Dead walleyes and perch floating in Mille Lacs?

[Guest]

Todays definition of an Indian Reservation--
-A portion of land put together by the U.S. government also including special regulations and rights in the form of apology for the years of unequal treatment native americans received. The reservation shall stay in effect for the sake of human rights activists.

[bturck]

bigguns3: I for one would be very interested in reading the paper that you have prepared. You obviously spent considerable time researching the treaties which allow for our set of circumstances today. I would be more than happy to view your findings with an open mind and most likley be made aware of how our government attempted to pacify the Indians. Do I have to agree with them, absolutley not, but your findings could be very informative. I hope you will consider this request and I for one have no intent to bash you for your diligence.

[wastewaterguru]

Why do I have to apologize?

Did I kill any indians?

I respect that the US made an apology. But to expect the wording and terms of that apology to perpetuate through time.....

So what are we gonna do? Should we have reservations for blacks too?

No, because doing so wouldn't have helped and would only make the prejudices against them stronger. Now they are accepted as equals and even our superiors because they were integrated not separated. I am a strong believer that blacks were treated much worse than the indians ever were. White men killed the indians. Blacks were beaten and enslaved.

The native americans in this country that fight and lobby for the perpetuation of the reservation land will never be citizens of the US and I'm sure they could care less, but I care cause I pay for the roads they use, the military that protects them, and the government that secures their rights as humans.

They don't have any more right to that land than I do to the land in Germany that my forefathers were forced to abandon. You don't see the German government offering me an apology and my own sovereign country inside their borders with no taxes and my own casino.

So are the reservations gonna be maintained forever?

Probably, because no politician would ever go against a strong minority lobbying group, and it's obvious from the responses here that my opinion is likely not the majority consensus.

So what now...I guess the status quo continues and we need to deal with the fact that the DNR at this point has no option other than to maintain the narrow slots to maintain the harvest below the accepted total.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[AWH]

wastewaterguru,

I don't think your opinions are in the minority. I for one, wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. I have never really got too involved in trying to understand all of the treaties or any of that. It just ends up p#SS##g me off too much, that they have the rights that they do in the 21st century, when it is preached so much about giving everyone equal rights.

My only point in my earlier posts is that I don't think the Indians are endangering the Mille Lacs fishery, given the current regulations that they have. As I understand it, the DNR's hands are pretty much tied when trying to do anything in regards to the Indians netting the lake. That's up to the courts. They just have to manage the lake the way they feel is best, given the situation.

An interesting view point that implies that the DNR is mismanaging the lake can be found in Dick Sternberg's study. It really gets you thinking.

AWH

[oscar]

I wonder if the original people that signed the treaties could see the results of their actions, would they still have signed? I read Dick Sternbergs report and thought it was funny that he makes reference to fish taken illegally by indians before the recent court decision. I'm sure others are guilty of this also. It would be nice if we could get some responses from both sides of this issue. It makes for interesting discussion when not everyone agrees with each other. Then again there is nothing wrong with venting every now and then.

[Kidd]

Oscar, glad to hear you, and others, agree that there is nothing wrong with venting every now and then because I am about to do so. I cannot believe the ignorance and prejudice being perpetrated throughout this thread. Statements like wastewaterguru’s about blacks “Now they are accepted as equals”. Give me a break. Have you looked at the employment, or should I say unemployment, figures for young African American males lately? Or how about their graduation, poverty and incarceration rates? Another beauty of a statement “But to expect the wording and terms of that apology to perpetuate through time”. Through time is exactly how long any agreement should last unless both sides come to an agreement to change the intent of the treaty.
So tell me, what about all the Native Americans that do not live on reservations, do not profit from casino money and are, and have been, denied employment throughout all these years based solely on their heritage. What about the entire tribes that have been wiped out by both starvation and the union army intentionally supplying Native Americans with disease-ridden blankets. I can go on and on, and probably should, because people like wastewaterguru and duckunlimited2002 obviously missed school the day it was taught in their history class. And based on duckunlimited2002 sentence structure and poor grammar, he must have missed a whole lot of school.
One last thing wastewaterguru. I do hope your Jewish with the claims your making as to being forced out of Germany.

