scotty18

[BDR]

I am very interested to know more about the circumstances of your dog getting trained(ruined) by a "pro". I would also like to know exactly who it was, so I can beware!! If you don't want to post here and warn everyone but are willing to share send me an E-mail [email protected]. Thanks!!

Brian

[scotty18]

Bigdog, I will be going back to my new pro later this month. We are going to start force retrieve training. As you probably know setter are not very good natural retrivers. I know what you mean about your learning expierience. I was making a lot of mistakes in the past. I WILL NEVER EVER LEAVE MY DOG TO BE TRAINED BY SOMEONE ELSE AGAIN. I'm just thankfull there are trainers that are willing to do one on one training.

Thanks, Scotty

[duckbuster]

Scotty18: I would like to start by saying I don't mean to get anybody upset with me especially with what took place on another thread. So please don't take this the wrong way.
I have been around labs my entire life, been around retriever trials for close to 30 years and because of that also around Pro trainers for the same amount of time.
I would like to know the name of the trainer you used as well, if you wouldn't mind shooting me his/her name I would appreciate that.
Training of a dog is a process. It is done over a period of time. There are 3 steps in that process; 1)BASICS 2)TRANSITION 3)ADVANCED. Any trainer you go to that has an assistant with a puppy generally the assistant will always do most of the BASICS. Your sit, stay, heal, here and your force fetch. When you start getting to your pile work the Pro might step in from there. When the collar conditioning starts that for sure will be done by the pro. The conditioning takes several weeks. You just don't slap a collar on a dog and start nicking them. It takes time to build up the amount of pressure a dog can take, each dog by the way is total different in regards to how much or little it can take.
I don't feel the mistakes you mentioned were mistakes at all.
I think the biggest mistake you made and it's a mistake made by many,many hunters. That mistake is leaving a dog with a pro for 1 month picking it up and thinking ever things is great. "I sent my dog to a pro for a month so I will have the best dog in the swamp" WRONG it doesn't work that way.
It may take your dog a week or 2 just to feel comfortable with it's new surroundings.
I will close with 2 remaining thoughts. 1)Don't get me wrong here there are definitely some bad pro's out there who should not be doing what they are doing. 2)If you are thinking of sending your dog to a pro for a month don't waste your money. You will be cutting the dog short and the trainer short from completing what they have set out to do.
I hope this won't set off a fued among some of us. Please send the trainers name to me at [email protected]
THANK YOU & GOOD LUCK

[Zarkohl]

Great, now you guys now have me totally freaked out. I was all set to send my 11-month old lab to a trainer for a 12-week gun dog course., The dog will be staying with the trainner the entire time. The trainer does want me participate and will go out in the filed with me, but not for the first three weeks. Is this something I should avoid and is a waste of money? From the last post, I am not shure if you are saying NEVER leave your dog with a trainner or that 1-month is not enough time to do an effective job. Thanks for your replies, Jim

[bigdog]

I think the main point is to check references and take a hard look at the kennel/trainer before leaving the dog.

It takes more than a month to get a trained dog. My bad experience was when I took a 2 year old dog to a trainer for some work on hand signals, etc. He insisted the dog be force broke, that would be the first month and I was to stay away during that time, the additional training was to be 2-3 months long. I wouldn't do that again. After the month I met with the dog/trainer and based on how the dog reacted and appeared, I took the dog and left. This Pro was in St. Cloud at a gun club. He is no longer working.

I don't use Pro trainers anymore but may in the future. If I ever decide to use the E-collar I have, I'd definately work with a pro. One I would consider is Tom Dokken, spoke with him at length when I bought the collar but funds ran short so I put it on a shelf. Another great trainer is Mike Schulenberg at Wings and Whistles in Watertown. He was the one that first worked with me, I would trust leaving my dog with Mike. I met him in 1985/86 before he was training as a profession.

[This message has been edited by bigdog (edited 01-09-2004).]

[scotty18]

Wow I hope I didn't make a mess of thing. duckbuster, I take no offense. I look at it I'm here to learn, good or bad. Zarkohl don't get to concerned. I wrote about one experience in millions that people have with their dogs. I'm sure my problem was isolated. I feel I was unperpared for I did 4 years ago. I did no reference checking, I never called about my dog, just dumb stuff. From what I found out since it was the "assistant trainer" that did the bad stuff. HE has since moved on. I know the 3 steps to training. But my question did that assistant? When I dropped my lab pup off the assistant DID strap a e-collar to her neck. I started to question this and was ushered off to see the "pro?" and write my check. Maybe it's a case of bad management. I didn't expect to get a finished dog back, but I didn't expect to get a dog we had to drug back. For the first week it was touch and go. The vet even brought up the possiblity of putting her down. I still don't feel confortable giving the name yet, like I said, I have to live with these people. Now I compare the experience I had this fall with my new trainer. It's worlds apart. I have become friends with him and we have gone hunting together. He is concerned with my pup and our progress, not just a number. After each day of training he gave us work to do at home. He would also get after me if we didn't do it. All that care by my new trainer is the reason my Llewellin is doing so well.
Ok I hope I'm not offending anyone, I just wrote about my experience. But then I don't mind a little debate now and then either. If I didn't reply to the first post, we wouldn't have gotten all this good information. It's good to communicate. Where else would I get to share this stuff. Bitch to my buddies over beers? I gave that up a long time ago. As far as those other posts, that's part of interacting with people. And it's sure a lot more interesting than reading fishing reports. Were all here because we love hunting and our dogs. Lets keep going and throw them smoking hot topics in there to keep things interesting. I seen about all the "Hunting with Hank" I can handle.

