Pointers vs. Flushers...

[lawdog]

In several of the "I'm thinking about getting a dog" type threads here, many claim something similar to "if you are going to do a lot of upland hunting you need a pointer".

I'm wondering why people say that? I have a lab (well two actually but the second is just getting started) and hunt him in the same areas some of my friends hunt their pointers. We sometimes hunt the same spots and after the pheasants have long since run away from their pointers, my lab and/or my buddy's Golden will flush them right up for us to kill while those guys look on in disbelief (now I should point out that my older lab has matured to the point where he will point if they hold still but will flush when they run so that's a nice combination).

I say its a personal preference thing only and not actually a "better" type dog for upland game. I personally have seen many rather snobbish thoughts on how the pointers are supposed to be so superior. My personal opinion is you can keep your pointers I'll kill more pheasants with my lab anyday. BUT that's just my opinion and my preference and I don't think there's a right/wrong answer.

What do you guys think???

[Mr. B]

It is fun to hunt over a pointer, but I have a Lab. I bought Maggie because I also duck hunt. The problem is that I can not get Maggie to sit still in a blind so I can not really take her duck hunting.

Put Maggie in a field with pheasants and get ready to have fun she is by far the best pheasent dog I have ever hunted over. The only problem is that she will actually catch the birds before they get up. While it is great to come home with birds it can be embarrasing to get asked how many I shot and how many Maggie caught. She usually catches more.

Pointers vs Flushers does not matter as long as the dog puts the bird in the air have fun.

[LABS4ME]

Lawdog, you're points are valid, and would have even more bearing if the only "upland" birds hunted were pheasant. I too own labs, and find they do an admirable job on pheasant (especially late season birds), but there's grouse, woodcock, huns, sharptails and quail to be hunted. While I've had my labs in the grouse woods, you'd be hard pressed to tell me they will out hunt a well trained pointer, spaniel or setter in that situation. On the subject of pheasant hunting, some people would rather take one rooster a day while pheasant hunting over a pointer holding a staunch point, than the 2-3 you'll take with your lab. It does come down to personal choice and style of hunting. Good topic, it just needs to be expanded to include all upland birds, not just pheasant.

Good Luck!

Ken

[lawdog]

That's a good point. With the exception of Huns (which we find in the pheasant field by accident more than we actually find them, I've not hunted that other stuff and don't know much about hunting those birds in the woods. Of course, that's probably because THERE AREN'T WOODS HERE in the plains...

[gspman]

I think it's personal prefence. In my opinion, for putting sheer numbers of birds in the bag, a flusher might be a better option for most hunters in many pheasant hunting situations. I also think in some situations a pointer is superior. But the truth of the matter is that hunting is a whole lot more than just putting birds in the bag. There's lots of things that go into the experience.

Personally, I just love it when a pointing dog pins a pheasant. I just like the bird work of a pointer. I like the way they go about their business. I like how they run and cover ground. I like their style on point. I might add that a pointing dog with poor style on point does nothing for me. I'd just rather shoot 1 pheasant over a solid point than 5 any other way.

Having said all this, I don't hate flushers or look down my nose at them or think less of them but a pointer is what stirs my drink. I have hunted behind some good flushers and can appreciate what they do and they make their masters very proud. I love springer spaniels and the way they hunt. I like their busy energy and their enthusiastic way of hunting and if I didn't love pointers more that's what I'd own for a dog.

Anyway, that's my $.02

gspman

[ReelTimes]

Yes, it is all just personal preference. I agree that if I did a ton of grouse and woodcock hunting, I would probably have a pointer. Since I do mostly pheasant, I like my spanial. I have hunted many times with friends who have pointing dogs and they're all great dogs but I get frustrated by the # of points on pheasant and the rooster runs away. I like my dog to work close (15-20 yards) and put up the bird.

[Blaze]

I think LABS4ME and gspman did a great job of covering the argument. Quarry and hunting style are by far the biggest factors in the flusher -vs- pointer argument, but there are other things that come into play too. One other factor I will throw out there (and I know I'll catch lots of crap for it) is stamina. If you hunt primarily upland birds, the AVERAGE flushing dog will not hold up as long as the AVERAGE pointing dog IMO. Notice I said AVERAGE! I know there are lots of "My 100lb Chessie will go all day on pheasants..." exceptions, but it's just common sense: you can't expect a 100lb dog that is not physically structured for upland bird hunting to last as long as a 50lb light footed pointer or setter. Likewise, I would not expect a 50lb pointer to do as well busting cattails or heavy cover as a bigger, stronger flushing dog. I'm sure there are plenty of “My GSP will bust ice to retrieve late season ducks..." exceptions to this too.

There are pros and cons to both sides of the fence. People just need to appreciate that and choose what suits their needs best and quit trying to convince the world that their dog is the best choice for EVERYTHING. Yes, there are versatile breeds that may be a great compromise between upland, waterfowl, etc., but it is just that - a compromise. If pointing dogs trip your trigger, get an English Pointer, Setter, or GSP. If you love retrievers, look into Chessies, Labs, Goldens, Springers. Find the dog you love, and love the dog you find!

[Walleye Guy]

I believe I have the best of both worlds. A pointing lab that weighs about 75 lbs. He is light enough to upland hunt all day. Big enough to crash cattails. Retrieves duck in the coldest of water. He also points upland birds religously. However if the pheasant decides it does not want to stop to be pointed, he becomes a flusher.

