Shock colars for dogs?

[Benny]

I finialy talked the wife into getting puppy, I want to get a shock colar as a back up training aid.
I looked at Tri Tronics,Dogtra,and a few others.
Any one have an opinion on what one is better and why you think it is?

Thanks, Benny

[Guest]

Why do you want to electrocute your puppy for? IMO, its a terrible training aid, don't take the easy way out and inflict pain on your dog. Having a dog is a huge commitment and part of that involves spending many hours in obedience training. Take him or her to class and do it right. Would you like your dog to put a collar on you?

[knucklehead]

Benny,

I have a tritronics field 70. 5 settings to it, one mile range. i have had minimal problems with it. any problems that i did have I took it right back to the big store in owatonna and they replaced it or I called tritronics themselves they stand behind it 110%!! Dogs take alog of committment and I must agree with the earlier post that an obedience class is a big help, but the collar is even greater help. My dog goes and gets his collar and brings it to me anytime he wants to go out and play so the people that say it hurts them..........I have my doubts. good luck

[knucklehead]

tri

[irvingdog]

Whitetip does a pretty good job of making people who decide to use an E-collar sound inhumane. It is just not true. Obviously, this person has not used or felt the correction that is given off by one.

In the hands of a ham-handed bully, an e-collar is a terrible thing. So is a broomstick.

that said, get a Tri-tronic. Any company can make a radio device capable of giving an electronic stimulation. Few can make one that is capable of consistent, low level corrections. They are extremely durable, and the level of customer service there is second to none.

Please remember, E-collars only re-inforce clearly understood commands. They are not remote controls. Use them properly, and they are gentle and extremely effective. A healthy relationship with the dog, where each party understands the needs and commands of the other, is indeed very humane.

[leechlake]

I know have a tri tronics, best there is. I used to have a ...., it escapes me, but it was a bit less expensive but it only worked for about a year and then it didn't work too well. These things get a lot of abuse, especially during hunting season so without question spend the extra. I would think a field 70 would be perfect. On the next models the "intensity" level can be adjusted from the controller. The old ones you had to change the intensity by removing the color and putting in different colored thing a ma jigs, not convenient. Congrats on the new puppy, my 6 and 8 yr old lab and golden seem like they were puppys yesterday.

[Mr. Pike1]

There are many methods to train a dog. Any method that incorporates comapassion, discipline and love will work. I would never use this method. If you want a friend for life in your do please reconsider your choice....

[Guest]

I have a Dogtra 1200 NCP. The P is for page which is a nice option to have. You don't have to blow the whistle every time you want to give a hand signal. The people who abuse collars are the same people who beat their dogs. Any dog is going to be confused if it doesn't understand a command and then gets shocked, so you have to fully train your dog without the collar first and then the collar is a reminder. Just about all of the field trial dogs are trained with collars and they do some amazing retrieves. It's basically like having a long leash. The Mike Lardy collar conditioning video is very good, it's a little expensive at around $60.

[Guest]

Gimme a break, Whitetip and Mr. Pike!!! I'm just going out on a limb here and assuming you have no experience training any of the hunting breeds? These dogs, especially a really driven "alpha" male, can be real knuckleheads (no offense to the poster above!), and constantly challenging authority. Let's see - what would you do if your dog saw a squirrel, rabbit or something, and then took off running right for a busy road? You're yelling for the dog to stop, but he/she's focused on that #$*@ rodent and totally oblivious to the speeding traffic he's about to run into. Would you push that button on the e-collar remote? I've been in that situation, and made the right choice for our Weimaraner. Believe me, that dog loves us and doesn't hold it against us a bit as far as we can tell.

[Guest]

fargin. your wrong. I train and breed springer spaniels. Theres no need for those shock collars. The more of a "knucklehead" your dog may be, the more training and patients it needs. The dog must be feeling pain if those collars work so well. To many idiots go out and buy these things and don't take the time to train themselves. They put the collar on and start zapping. My sister is a veterinarian. She has seen countless scars and burns from these collars.