Signed:
2nd generation Irish American, my family never owned a slave, and never raided an Indian camp.

[Guest]

I agree on the point on ducksunlimted2002's sentences but give me a fricken brake on the rest of your rambling- MC

[Guest]

Kidd,
There is a difference between venting and personal attacks. If you disagree with something that someone else said make your point and leave out the rest of that *#$%! One of the things that I like about this board is that MOST people stick to the topic and leave out the name calling. This is a very passionate subject and both sides have valid points. If you can't make your point with out making derogatory comments about other posters, then please don't post.

Herkey

[Guest]

kid

i disagree with everything you said. thing out blacks not graduating thats there own problem so what are u talking about wastewater made perfect sense of what hes talking about duckunlimited does too so what the **** are u talking about. people are just making there own opinon on this subject and u go all out on that stupid stuff. you must have pms or something. if you cant handle it dont write

[wastewaterguru]

Thank you to the gentlemen for supporting my right to express my opinion.

I do not believe it is the intent of this forum to have religious or ethical debates so I will make my last comment on this discussion by simply defending my point.

I have nothing but love and kindness in my heart for all individuals who work hard to better themselves and provide for their families.

A free ride doesn't help people to help themselves.

Check the statistics....the graduation rate is higher and the unemployment is lower for blacks than it is for reservation born native americans!!!!!!!

I am well aware of the cruelty imposed on these people in our country's past, but the country wouldn't be here if it had acted differently.

As for my grandparents....Jewish.

As for me....nobody's business but mine.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Guest]

I remember saying something about everybody getting all up tight about 2 pages ago on this thread. Take it easy boys. All I was ever talking about was The Chippewa bands surounding the Mille Lacs area. There's no need go bringing up Jews, African Americans, or any other racial comments. But I do recommend backing up what you have to say with credible sources.

[wastewaterguru]

From easily accessed internet resources...

Please refer to the following:

From one national report:

High School Graduation Rates
in the United States
November 2001
Prepared for the Black Alliance for Educational Options
Jay P. Greene, Ph. D.
Senior Fellow,
The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research

“The national graduation rate for the class of 1998 was 71%. For white students the rate was 78%, while it was 56% for African-American students and 54% for Latino students.”

And another article:

“Graduation rates for Indian children show little improvement; Less than half of high school students graduate”
By Jean Pagano - January 18, 2002

”Two years ago, this newspaper presented an article that detailed how Indian control and increased spending were not helping the overall graduation rates among Indian children. While the number of Indian children in public schools increased over the last two years, the percentage of students actually graduating from grade 12 is lower today that it was twenty years ago.
In 1981, according to the then Minnesota Department of Education, there were 10,972 Indian students in state school districts, with 503 Indian students actually graduating from high school. Eighteen years later in 1999, the number of Indian student in state school districts, according to the Minnesota Department of Children, Families, and Learning, had grown 64% to 17,168 Indian students in grades K through 12. The number of graduating seniors in 1999 for Indian students was 532, or roughly the same number as in 1981. If the increase in enrollment in state public schools had been followed by a proportional increase in graduation rates, then approximately 825 Indian students should have graduated in 1999. What we see in the statistics is a group of students stuck with graduation rates of less than 50% and dropout rates that are greater than a third of the enrolled base.
Statistics for the year 2000 are nearly identical to the information presented for 1999. A total of 17,145 Indian students were enrolled in the public schools system in the state of Minnesota, yet only 530 of these students actually graduated from that very same public school system. The issue as to why these numbers do not seem to improve over time given increased funding and increased Indian control will be addressed in a subsequent article.”

