Just got this from the DNR - fyi

[Schnauzer]

I got it too. Interesting. I'll participate if I happen to be fishing on one of those days.

[tjhunter]

Hooking Mortality of walleye on Mille Lacs Lake in 2003

We request your help in collecting fish for a Minnesota DNR-Fisheries
study on the fate of walleye following release by anglers. The study
begins in mid May and continues through early October 2003. We will set
up holding cages on productive fishing spots and ask volunteers to fish
nearby. Volunteers will catch walleye, signal to a DNR employee, record
some basic information, and turn the fish over to the employee. The
employee will mark and then immediately transport the fish to the
holding cage. Walleye will be held in the cages for several days to
observe delayed deaths. Bring your own boats and fishing equipment, if
available, and fish with your preferred methods. There are legal issues
with retaining protected-size fish, even briefly, so volunteer anglers
must receive temporary permits prior to each day's fishing trip. We will
use the data to evaluate potential regulations, so volunteers will be
asked to submit all walleye, of legal size or not, to a DNR employee
during each volunteer trip. Our goal is to obtain an estimate of walleye
hooking mortality for Mille Lacs Lake and to determine which factors
most influence the survival of released walleye. The more fish anglers
catch for this study, the more accurate and useful the information.

Fishing event days are scheduled as follows: May 17, 20, 25, 30, June
9, 14, 20, 21, July 5, 11, 15, 19, August 3, 8, 9, 29, September 7, 8,
19, 29. Other days are available upon request.

For more information, or to set up dates and times to volunteer, please
call, write, send a fax, or send an e-mail. Also, please indicate errors
regarding your name or address.

[Scott Steil]

After this study they will have to study the mortality rate of fish in a holding cage compared to fish swimming free in the lake. I can see it already!

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Mille Lacs Guide Service
www.millelacsguideservice.com

[Guest]

I received this also. I see problems with this study. I am curious to this cage method.
I hope it works out, but have some doubts.

[doubleUcubed]

Couple of comments. 1. If the survival rate is high, great news for all. 2. If the mortality rate is high, then what? Seems to me that putting these fish into a holding cage for several day's is very "unnatural" and not a really good model. Will these fish have access to deeper/shallower water? Bait fish? Cover? Enough room to rest? Predator fish? Just a couple of thoughts about the study that come to mind. I guess it's a start! Good luck to all this weekend!

[EconGuy]

I think we should applaud the DNR for doing this study. After all the flack they took last year for basing the slot limit at least partly on their estimated mortality rate, it is good to see some research in this area. Of course, no study is perfect but more information is almost always better than less information. Previous studies that I am familiar with have indicated very high mortality rates when water temps are high (July and August). If this study confirms those high rates it would suggest to me that we a ought to consider banning catch and release tournaments during those months.
EconGuy

[Scott Steil]

Econguy, most tournaments on Mille Lacs in July and August are catch and kill tournaments. Tournament anglers catch a very small % of the fish harvested on Mille Lacs each year...Far less then 1% If you want to see a difference you would have to close the lake to fishing, not just change tournament fishing.

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Mille Lacs Guide Service
www.millelacsguideservice.com

[EBass]

I guess I can see both sides.

Yes we need more info on this mortaility rate, but putting them in a cage can only add stress to an already stressed out fish.

Unless this is a lavish huge cage with room service and fin massage.

[EconGuy]

Scott,
I didn't mean to sound as if I were anti-tournament. A good deal of what I know about walleye fishing was learned as a result of watching and reading about tournament fishing as well as fishing with some of the pros. I do think that tournament fisherpersons (notice that, Juls?) should support research that might reduce martality rates even though tournament fishing accounts for only a small fraction of the fish caught. Like it or not, pros have a high profile and so does tournament fishing. Fishing for money is different than taking the kids out fishing and you are going to be held to higher standards. Plese understand, I have yet to meet a pro that is not concerned about the quality of fishing both present and future. If I read more into your initial post thatn I should have, I apologize.
EconGuy

[Scott Steil]

Econguy, all very good points. Being a tournament fisherman I have a pretty good understanding of how they work. The DNR establish a plan for each tournament based on their research and that is included in each tournament permit. There are very few major tounraments in July & August because usually these tournaments are catch and kill.

