ATV's and Grouse Hunting

[Wobbler]

I am starting a new thread because of some of the views expressed in the grouse report section on ATV's.

I do not want to stir the pot but some comments on this posting have me a little fired up. I guess I am "one of those guys who has a wheeler with a shotgun on it". I am one of those guys who might see a grouse on a dirt road in my truck and try to get it, I am one of those guys who uses a dog and walks trails, and I am one of those guys who walks alone down a old logging road.

I would be the first person to say that if someone is doing something illegal like throwing trash, using an uncased gun on an ATV, or being unethical and passing someone already walking the trail, turn them in or let them know they are doing something wrong.

I feel that some of us who use dogs or walk trails by ourselves think we are so much better than those with ATV's. Technically, we who use dogs have more in common with ATV hunters then we think.

Yes ATV's use gas, are motorized and cover two to four times more ground then walkers. Yes some people who ride them ruin roads, trails, or destroy trees or other grasses and shrubs. Yes sometimes they are unethical and pass people on trails when someone was already on the trail first.

BUT, and I am going to play devil's advocate here so ATV's aid in getting grouse because they cover more ground than walkers but what about a DOG! Why do we use dogs? To chase, to make them jump up, to track them, to retrieve them, to find them when they go down, to cover more area then you could by yourself.

So lets ban the ATV's what do you think is next? Is it fair to chase grouse with dogs? Some people might see this as an advantage that is unfair. You can't use a dog deer hunting, bear hunting, or moose hunting because it is not fair to the animals we are hunting. Using a dog is an advantage versus busting brush yourself.

I am not here to stir a debate. But we as hunters are sometimes our own worst enemies. I know there are people out there (the Anti hunting groups) who are proabably out there laughing at us because we are restricting ourselves. Once the ATV's go the anti's will want to pass laws saying things such as no dogs because they destroy the pristine woods or if dogs are allowed then you need to bring a pooper scooper and bag so the woods was the same way it was before we walked through there or say that chasing birds with dogs is cruel to the grouse and then should not be allowed.

My point here is if someone breaks the law turn them in. If someone is unethical let them know if you can. Last, be careful what you wish for. It may happen someday that ATV's will not be allowed than dogs might not be too far behind! That is my 2 cents.

[This message has been edited by Wobbler (edited 09-23-2003).]

[Dave]

Wobbler,
It's good to see you're looking at the whole picture of other recreations rather than just a little section that you enjoy; like others often do.

For some who think an ATVer should turn around when on a public trail, I ask a couple questions.

What if I'm out scouting a deer area I've hunted for several years and that trail goes to the area?

What if my young boys are following me and I have their BB-guns in my rifle gun case mounted on my ATV? (I haven't bird hunted for 10 years)

If we're just riding along, without any gun case strapped on, that's ok to slowly pass you and be on our way?

What happens to the birds we see on/along the trail and when we look back, the bird is still there and didn't fly away?

How about the birds that just fluttered in about 10 yards off the trail into the actually woods?

Where would you be walking/hunting, if no ATVs made and kept that trail clear?

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 09-23-2003).]

[Wobbler]

Dave,
Those are very good questions. I guess where I hunt it has never been a problem with walkers and ATV's. I hunt where nobody hardly ever walks and it is all trails created by ATV's. I know there are 3 trails that I maintain/opened up and it has created wonderful grouse habitat and the grouse have flurished. Those nice little tote/logging roads are so good because ATV's keep them opened up. I have not grouse hunted this year yet because of a new baby but plan on hunting hard in October. My dad saw over 20 birds doing a combination of ATV, dog and putzing around in the woods. The one great thing about grouse hunting is everyone can choose their way to do it and to me who cares which way if people follow the rules. Like I was told one time by a man wiser than me who has used an ATV for over 20 years. When they start making walkers carry a case, have to unzip the case when they see a bird, load the gun, and be 20 yards from their dog or where they were standing when they saw the bird then hunters will understand why it is not EASY like some people say to hunt from ATV's. I know there are people out there who don't do that or follow the rules. I do and I think we are restricted enough to give others a chance or give the birds a chance.

[Dave]

That's what it's like in my area(s). I come across some bird hunters once in awhile and so many trails meet and split. There's only one parking area so all each knows, there's somebody out in the woods.

