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Shock colars for dogs?


Benny

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duckbuster, Whoa there big fella. Do I understand you correctly? A dog using a e-collar is better than a dog without a e-collar????????????????? I thought it was training than made dogs better? When I say training I mean all the basic skills done the old school way, with collar and leash. Sounds like your saying all that hard work me and my trainer put into my dog could have been avoided by straping on a e-collar. I've been there once. NO THANKS. I'll just stumble around with my "poorly" trained dog. MY Llewellin was conditioned to the collar, for one thing, recall. In 25 hunts this fall I gave him one shock. That's all, just one. I attribute that to good training. My dogs no where near being finished, We're going back soon to continue training. One thing that won't be done is using a e-collar. One thing we agree on is a e-collar is a tool and can be abused just like any tool. I'm not going to use one because I'm putting time in to train my dog right!

Scotty

P.s. my dog picked up whistle commands without any training. Pretty smart dog!

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Teach...I apologize, after re-reading your post I see that you started out saying that collars are O.K., it's just with all your 90% stats along with the post going in the direction of no collar, in my simple little mind grin.gif it seemed to be an all negative post. Again sorry, but to others who bash them my post stands!

Scotty you kill me...you are against the collar for a past mishap, but you stated you collar conditioned this dog and you did use it once this fall...but now it seems you again are against them, what gives? You gave the perfect scenario for collar use right there! Conditioned for one thing in which the dog is lacking, used sparingly and probably for an immediate correction. Now you say you aren't going to use it any longer, and I'm sure you won't attribute any of the dog's success in training to the time you used the collar. Just good ol' school training, sounds fairly hypocritical. I still don't get how people training without the collar feel choke collars, pinch collars, check cords, sit sticks, the back of the hand etc. are more humane than an e-collar. Ever stap a choke collar or pinch collar on your neck take off running and have a friend hammer you at the end of a rope? I've nicked myself at all levels of my collar and would do so again, but I'll never put a choke collar on my neck. If your dog doesn't need any of these tools and only needs a little sittin' down talkin' to, get me one of his pups, cause we can all use one of those! grin.gif

Plain and simple if the "ol' school" approach was by all standards better...that would still be the way the MAJORITY of dogs are trained. I'm not saying you can't do it without the use of an e-collar...but you WILL be doing it more humanely and with better efficiency with a collar.

Good luck! Ken

[This message has been edited by LABS4ME (edited 01-13-2004).]

[This message has been edited by LABS4ME (edited 01-13-2004).]

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Labs4me, I think sometimes I should reply after my afternoon nap, then the stuff I write looks a little more coherent. Your right. I will still strap the e-collar on for hunting. I still think you will get a better dog if you put the time in "old school" then do the e-collar. If you have read my other posts, then you probably understand why I don't like to use e-collar. Now I know what you're saying about choke collars,etc. I probably shouldn't keep bringing my Llewellin pup up as an example because he does so well. I've never seen a dog pick up on new commands and different training so fast before. I don't know it I got that one in a million dog or if setters are just that smart. I grew up with labs and chessies. This is my first dog other than a retriever, so I just don't know.I had coon hounds for a while but they don't count. When we are at the trainers and he shows us something new to do, I swear I still don't believe he picks stuff up so fast. I've given up trying to teach him new stuff while out hunting. He usually teaches me. I'm convinced that it's my dogs willingness to learn and his intelligence that makes it so easy. I'm sure I'll never get this lucky again. By the way, I'll put you on the list for puppies. grin.gif I did do my homework on this breed before I bought him. I won't get into bloodlines here, but Count Noble is in there and he does take after uncle Hank. Ok that's enough. I have to get back to work. I try not to stir stuff up to much, but when someone writes you'll get a better dog using a e-collar I can't help myself.

until next time,Scotty

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Atta boy Scotty! Good Post....just trying to clear the air...You're right, collars WILL not make a good dog, they only help in re-inforceing the good ones! grin.gif