Now, back to the point. As long as catch and release is allowed, there will be fish mortality post release. The study the DNR is doing is needed as the mortality rate they use currently is to high to be used year around. However, I don't think putting fish in a holding cage is anything like releasing them back to the lake. Not to mention the increase handeling time to get them to the cage.

So, now back to my original statement, they will now have to study the mortality rate of fish in a holding tank versus fish released back to the wild.

------------------
Mille Lacs Guide Service
www.millelacsguideservice.com

[Fish-on]

Do they have a control group to compare this to?

I smell a rat. Walleyes do not do well in cages, that's been proven many times. I'm pretty skeptical about this.

[EconGuy]

Bernie,
Do you think the DNR has a hidden agenda? I'd be interested to know what you think it might be. I will admit that I find it intersting that Mille Lacs was chosen as the test site as opposed to Leech or Winnie. Maybe someone at the DNR can shed some light on this.
EconGuy

[Scott Steil]

Mille Lacs was chosen because of its history of a tight slot and the fact that it got all the publicity last year for dead fish. Most of these fish were not walleye but is sure looked bad on 169.

Hopefully all the fish in the cage do real well and then they can reduce their mortality factor when it comes to determining a safe harvest levels.

------------------
Mille Lacs Guide Service
www.millelacsguideservice.com

[huskminn]

I can't blame the DNR for trying, but, like others here, I'd love to see the parameters of this study. It appears that there will be no control group, which basically makes the study invalid right away.

The number of variables seems endless: How long was the fish fought before landing? Where was the fish hooked? What was the fish hooked with? Was the fish netted or hand-landed? Was the fish taken from deep water or shallow water? Did you set the hook really hard or soft? Etc, etc, etc....

It would be nice to know how they are going to accomplish this....how long will these fish be handled prior to going into the cage?

I don't know.....this plan seems very similar to some of the bright ideas we've cooked up while sitting around the campfire and having a drink after a long day of fishing.

I have often criticized the DNR for how they handle Mille Lacs management...I don't WANT to criticize them about this study because it would be extremely valuable to be able to peg hooking mortality rates. But, it's kind of hard NOT to be skeptical here because this study just seems so wacky.

[Fish-on]

No I don't think they particularly have a hidden agenda, but I do know about past delayed mortality studies in which walleyes were put in nets and have not done well at all. Walleye simply do not do well in nets, and I am really skeptical that a reliable study can be done in this way, even with a control group.

Additionally, I have talked to commercial fishermen who use nets to catch carp, buffalo, drum, etc. They tell me that walleyes that get into their nets do not last long, they just belly up really easy in the nets. More so than many other kinds of fish. I would like to see a full write-up on this study before I pass judgment, but until I am convinced otherwise, I remain skeptical.

[swampman]

I was in the commercial fishing buisness and the wholesale bait buisness with my dad for 15 yrs dad did 40 yrs in the buisness so i will throw in my 2 cents.we didnt drag sein for carp but did hoopnet bullheads and often caught walleyes along with other gamefish in the nets(all of which had to be returned) from my experiance walleyes didnt do any worse in the nets than most other fish . i think the dnr is sincere in trying to get some usefull data by doing this study but there will proably be to many variables to get any hard and fast answers. with that said i dont disagree with there delayed mortality estimates I personally dont think walleyes are as suited to catch and release as bass in fact i am sure of it.not to say that the mortality numbers cant be brought way down.I am sure scott s ,field staff members and most guys who fish alot do the most that can be done to limit delayed mortality. i wish the dnr would do more to educate people on the safe handling of fish to be released.i will list what i know and anybody else feel free to add.Wet your hands before handling fish. dont use landing nets if at all posssible. try not to let the fish flop around on the bottom of the boat. cut your line on deep hooked fish.get fish back to water as soon as possible which can be hard when you have to measure slot fish.the main thing is trying to cut down on the slime loss to the fish which results in a fungus in warm water conditons which is usually deadlly. I believe most people try to do the right thing when they know what it is. as far as millacs managment i tend to agree with Dick Stenbergs viewpoint.

[rms]

Does anyone know if if the tagging study from last year yielded any useful information on hooking mortality? Were any or many of the tagged fish found floating?

[This message has been edited by rms (edited 05-12-2003).]

[Scott Steil]

Good points swampman. My concern with this DNR study is the increased handeling time from when you catch the fish until it is placed in the the holding cage. This is not normal and is certainly different then then time between catching a fish and releasing a fish.