[setterguy]

Now this subject is not new and the debate will probably go on for years and years. I have been grouse hunting for years behind a dog and one thing bothered me in an earlier post. The comparison between dogs and atvs just doesn't hold water. The only similiarity that they have is that they allow you to cover ground more quickly. Man has been hunting with a dog for centuries, atvs for maybe 20 years. Dogs do not cause damage to the forest, hunting with a good dog greatly reduces the chance of a lost cripple, and greatly increases the chance for a good clean kill shot. I know atvs are legal, and if someone is riding and hunting legally then I have no problem with that, but comparing dogs and atvs? I don't think its close.

[Wobbler]

Setterguy,
I appreciate your response and being the moderator I respect what you are saying. Like it or not using a dog like an ATV covers more ground, chases down the prey, and is a nonhuman way to persue and shoot more game. Remember I said I have hunted with dogs too. Like what was mentioned before the 20 yard rule was meant to penalize ATV's but surprise all motorized vehicles are included.

The past practice of hunting with dogs to scare up or hunt over has gone on for 100's of years. You are right that ATV hunting has been going on for only a little over 20 years. What makes it right to hunt with dogs? Past practice? How long does it take for something to be considered past practice? Since I have been hunting it has been ok to use an ATV to hunt. However, as you look at what has been said about ATV's (ruining trails, driving where they are not supposed to, littering, etc.) to the ANTI hunting/leave nature alone I don't think there is much difference. There are lots of groups out there who think shock collars on dogs is cruel and inhumane. That chasing birds with dogs is bad. That the woods are not being leftt alone. Heck even hunting in general is bad to some. I guess what I am trying to say is that we as hunters need to be sure we don't handcuff or shoot ourselves in the foot and say it is not fair to hunt from ATV's because they cover too much ground but it is ok to chase down and cover more ground with dogs versus walking by yourself. Both are methods which increase the success rate of seeing birds and bagging birds versus walking by yourself.

[setterguy]

I agree with everything you said, however I think the biggest difference is this, me hunting with my dog does not affect someone hunting without one. Whereas a person on an atv can affect many. I never said it wasn't fair to hunt from an ATV, if you can afford it and follow the rules by all means cruise away. I don't necessarilly agree with the practice and if it ever came up for vote I would probably vote against them. That is just my personal opinion. Now if someone has a disability or something preventing them from walking fine, let them ride. I just think that in this crowded world we live in, the forests are one place that I wish I could take a walk and not worry about being run over. The fact of the matter is that this debate will probably never end. I will always walk and some will always ride, we are stuck with a finite amount of land to share and we are going to have to figure out how to get along!!!!

[DinnerPail]

First I would like to say that I am an ATV owner and second I don't like to use it for grouse hunting. Feel I have better succes when walking. When your on an ATV I feel you spend more time concentrating on driving instaed of hunting. When walking you use your sense of hearing, a big asset as you hear things before you accually see then alot of times. So personaly I feel the ATV hunters don't shoot any more birds then the rest of the hunters, just hunt that way because they can. I agree is not fun when you're walking a trail and have a bunch of ATV's go by, but if they're obeying the laws they have as much right to be there as I do, if not stop them, talk to them, and if you feel the need please turn them so some thing can be done about it. Everyone has there own way of doing things and sometimes these differences clash. All of us hunters need to work together, get along and perserve the sport we love.

[Wobbler]

One thing I have noticed where I hunt is that some trails have signs that say no motorized vehicles allowed. Great! I won't ride it. I hope nobody else does either. I am not here saying what is right or wrong I am just trying to keep hunting the way I like it. Every year I worry some anti group is going to get something passed and then say we got this practice stopped now what about this. I know everyone around here on this forum is kind and follows rules. I will say though I see more grouse riding ATV's then walking by myself. I can cover way more ground and have a higher chance of seeing more birds not necessarily bagging more birds than walking. My dad emailed me and he has 7 for the year including 3 today. He has seen over 40. There are lots more grouse out there than people think. Being that I live quite a distance from my hunting shack I can't wait to get out there and hear that FFFFFFFFFFF when they take off! I guess people that never get to have their heart race when they take off have never experienced how much fun it is to hunt grouse!