I certainly cannot take credit for the dog's ability as a field dog as the training I gave him probably left something to be desired. I would credit his bloodlines. Both his parents are highly successful field champions and hunters.

My dog is also a house dog which my 4 & 7 year old girls constantly play with and pester. At some point in time I want to breed him as i would like to start another dog when he is around 7.

[james_walleye]

I have 2 year old GSP and personally i get a huge kick when my dog sticks a bird and i walk 2 feet in front of him and the bird busts at my feet. Whether its a rooster i can crack or just a hen, its a great rush for me even when you know the bird is there. I love the sight of him working cover and some of the "poses" he will instantly stop in.

[setterguy]

Good topic, and great discussion here. Whenever someone asks me that question, or the topic of pointers vs. flushers comes up, I always have the same response; I relate each style of dog to a different type of car. Some thing like a big Chessie would be a big work truck, they can take a beating all day and come back for more. A lab would be the SUV of the group, it can haul the boat, take the kids to the park, but still doesn't take up too much room in the garage. Then the german wirehairs would be the Dodge Dakotas, big enough to do a little work with, but small and agile enough to be able to hug the turns too. The golden retrievers would be the family sedan, reliable, starts every morning, not too flashy but you can trust your kids in it. Then the pointers would be the corvettes. Not a lot of room in the trunk, driving it in the cities isn't a lot of fun, and there are many days that they just can't come out of the garage, but once you find a little open road and can lay the pedal down, you begin to understand what all the hype was about. Now wouldn't we all like to be able to put all these "cars" in our garage? Of course. The reality of the situation is that most of us are limited to one or, if we're lucky two dogs. You have to decide what kind of game you pursue and how you like to pursue it. Then decide what breed you will be able to "drive" for the next ten years, cause unlike cars, there are no trade ins on pups.

[Walt Sobchak]

Speaking of the best of both worlds, does anyone pheasant hunt with a pointer and a flusher at the same time? I've got a chocolate lab that does a great job but at some point I'd like to get another dog and I've considered some sort of pointer. Any opinions on that?

[packattack]

I hunt with both a lab and a Weimaraner. I think that they compliment each other very well. The lab can work the heavier cover that my pointer doesn't get into very well. The disadvantage is that I have to keep my pointer close, otherwise my lab will get way out of range.

[gspman]

Walt,

I've never seen it but if you can teach the flusher to honor the pointer's point (by sitting) then I see no reason not to hunt them together. If you allow the flusher to go in and flush you'll likely be looking at problems in the future with the pointer going in and flushing birds. The range issue could be problematic too as mentioned in another post.

gspman

[LABS4ME]

Setterguy...

[ReelTimes]

I'm sure there are many varying experiences with pointing dogs and flushers working together. I have worked both my labs and spaniels with pointing dogs. There may obviously be variances between dogs but generally (for me) I do not like to work pointers and flushers together. The reason is that 1.) I want my flushing dogs to flush and not just retrieve and 2.)I train my flushing dogs to work close (15-20 yards). My spaniel is an enthusiastic and hard worker, and thoroughly covers the ground within shooting distance around me (perhaps to a fault). When I have hunted with pointing dogs, they have almost always worked faster and further out, resulting in them getting to many of the birds before my lab or spaniels would. Of course, the lab or spanials do flush birds missed by the pointers but generally what happens is that the flushing dog gets fewer flushes because the pointing dog covers the ground more quickly and further out, getting to many of the birds first. Again, I know there are always variances but I do not hunt my dogs with pointing breeds.

[BDR]

I agree with those that say personal preference.

I have mostly hunted over pointers, so I can recogzize and appreciate good pointer work. There have been several times this year that I have had to push my GSP hard to get up running birds, at those times a flusher would be a real benefit.

This has been the first year I have hunted with a flusher with my pointer. I have always been afraid that a flusher breaking in would discourage my dog from holding a point. That has not been the case. I have been out with Rick a couple times with his Lab. It has been fun to have "Charlie" lock up and then call "Paris" over to do the flush. I could see how it could become a problem if either dog were running out of control.

[Hot Rod]

Good post Setter guy

I like Vettes too with the Ant.@ 12 and the feathers blowing in the wind.... Now That Some Class

[scotty18]

I got my first pointer last year. I grew up with chessies and labs. It's really been fun, learning what having a pointer is all about. To this day, every time I take my pointer out he shows me something new. The little training I got to do this summer, I worked my lab and setter together. I think working with my lab, my setter has become a better retriever and my lab has learned to honor my setter. I would be real courious on how they would work together out in the field, but age, cold and hip dis. hasn't been to kind to my lab. She's going on the injured reserve list until it warms up. Now if I could get my setter to go in the water.

Scotty

[CodyDawg]

I have hunted with a lot of labs and a lot of brittanies. The best of the bunch? A brittany. No lab I have ever seen had the knack for roosters she has. Lawdog, at 13 and a half years old, she made 2 labs in their prime look foolish last weekend on a rooster. Even though they knew a rooster was there, they ran over it, the brit locked up....creeped...locked...creeped....locked....trailed for 200 yards and locked....bird in the bag. the labs were no where to be seen by this time. And that is not the first time. However, having said that, I think it is way, WAY more individual dog than breed. Other brittanies I have known have not been as good. I am actually thinking about a lab next. there are many pros and cons to each type. You just have to prioritize the traits that you as an individual want out of a dog.