I appreciate the need for the study, it is the method that I question.

RMS, I don't think the primary purpose of the tagging study was to track mortality. It was my understanding that they are studying numbers with the tagging study. I am sure they will get a lot of good info from that study though.

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Mille Lacs Guide Service
www.millelacsguideservice.com

[rms]

Scott,

I agree the tagging study was for purposes other than tracking hooking mortality. I was just curious to see if any pattern showed itself with tag numbers that were reported as C&R and any tagged fish that was reported showing up as floater. Still doesn't mean the fish died from hooking, but with the sample size being fairly large and the pounds of fish that were attributed to hooking mortality you would think a fair number of tagged fish would show up as floaters.

I reported a few fish last year and have yet to get a reply from the DNR.

[Fish-on]

Swampman I have a lot of commerical fishing experience myself, but only as a commercial salmon seiner in Alaska, and I cannot convert much of my experience with that into walleyes in nets. I respect your opinion, but I do know of a couple mortality studies that were done on walleyes in nets, and one in particluar on the Mississippi river showed a large amount of mortality following a tournament, with lots of fish in the control group dying too. I have also talked to a couple commercial fishermen who have told me that they find walleyes are often very stressed and even dead from being held in nets even just for a few hours or overnight. Walleye are more temperature sensative than most other fish, and if the nets were put in cooler water (which may or may not mean deeper water), the fish might do better. However, this depends on where the fish were caught from because they can be very much affected by rapid temperature changes. There are SO MANY variables. I know the DNR folks who are doing this are probably aware of everything I have pointed out, but I also know that these surveys can be somewhat skewed and often used against anglers when there is no justification to do so. Considering the present length and bag limits on walleyes on Mille Lacs, and the political climate there, I think you can understand why I am skeptical.

I am still convinced that their mortality numbers from their creel survey people from last summer were wildly inflated. But that's a different subject which I have already discussed on this site.

[doubleUcubed]

Swamp & Fish, I too have had some experience in seining rough fish. We managed about 8 different carp traps and also did some open water netting of rough fish. The biggest problem with the game fish (namely walleye and northern) was related to the size mesh the sein was constructed of. If the mesh size was 2" x 2" you would get a lot of the 1-3 pound walleye and northern caught in the nets, that alone was not good, but what really beat them up in the nets were the thousands of pounds of carp fighting trying to get out of the nets. Each individual walleye and northern which was caught in the sein mesh would have to be removed quickly or they didn't make it. I don't forsee the DNR using any of the seining nets we used for rough fish but a finer mesh which will not allow the fish to become caught. I agree there are a lot of variables to take into account. As long as the data is presented with all the variables mentioned it should be somewhat beneficial. Remember that this model/study is just that, site specific, lake specific, species specific, etc. Hopefully they will not take this data and make a "blanket statement" that would affect all lakes and fish state wide! I'm looking forward to seeing/reviewing the data, hopefully someone on here can get their hands on it? Good Luck and I hope the DNR has a successful study.

[swampman]

FISH ON my wifes cousin was a commercial fisherman in alaska for quite awhile he fished out of Haines maybe you knew him. still kick myself for not getting up there while he was in the buisness although he still lives there. I didnt mention that we could only net from sept to fishing opener so yes we were only fishing colder water conditions so that would make a huge difference.actually we wouldnt even fish to hard until october because the bullheads were even hard to handle in the early fall. DOUBLE CUBED i should know you unless you were one of the river fishermen i knew all the inland permit holders. if nothing else it will make for good conversation when the dnr gets done with there study. after working with these guys for years i can say that they do love doing there studies and shuffling papers. who knows maybe they will come up with something useful but as stated earlier by myself and others there is going to be alot of variables.

[Fish-on]

I fished out of SandPoint which is way out on the Aleutian Chain of Islands, something like 400 miles west of Kodiak.

Water temperature has everything to do with mortality in walleyes. There seems to be a threshold of about 70 degrees where the walleyes really begin to have trouble recovering from stress.

[ccarlson]

The DNR guy in charge of the study's name is Keith Reeves. Here is his e mail

[email protected]

I'm sure if you requested, he would send you any of the info you may want.

He had e mailed our walleye club asking for volunteers and also included a lot of the control study info. Not perfect, but looked like a good attempt to have a control group.

ccarlson