[Redlantern]

Wobbler, I don't think being legal and being ethical are always the same thing. At this time, it's legal to use an atv to hunt. I'd like to see it banned. If that means a person can't stop for a bird while driving in their car or truck, so be it. I hunt north of Grand Marais mostly and have become so frustrated when a road hunter won't get out of the way as I'm going to the cabin because he thinks I'll get his bird before him. I've had them stop and talk to me while I'm hunting, telling me how much they love being out in the fresh air. Then they leave me with a lung full of their exhaust. Real nice. I've had them tell me they like the peace and quiet of the woods. Well, some of them atv's ain't so quiet.
As far as comparing them to dogs, I don't see the similarity. I don't have a hunting dog so I don't know if I'm off base here, but it seems to me that one has to put in a fair amount of time raising and training a dog. Do you need to do the same with a vehicle?
I do agree with Setterguy, I doubt if this will ever reach a compromise where everyone is satisfied.
Good hunting.

------------------
Erik

[This message has been edited by Redlantern (edited 09-23-2003).]

[duckbuster]

Wobbler I think you have made alot of very good points. One thing I would have to dispute as did setterguy is the comparison of ground being covered. It is physically impossible for a walker with a dog to cover as much ground as an ATVer. With that said I'm NOT against ATVers in the woods. What it comes down to for me is consideration for my fellow hunter. Yes the woods are for everybody to share but I just can't help but to go back and think of how it was before ATVs. What I mean is in the pre-ATV era you or should I say I never ever had another walker come down the same trail I was on at that time. Why do so many feel they have to come down the trail when they know a hunter is already there? I understand an earlier post stating that some trails inter-twine and have multiple exits but not where we are. It's just frustrating I quess. I'm only looking for a little bit of courtesy is all.
GOOD LUCK & GOOD HUNTING

[hunt4food]

I think the main message that setterguy intended to get across is that we as hunters, fisherman, sport shooters, trappers, atv'ers etc...will never all agree on everything. That's ok. We can agree to disagree on all of the above topics, but let's not go picking sides and attempting to stop, change or "vote down" these methods just because we feel it's "not the way I do it". Setterguy is right. we are our own worst enemies. for example: I for one don't care for spear fishing because I prefer to Catch-N-Release those big pike to catch another day, but I am never going to agree or even suggest to ban spear fishing. History tells us that allowing any restrictions on our sport only tighten the noose a little tighter around our own necks. I totally respect the non-atv hunters and I also totally respect the ATV hunters. I do both at times. We as outdoorsman are much stronger together than we are in small groups. Let's not bicker with each other and instead focus that great energy towards protecting our hobbies as a whole. The anti-hunters just to name one group are working hard in an attempt to get us to side against each other and I think we all agree that this can have a negative impact on us all. This is a great forum and sounding board for all of us to use and it also works well to help keep us orgaized and focused on the same values and ideas if only we choose to.

[duckbuster]

hunt4food ABSOLUTELY GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Benny]

Some one posted that man has hunted with dogs for centries, yes this is true.
But so has man hunted with natures ATV for centries, the horse of coarse
I won't get in to depth of this debate as it holds to many memories from past debates I have had on this very subject.Just wanted to point out that history can show many things simular to the present.

Thanks, Benny
Benny

[cashcrews]

I agree with everything that has been mentioned so far. I do not own an ATV, in fact I've never hunted from one. I typically walk through the woods, walk on logging trails, or "road hunt" from my vehicle.

As long as what someone is doing is legal, then I think we as hunters need to be very careful about what we say in regards to others. If their is an obvious violation of the law, that individual needs to be reported. If there's something unethical going on, let that person know about it if you can. Everyone does things a little different from the next guy, and if we get to be too much of a "purist" in how we view our activities, it will hurt all hunters, anglers, and outdoorsman--and will likely backfire on your original intent anyway!

One thing that comes to mind is the "20 yard rule" for grouse hunting. I think this was originally designed to go after the small percentage of ATV users who would drive around with loaded shotguns and blast grouse without ever getting off the machine. The people that got this thing going were the "purist walkers". The next thing you know, there's a law in place saying you have to be an unreasonable (60ft.) distance from ANY vehicle. Now we've screwed the ATV'ers, and guys like myself who do about 60% walking but like to take a shot at grouse off the side of logging roads once in a while.

To the walkers--(remember, I do not own an ATV here)--if your trails are literally being overrun by ATV's--stop and talk to the ATV drivers and see if you can't come to an understanding. Or better yet, take a walk IN THE WOODS. Yes, I am actually referring to the notion of stepping off the trail, going in the woods about 100 yards, and slowly creeping through the brush and the trees. I've started doing this, and it's actually kind of fun!

In summary, as long as people are being legal and ethical, let's be real careful before we go and jump on any bandwagon that is against "the other hunters" because ultimately it will be all hunters that suffer.