[spinach]

I run a tri-tronics sport 60 on my weim. I strongly believe a shock collar can be a very useful and life saving training aid (If used correctly.) Yes some people just put the collar on the dog and zap them every time they do something wrong or bad. I strongly suggest whatever brand you purchase please do lots of reading and train yourself to properly use the collar before that collar ever gets put on your puppy. The collar does not take place of "old fashioned training" it only reinforces what your dog allready knows!!!! I used my collar on our Weim for 3 years and I can honestly say I can not remember the last time I had to shock the dog, and we hunt/train at least 2x weekly. I can stop her on a dime with a tone/whistle or hup command, she will hear the tone/whistle now and turn and wait for a hand or verbal signal. With the very little training knowledge I had 3 years ago I know I could of never accomplished this without the use of a shock collar. Good luck Spinach....

[Benny]

First off, White tip I was not asking that type of opinion.

Secondly I absolutly do not intend to buzz the crap out of any dog.
I am going to follow the Richard Wolters method to a T!!!But as some one else said, there are times when the dog will decide to chase the darn rodents or go after a missed duck and will not stop till the object is out of sight or worst.

I have hunted with many people and thier dogs, the ones trained with a collar are no less loving or scared of the owner than the ones trained with the so called loving your dog to death method.In fact, the ones with the collar training only need to here the pager beep and they are on the brakes, but on the ground!The ones with loving intentions may stop if they hear the masters voice or wistle.

I do though apreciate the concern of abuse, but please don't even think I will ever abuse my animals.I grew up with almost every consevable domestic farm animal there is, I have never been mean to any animal.

I simply want to make sure the dog understands that the two bleets of the whistle mean "STOP", not keep running .

Any way, I have been leaning toward the Tri Tronics just because they are well known and seem to be every where.So getting parts ,accessories, and support should be easy.I also like the model with the variable stimulous, that way if it only takes a little flick to stop the dog that's all I will use.But the voice, whistle comands are more important to me.

Benny

[Surface Tension]

whitetip, Cabin Fever getting to ya?
Lets not jump to the conclusion just because a guy uses an E-collar that they plan to fry their dog with it. Benny sounds like he's headed in the right direction.

[spinach]

Benny, also with the tri-tronics sport 60 you can purchase the accessory beeper that straps right on to the e-collar itself, when and if you ever need a beeper for the dog. I also think it sounds like you have did your homework on collars and will be sucessful in your training. Too many people only see the negative side of things in life, but look at all the positives you will get. #1 A well behaved and obedient dog. #2 You control the dogs safety and can keep him away from any dangerous situations if needed. Hope this helps... Spinach

[Mr. Pike1]

farginicehole, I have a black lab with a sheppard mix who was a definate alph male as a pup. Traning a dog to do anything all comes down to conditioning. You need to identify the behavior you wish your dog to perform or not perform to illiciate a conditioned response. The behavior you identified of chasing a rodent can easily be trained by using a whistle. The blowing of the whistle or the shock of the collar will cause the same desired result which is to stop the behavior. It may take a little more patience but you will get the desired result. Hitting a child when your angry at their behavior will get the results you desire but again not the option I personally would select.

[This message has been edited by Mr. Pike1 (edited 01-11-2004).]

[Fish On! Guide Service]

Strap-on an E-collar and let me know how it feels

[irvingdog]

I would never, and I mean NEVER, hurt my dogs. I don't use pain as a training tool. It is less effective, and just plain cruel. Plus, some of my dogs are butter-soft (springers) and some rock hard (GWP). That said, I've given myself the buzz many times. And I've felt it at higher levels than I'd ever use on the dog.
Alpha dogs bite the neck of subordinates to give them corrections. Hard.

How cruel!!!!!

[scotty18]

Hi everybody, I for one am mixed on the e-collar issue. I don't like them because I had a dog ruined by a "pro?" trainer. On the other hand once you've put the time in training your dog "old school" then condition to collar for safety is a good thing. Which I am doing with my pup. A e-collar is a tool just like a hammer or knife. It can and does get miss used. For those of you that think a e-collar is capable of electrocuting a dog you should try one. It's really not to bad. When it's in the hands of idiots dogs get hurt.

Scotty

[LABS4ME]

FOGS...That is actually something I recommend to everybody who uses a collar...Zap yourself at all the different settings so you know exactally what you'll be applying to your dog. I know that a 2 or 3 in tri-tronics will likely resolve 90% of all the situations I'll see. A 3 is like taking a rubber band and snapping it on your wrist, uncomfortable, but hardly painful. 2 is like a good static shock.