Good Luck! Ken

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This topic is widely debated amongst hunters every where. I have been down both roads, to collar or not to collar. I had a Brittney that was my best hunter for both grouse and pheasant. It was my "best friend", we played and hunted. I bought another brit and was the worst dog ever bred. Bought a collar and used it the Wrong way and ruined the dog beond repair. Now I have a yellow lab, went back to being the "Friend" and has worked out great. I do use the collar on her while hunting to correct bad behavior(ie chasing deer), but on the lightest setting. There are times that collars are good, but don't misuse them for it WILL ruin your dog. I have seen it in my dogs and in others. Used correctly it will help in training, the best thing is to make a friend out of the dog, make it so it is fun to retrieve and hunt not a chore. Lets don't even go in to kennels or house dog.

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Trained a couple of labs without collars, the second one was a real workhorse - the kind of dog everyone liked, friendly, fantastic retriever, birdy... Even with him, there were some times when I wished I had a way to "reach out and touch him". At the time, there was no money for a collar, so that was that. That dog's been gone for years now, and my hunting partners still talk about him, and what a pleasure he was.
My current lab is now 4, and I was starting to experience some of the same "selective hearing" issues that I remembered so well. At some times, when he thought the distance was safe, he would simply ignore a command, or worse yet, lift his leg on the nearest bush and go about his business. Obviously clear and knowing disobedience.
Close the distance by even a little, and suddenly the hearing returned, and he would rush to heel - effectively foiling any attempt to give him a little "come to Jesus" talk. He is one cunning devil! Forget check cords - he figured those out years ago.
Finally broke down and got a collar last spring - a cheap one that had a decent range and a fairly good warranty. After a brief period of conditioning, and testing the thing out on myself at various ranges and various settings, I tested it out for real.
Worked like a charm. The look on his face when he decided to head out with the neighbor dog - ignoring the whistle - was absolutely astonishing. The first time, he couldn't believe it - came back right to heel, and when he decided about 20 minutes later to "make a break for it" keeping a shed in between us to shield his movements, he got caught a second time.
What I couldn't believe was just how good that pooch's hearing really was! Suddenly, he could hear a quiet "come" from distances that I was amazed at.
Basically, I use the collar in limited circumstances, to accomplish specific goals, and have been pleased. While he sometimes wears the collar during fetch sessions, I haven't nicked him during that activity, and don't plan on doing so. The collar also has a tone on it, and I have been pleased with being able to get the dog's attention without whistling, yelling, or nicking him. He knows to look at me for further instruction when the tone goes off, and we can go after partridge and pheasants far more silently.

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Scotty: You did understand me correctly. A dog being trained with a collar will in the end be a better trained dog because of it. Using a collar is a type of "training". All the hard work you are putting in with your dog is wonderful, in no means do I want to diminish your work. What I'm trying to say is the work with a collar will be done crisper, cleaner and with every bit as much go as a dog without the use of the collar.

There is one thing I don't understand from your side though. You say you won't train with a collar but yet you put the collar on the dog when you hunt. This doesn't make sense to me. If your willing to nick the dog during a hunt why not during training?

I appreciate the civil banter on this subject, please don't take my thoughts personally.

I'm still waiting for an e-mail from you by the way.

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Duckbuster, Don't worry about offending me, like I said I'm participating on these topics to learn. I have learned a lot expecially the e-collar topic. Ok as far as what I meant about training was we did all the basic obedience and the start of the field work with leash, check cord, etc. Then my trainer and I did some e-collar conditioning. I am still a little afraid of what happened to my other dog. At that time I only felt confortable using my e-collar for one thing, Recall. With all the information I'm getting I have started to rethink my position on collars. To be honest with you, I think I can finish my dog without one. But only because my dog is easy to train. We are going back for more work this month. I will be going back with a more open mind about collars.

Scotty

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Ok now that you guys have opened my mind a little, I have some questions. Beeper vs bell. This fall I put a bell on because my dog is mostly white and after it snowed my dog was like a ghost in the woods. But it seemed like the sound of the bell would flush already spooky grouse? Also I see some of the new e-collar come with a "page" button. That sounds interesting. Anybody use one?

Thanks,Scotty

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