Cashcrews

[Dave]

It's nice to see everyone acting civil during this. I really would like someone to answer my above questions thou; in regards to meeting a walking hunter on the trail.

Also, in some respect, hunting with a dog does cover similar size areas as an ATV. Think of an ATV going down a trail, if a bird was 10 feet off the trail, I probably wouldn't see it. I'm sure I pass by many birds. On the other hand, would your dog pass it by? I doubt it. How about even just 10 yards into the woods off the trail. Does your dog zig/zag the woods on each side of the trail and pick those birds out, pointing them till you get there? This is just another perspective to think about.

Everyone here is making good points.

[Surface Tension]

I try to steer clear of this subject but since its in a Grouse Hunting forum I'll shoulder the gun and be careful not to shot from the hip.
I personally don't think the words "hunting" and "ATV" belong in the same sentence.

What other game animal is allowed to be pursued with a motorized vehicle?

We have restricted hours for ATVs and Snowmobiles during deer season, I'd like to see this for small game. I do own ATVs and Snowmachines and don't want to see trails closed but the hour restriction I could live with.
Years ago Hunter & ATV conflicts were tolerable. With the recent increased numbers of ATVs on the trails its become a big problem for the hunter.

The ATV community is promoting education on safety and enviormently friendly riding habits along with getting designated trail systems and thats all good but it doesn't address the ATV & Hunter conflict.

Its remarks from ATVers like "if you don't like it get off the trail" that erk me.
Some ATVers don't believe theres any problem at all.

Your right there are groups that want to take away all motors but Its hard to rally with forces that have been a pain in the butt and diminished the quality of my hunt.
No theres no easy solution and this debate will go on and on.

[Wobbler]

It is nice to see that everyone has been civil and I appreciate hearing different points of view. Where I hunt there are lots of people out riding roads in vehicles and road hunting. I guess I have been fortunate to not have had the experiences of some. It is nice to hear that others feel the same way I do about all of us hunters getting along. Lets face it nobody likes having somebody hunt where they like to hunt or walk a trail and somebody has already walked it or an ATV was down it. Thanks for the posts! If you have not noticed I also live in a town where ATV's are made and our city depends on that but I hunt north of Duluth so I know there are many crazy people out there who are unethical and break laws!

[Dave]

"I personally don't think the words "hunting" and "ATV" belong in the same sentence."

I agree.....I think more people are using them together wrongly. I see people using an ATV to just get to a spot, and then walking to hunt; not actually riding and riding till you see some birds on a trail and then hunt after those birds.

I think the ATV/walking hunter conflict is on a much smaller scale then tha ATV land use problem. I don't see one area in life when all problems are addressed/solved at one time.

"Its remarks from ATVers like "if you don't like it get off the trail" that erk me.
Some ATVers don't believe theres any problem at all."

And please, it helps to distinguish between a recreational rider and a hunting rider who's traveling during hunting season, during discussions. There's a big difference in the attitude of the person I'm sure.

Brings up the question, why should a recreational rider (who does not hunt at all) be banned from using public land/legal trails just because you would like to hunt?

[Dave]

After reviewing and thinking, I'd like to add a comment about Redlantern's post.

"At this time, it's legal to use an atv to hunt."

I don't believe that's true. It's legal to use an ATV for transportation during hunting. That's two different meanings. Maybe a guy wants to get away from the short distance walkers and rides three miles back....The bullet still takes the bird down, not the ATV.

[Surface Tension]

Dave, You and I could go in forever and it won't change our opinions. Both Dave and I have had this discussion before to great lengths and I think I can say we both have considered each other opinion with a some what open mind. We've both agreed to disagree.
The battle will never be won on any forum and I'm out of this thread before it sucks me in. Peace, ST.

[Dave]

ST, I agree. But, like others have said thou, I'd hate to see any tactics this battle creates be used in other areas by the wrong people; the people we're all against.

[RePete]

Went back in the woods the past couple of weekends scouting for, and retrieving firewood. Met a few hunters and hikers along the way. Noone seemed bothered I was on an ATV...also, I wasn't bothered they drove their vehicles and parked near my property (on the forest trail).

When I come face to face with the hunters I keep moving in the direction I'm going. Usually stopping to find out how they're doing, and if there are other folks up ahead....or whatever...

If I come up from behind I'll stop and kill the machine (when I need to continue on the trail) and sit for a while, otherwise I'll turn around.