I've trained many, many dogs, and collars used correctly have no bearing on how the animal "feels" about you! They do not have the power of reason to figure out it's you that is pushing a button umpteen yards away from them. They in fact feel that it is an act which they are committing that is causing them discomfort (if it's pain, you're using to high of stimulation), much the same as running head long into barb wire. Do it a couple times and they no longer will do it as the negative re-inforcement has now settled down into their grey matter. In fact I have had better luck training "soft - timid" dogs with a collar on very low stimulation as I no longer need to discepline them. That leaves my role as a postive re-inforcement giving the dog more confidence in me and obeying me. The worse thing you can do with a collar is put it on and start burning. Condition the dog right and he has no way of even remembering that a collar was placed on him (again they can't reason). Put the collar on him for several days (leave the tranmitter at home) when training. Each time you place the collar on throw a fun bumper or ball a couple times. Always do this even when hunting and every time training. He will now associate the collar to mean something good. You literally will see dogs bouncing up and down happy when they see their collar. Eventually work the corrections in, but only after you're sure you know that they understand the command you gave and they are disobeying it. NEVER raise your voice when using the collar.

With proper use they are the most important tool we have for producing top quality gun dogs, used incorrectly the animal should be taken from it's owner! (though it doesn't matter if they use the collar, a whip, cattle prod, stick etc. will do the same thing, these are the same people who will abuse there dogs with watever is available. Just as taking guns away from people doesn't insure less murder..there's always knives, clubs, hammers etc.)

Hope this helps clear up a little confusion...

Good Luck! Ken

[Guest]

The rodent chasing scenario was just one example that came to mind, and yes, we do much training (both field and obedience) using a whistle, clicker, treats and other positive reinforcement techniques. Guess if we were as good as you, Mr. Pike, we would have no need for the e-collar. I won't get into more debate about the merits of the collar, because others such as Benny, irvingdog, Scotty18 and Labs4me did a great job already. And Fish On! Guide Service, I make it a practice to test the thing on myself before strapping it on my dog. Even test it turned all the way up, which is 1.5-2x higher than I would ever set it on the dog. As for burns and scars?! Mine sure isn't capable of that level of power and I sure wouldn't use one that was! If any dog "needed" that kind of correction, there are obviously other more serious training issues with the owner and the dog (necessarily in that order).

[Guest]

Oh yeah Benny, we have a DT. I like the fact that it has a long range, you can change the stimulation level from 1 - 20 and go from "vibrate only" to "vibrate and stimulate" to "stimulate only" right on the remote, and it has NiMH rechargeable batteries in both the collar and remote. What I don't like is that after about a year and a half (and we didn't have to use it much), we had to send it back because the stimulation quit working. It cost about $90 to fix, if I remember correctly, and after another year, it's working very intermittently. Guess I wouldn't recommend one of these! The guy that runs the field training school, who specializes in field champion English springers, highly recommends the Dogtras. I have a friend that has one of the higher-end TriTronics, and he likes it, but has also had to have it repaired at least once. Good luck!

[scotty18]

This fall while trainig my pup, after long discussions with my trainer, I decided it might not be a bad idea to atleast condition my pup to the e-collar for safety. This took a lot of trust on my part. One of the things the trainer did was have me put the electrodes in the palm of my hand and let me feel the strength of shock the collar gave. This helped me to change my mind about e-collars. The person with the controller in their hand makes it a good or bad tool.

Scotty

[Mr. B]

I have tried all the setting on my e-collars on myself before I ever thought about using it on my dog.

My lab is only a year and a half but I hardly use my e-collar. When I mention it is time to go out she runs tot he door and can hardly wait for me to put the collar on and take her out.

I have had a few run ins with those thinking the e-collar is inhummane and with the exception of one after talking with them they if not agreed with the collar atleast were not as negative. You can check back in my other posts to read about the one anti that got really upset about the e-collar.

Just remeber the collar is a tool not the answer.

[scotty18]

Ok here's my wish for some day when I have the money. I would like to get a e-collar/controller that will operate bird launchers, dog silloettes for backing, etc. I know innotek makes a unit like this, but from using their products in the past, they are not good. I'll wait until Tri-tronics or Dogtra make something similar. I would like to add a beeper to that also. I just sold my last e-cooler and I don't know yet if I'll replace it. I still say there is no substitute for putting in the time with your dog. I learned the hard way!

