We can beat a dead horse as to what C-pep will be after he heals up. With recent advances in fixing this kind of injury things look pretty much like he will get it all back as long as he re-habs diligently.

That being said The Vikings were actually looking for a high 1st round pick plus for Daunte. Not a single second round pick that was erroneously reported.

I do not believe for one second that the Vikings will release C-Pep unless C-Pep really de-values himself like TO did. While it may or may not be true that he's a leader it is fair to say 2004 was a pretty darn good year. Many predicted the Vikings to be a top 5 team because of C-Pep's 2004 campaign.

The Vikings prudently should keep C-Pep until they either get good value or keep him if he becomes a quality starter in Childress's system. If they didn't I for one would view them as fools. A second round pick for a proven NFL QB is not good value until or unless C-PEP de-values himself ala TO or his own performance.

[floating minnow]

Rick

Please stop with the common sense.

[John Mickish]

But it's so fun playing "coulda, woulda, shoulda".

[CodyDawg]

I gotta throw my .02 in here. For those that say DC's 04 season might have been the best ever...what color is the sky in that world? Purple? It wasnt even the best in 04, check out Peyton's stats and compare them to DCs. Secondly, so many people cherry pick passing stats to evaluate a QB. I will admit this is one measure. But the ultimate measure is wins and losses. And DC was what, 8-8 in 04? How could that possibly be a great season? DC is well UNDER .500 as a starting QB. He had good teams, he had bad teams, but the reality is he loses more than he wins. He has never brought us to the Super Bowl. In fact, I think his playoff win/loss percentage is well under .500 as well. So if you want a guy who can pass for a lot of yards, IF he is healthy and IF he can adapt (which he has shown NO indication he can do), then he may be your man. If you want a winning QB, look somewhere else. By the way, Gus Frerotte was 3-0 and Brad was 7-1 or something last year with the same team that DC couldnt get to .500.