Seems pretty simple to me how you respect other forest users. I don't always care for ATV noise, shooting (target or hunting), fireworks, hootin and hollerin, or littering, but all of these things occur in our forests. What do I do? If the ATV's are legal, No Problem... If the target shooting, Fireworks, or Hootin and Hollerin isn't constant, No Problem... If I see litter, I pick it up. I'll confront people if things are out of hand. It they can't control it I'll contact the LAW.

To date I've never had to contact the law...that's a good sign. I know first hand people in the woods are just trying to have fun.

[protrapper]

I should stay out of this.. First off I like how civil this is also. I am very anti atv for grouse hunting, and driving around in a car or truck picking them off the side of the road. Very unethical and thats the bottom line. Legal or not, ethical or unethical.

The majority of the atv hunters up here are very rude and unethical. {that i see} i am sure all are not like this.

Another thing that bothers me is. When we argue to the public about keeping hunting for the kids and how it's an american heritage.

Well hunting from an atv is not an american heritage. I consider it along the lines of spearing spawning walleyes from a 200 horse 18 foot lighted 30,000 dollar boat.

Just my 10 cents my 2 cents is free...

[Benny]

protrapper, do you use a truck or motor vehical to get to your trap line?
Or to haul those heavey traps down to the pond or creek?

Benny

[Ybone]

What does hauling trapping equipment in a truck have to do with hunting from an atv. I don't think anyone's complaining about using trucks or atvs to haul hunting equipment or to get to your hunting area. We've had this discussion before and someone always brings up the use of hunting dogs. It takes a lot of time and work to train and care for a dog but anyone with the cash can buy an atv and hunt from it the same day and cover at least 5 times as much ground as a hunter on foot.

[Dave]

Come on guys, let's type things clear.
If someone's shooting from the ATV, that's a no-no, period; illegal and unethical.
If someone's riding a trail, spots a bird, follows the law and goes after the bird, it's legal. Unethical? Depends who you ask.
Use a dog unethical? Depends who you ask.

Where's the limit on what we'll use to aid us in hunting? Depends who you ask. IF the wrong people get their way, we'll all be in trouble.

It's quite simple, I think.

[Wobbler]

Dave,
I agree with you on people sitting on their ATV's with a loaded gun and popping them off ATV's. That is a huge NO-NO! I agree with you on that if someone follows the LAW and shoots a bird with the aid of an ATV is lawful and in my eyes ethical.

I see that many hunters who use dogs train them, feed them, care for them all of that. I would know. Anyways like the message that I think most of us here all trying to say is that the more we tighten restrictions on our hunting the more the Anti's win and the more they will try to restrict us even more.

Looking through the posts many dog hunters including myself hate to admit that dogs greatly increase our chances at bagging grouse. I used to have a black lab and my father now has a setter. I have read through the posts with people commenting on all you have to do is buy an ATV then hunt. True. So what! Buy a gun and you can increase your hunting success too. My ATV needs to be fed (gas), groomed (washed) maintained (oil change) and loved (don't let it get scratched if I can help it) just like my dog. All the hours I work to pay for it and take care of it are not like those for a dog but is similar.

You guys will laugh but my toy poodle grouse hunts with me and I never once had to train her or spend time with her how to hunt. She goes in the woods about 20 feet in front of me and works the trail like a champ. She is not gun shy and she even drags the grouse to me when I get lucky and drop one all 8 pounds of her goes and gets it. She also likes to ride on the ATV and just be out in the woods.

The point here is lets hunt, have fun, turn in law breakers, and be ethical out there!

[Guest]

Who's responsibility is it to teach people who hunt to have some etiquette? Do ATV dealers hand something out? When you buy a shotgun, do they hand you a sheet about hunting etiquette? I thought it was nice to see the Star and Trib white something for duck hunting the other day. I just think that many people are out there hunting who didn't learn at a young age and have no clue as of what to do or not do. The fact whether you ride your ATV past someone and they still get a bird doesn't seem to be the point. I think it lessens the total experience by the guy walking with or without a dog. It's nice to be outside away from cars and people and then a guy comes riding by in his ATV. We can have all the habitat in the world, but if people are ignorant to what's right and wrong, hunting won't be as much fun for anyone.

[Dave]

BBP, that's along the same line as a when you're fishing and someone boats close by, or fishes next to ya. That's just a way of life, I guess.
I rather look at my time out in the woods as a glass half full and not half empty. What others do really doesn't bother me unless it's against the law.