Ok I'm climbing off my soap box now before someone knocks me off.
Scotty

[Zarkohl]

Are there any resources for checking out dogt trainers? (i.e. like certifications, associations or boards, . . .) I don't to post names and stuff, but I would like to check out the trainer before he takes my dog for 12-weeks.

[scotty18]

Ask your trainer for a list of clients. Ask for good and bad. Call them. Ask them if they know anybody who has work with that trainer. Call them. The trainer may or may not give you a truthful list. A good trainer will. That's what I did with my new trainer. I knew him, we shot on the same sporting clays team. When I decided to get a new dog I was set on using him. I still called everyone I knew that had dogs trainer by him. I called and got a list from him. I even called other trainers I have met. To a person, they all gave good referenses. I wasn't going to make the same mistake twice. I just about crapped when I called to set up the start to training, and he said he never trained a pointer before!!!!! Well I listened to the people and things worked out fantastic. He knows a lot of other trainers so when we ran into a question we didn't know he called them. Already made reservations to train my next Llewellin. I wouldn't be supprised when he make his new business cards he added pointer training.

Scotty

[duckbuster]

Zarkohl: If you are considering a trainer do the 3 month deal or don't do it at all. What I meant by the 1 month comment was it is just not enough time to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. The comment you made about the trainer not wanting you around for the 1st 3 weeks is common. They always are looking for owner participation, in fact most will demand that of you. Their thinking is that they want you to leave a few months later using the same techniques so that you will not confuse your dog. Consistence is the key, like an earlier post stated you can't let something go today then punish the dog for the same action tommorrow.
Interacting with your pro can do nothing but help, hey this is their job,it's what they do every day. Let them educate you as well as your dog!!!
GOOD LUCK

[scotty18]

BDR, I'll start out by saying I won't name the trainer because I have to do business and live in the same town. Also since this happened the "assistant" that caused all the problems is gone, solving the problem. I hope what I post will help everyone.
4 years ago I bought a lab puppy to replace a chessie that died suddenly. I have always trained my own dogs and have done a poor job, so I wanted to have this one professionally trained. I went to a local but nationally known trainer to have this done. I went in thinking the "pro" did the training. 1st mistake. When I set up the training I wasn't specific about what I wanted done. 2nd mistake. All I told them was I liked to hunt ducks. 3rd mistake. So a month later I went to pick up this wonderfully trained dog, and what I got was a robot so messed up in the head we had to dope her up just to keep her from walking across the ceiling. The story ends ok, I didn't hunt her because everytime I went near her with a e-collar she would just drop to the ground and shake. She ended up being the best "family dog" I've ever had. I have 3 girls so that's important. 2 years ago she was diagnosed with mild hip displatia ended her hunting.
I hope this helps, I would still reconmend the trainer knowing the assistant is gone. I didn't know what I was doing and learned a expensive lesson. This fall I took my Llewellin setter pup to a different pro. I have known this trainer for years, but I still got references. I did one on one training with him. Now I have the dog I wanted 4 years ago, and I learned a lot in the prosess. I didn't use a e-collar for training. We went old school. I have since done a little collar training, but I had the controller in my hand, not the trainer. My Llewellin doesn't need the e-collar but I wanted him conditioned for safety commands(recall).
Thing I have learned. I will leave the training to the pros, but I will be there during the whole prosess. I will not ever leave my dog even overnight with a training facility. I will do my home work before going to another trainer.
We all live and learn. I learned the hard way. I hope this doesn't cause any contraversy, we've all seen so of the posting lately. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST TRAINING WITH A E-COLLAR, IT'S JUST NOT FOR ME. I'm just trying to pass along some of my expieriences.
I'm done, I could write books about all the horrible stuff that has happened to me with dog. I won't, but I will pass a few stories if anyone is interested.

Good Luck, Scotty

[bigdog]

I also worked one-on-one with a pro and my first dog. What a learning experience for me, I think he trained me more than the dog. Was an excellent way to start out.

I later had a bad experience with the same dog and a different trainer when they talked me into leaving the dog for a month to force break. Made some of your same mistakes. It adversely affected the dog but I was able to work around the problems. I guess the lesson is to be very aware of what is going on with your dog and do some homework.

[LABS4ME]

Z...just ask for references if you are nervous. If it is reputable kennel/trainer you shouldn't have problems. Discuss what you're looking for in your dog, and the techniques they will use to achieve this. DO NOT hound the trainer. I know people who have called the trainer every other day and eventually they just have the client pick up their dog. The 1st 3 weeks without you are to get the dog in training mode. With interuptions from the owner it just confuses the dog more. After this they generally will have you come by every 1-2 weeks to work with them and your dog so you get a feel of what you need to do to continue the training once you get your dog back. I agree 3 months is about the minimum amount of time to get decent results from a pro. For more advanced work this can go upwards of 5-6 months. With their practices and time allottments to the dogs and their grounds, the 12 weeks they have your dog would probably equal 6 months training for the ametuer. They an also work through problems much quicker and with less confusion for the dog.

Good Luck!

Ken

[BDR]

Scotty, Thanks for responding! Didn't mean to put you in the hot seat, and I can understand you not wanting to give names. No problem. Thanks

Brian

[Swamp Scooter]

Z. If you need some more information on people in you r area send me a note. I used a trainer up there and had great results. I am in total agreement with the one month is NOT enough plan. in 3 months you will be amazed at the performance of the dog and their ability to ge the tasks done. This does not mean you are done training. You then need to work them and finish them according to their initial training.

[email protected]