Scotty

[Esoxmn]

If you refer to it as a "shock collar" mabee you dont need one

[bigdog]

I have a Tri-tronics, I think it is a Upland model. Had for 3 years but haven't used it yet. Bought it mainly for the feature of a locator beeper that you could activate remotely. Debated using it on my last dog but after researching the collars and knowing that I can loose my temper at times, decided to have a pro introduce the dog and myself to the collar. Talked at length with Tom Dokken but didn't have the funding so the collar is still on the shelf.
My advice is to know yourself and spend the time learning how to train using the collar before trying it out, or invest in the Pro rather than risk ruining the dog.

[This message has been edited by bigdog (edited 01-12-2004).]

[Teach-D]

Whitetip is exactly correct. I do not think that people that use these devices in any way harm the dog's, (or at least 90% of them). I have been hunting with people that have them on their dogs, and people that don't have them on. Yheir is not a huge difference in the field. My cousins that are avid hunters have used them but no longer do. They still hunt with people that do it is a personal choice. If you work with the dog enough no matter how "knuckleheaded," the dog is a collar as this is absolutely unnecessary. Ninety percent of this is obedience training at a very young age, NOT hunting training obedience training. The hunting part of things have been there and will be there. I live in South Minneapolis and have a black lab that I have trained myself. Ninety percent of the training was done in the city limits taking the dog for walks on a leash and getting the dog used to commands that would be used in the field, (only a couple to keep it simple). I spent a day or two exposing the dog to gun sounds and equating that sound to fun, animals, retrieving, etc. Shock collars are not bad, but by no means are necessary!!

[LABS4ME]

Teach...describe "Harm"? Wanna come over and see my "Harmed" dogs? I train with a collar and occassionally I have to hunt with a collar and no matter what any one wants to say, the fact remains you WILL have a more dependable dog! Period! Why do all the reputable trainers use them? It's not to cookie cutter the dogs through a program... you'd actually do that without a collar and blame the faults on the dog. A lot of dogs that go through finished training will hav 6-12 months in with a pro, so it is not a short cut. Plain and simple in the WRONG hands, it can be a tool which is mis-used. But to blame it on the e-collar is like blaming a skil saw for cutting off your finger, when in reality it was you who wasn't using it correctly.

I know this is a fairly futile attempt to sway those who don't know the merits of a collar... but educating yourself on them and their use would be beneficial before faulting those who do use them. To generalize or styereotype (you stated 90%)all who use them and say they inflict pain and/or harm shows your complete ignorance on the subject...Some people will hold their dogs to a higher standard and demand excellence. I have friends who do not use collars and while their dogs are good hunters they by no means are in the truest sense "finished". even one break a day in the field can mess up an afternoon's hunt as birds bust out of range but 90% of the day went well...still doesn't sound all that successful.

Carry On! Ken

[This message has been edited by LABS4ME (edited 01-13-2004).]

[Teach-D]

Labs4me, I agree with you don't be so defensive!! I never said I had a problem with these devices. I said I think these devices in no way "harm" a dog, unless obviously it is used in the wrong manner. It seems to me you may be ASSuming that I have a problem with people using these as training devices. That is absolutely NOT the case! From my experiences in the field with my dog and other, "professionally," trained dogs that have these devices on it is six of one and a half a dozen of the other, (if you know what that means). It means they are not tatamount to having a great dog. I understand "professionals" use them I grew up about five miles from a well renowned trainer, (actually has many articles in local outdoors periodicals) that does use them. I have no basis to question the fact that he does use them and why he chooses to use them. I do know this if enough time is spent with the dog and some basic things are done with the dog at a young enough age these devices are absolutely not necessary. What did people do before these were invented? I am sure the quality of hunting dog before these things were invented pales in comparison to present time field "wizards" ?? In fact I will have one wrapped around my dogs neck when we are afield next year, if things go as planned I can have her make me a sandwich and fetch me a soda after the hunt!!

[duckbuster]

Teach: The bottom line is this: Things get better with time!!! Dogs are better today because of them, it's just that simple!!! Yesterday's baseball player would not be in the same class as today's. Rocket Richard would not be in the same class as Marian Gaborik. If you truely believe that a dog without the use of a collar is going to be as good as one with then I'm sorry to inform you but you are WRONG!! It isn't even close.