And from....
http://www.airpi.org/unemploy.html

"Having a good-paying job is one of the most important components of a community's economic well-being. Joblessness is very high in the American Indian community. To understand just how high, we have to distinguish between two different concepts: unemployment and joblessness.
To be defined as unemployed by the census, a person must be completely out-of-work and must be actively looking for work. The unemployment rate does not include people who want to work but are not actively looking ("discouraged workers"), either because they don't believe that jobs are available or they don't know of any jobs. The joblessness rate, on the other hand, simply indicates how many people between the ages of 16 and 64 were not employed at the time the census was taken. In addition to the "officially unemployed," it includes people who are disabled, retired, attending school full-time, being a homemaker, caring for children or elders, and discouraged workers who do not believe there are any jobs to be found.
Nearly one-fourth (24%) of all American Indian men were officially unemployed at the time the census was taken in 1 990, four times the unemployment rate for white men. In addition, 15 percent of American Indian women were unemployed. Table 6 shows that in most parts of the state, the unemployment rate fell slightly during the past decade. The exceptions were a modest increase for men living in Greater Minnesota and a sharp increase among women in the relatively small St. Paul community.
But while unemployment rates are high, overall joblessness is much more extensive. When the census was taken in 1990, 49 percent of American Indian men 16-64 years old and 54 percent of American Indian women were not employed. (By comparison, 17 percent of white males between 16 and 64 years of age and 27 percent of white females were not employed when the 1990 census was taken.) Comparison of the 1980 and 1990 figures shows that there has been little change in joblessness over the past decade. In many parts of the state, the joblessness rate has gone down, while poverty has skyrocketed."

As another reference, please read this one.
http://www.press-on.net/articles/2-22unemployment.htm

As for the black unemployment rate, it has historically been around twice the national average.

A direct quote from: http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/african/Article_Detail.asp?Article_ID=8835

“In December 2001 the unemployment rate for black workers was 10.2 percent.”

So the reservation Indians are greater than 50% unemployed compared to 10% for blacks and less than 50% of Indians in Minnesota are graduating from high school.

According to the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe website, the average per capita income is a mere $7,000.

My point all along has only been that reservations are not in the best interest of the Indians or the fish in the lake.

But these articles and reports are also only someone’s opinion. So please be nice. I am only putting them here to provide support for the statements I made earlier.

Yes I am an educated person who researches things before making statistical statements.

enough said.

By the way....where are the best places to fish on the south end of the lake?

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 04-18-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 04-18-2002).]

[Kidd]

Wastewater, first off, I now see some readers mistook me as trying to insult the Jewish faith, which simply is untrue, my point in asking if your ancestry was Jewish was twofold.

· The Jewish race was the only race forced out of Germany and you laid claim to being forced out. If you were of some other race your statement would have little merit.
· I was amazed that someone whose own ancestry suffered the same atrocities as Native Americans would be so insensitive towards their plight. Asking the Native American to assimilate into European culture is like asking the Jews to assimilate into Nazi culture.

Enough said about that topic, and my apologies to anyone who I may have offended.

And lastly, thanks for reinforcing my point that America does not view all races as equal.

Now, I’ll get off my soapbox about racial inequities, buy a new plug for my trolling motor, install it and go fishing.

[wastewaterguru]

Thanks Kidd,

We can talk about our religious and political convictions over a beer on the lake sometime.

So you didn't answer my question as to where to fish on the south end of the lake...

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Kidd]

Wastewater, I fish mostly East (Reefs) and North (Sand). The few times I've been on the south side I went with a buddy who launches at a little place by Cove. In fact I think it might be called the Cove resort, I'm sure someone reading this will correct me if I'm wrong. He likes to take the boat straight out from the launch until you get to a nice, but gradual, break. It's big so you can't miss it. We've caught some nice walleye there by drifting and trolling that break. I've also had very good luck during winter on that same spot for nice sized perch and a few bonus walleye's. Good Luck

[wastewaterguru]

Thanks for the info.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Guest]

First of all,I thought this was a thread about dead fish. My thought, whatever the cause for the fish dying,all of us need to be careful when releasing fish, no matter
what the species. As for Native American
rights to spear and net, this land belonged to them long before any old world(European,Asian,African) people ever set foot on this continent.
As for anyone with a beef with that, I have two words:MANIFEST DESTINY.(read your history)
And in conclusion, I am African-American.
I can trace my family since we've been in this country back 9 generations
from myself and 2 since I've been around.
(That's 11 generations for those keeping count. That dates back to the early 1800s.)
I did graduate from high school.(St.Paul Central Class of 1981) I am currently working on a degree in Bio-mechanical engineering. I have been employed since I
graduated high school. And I don't care
one way or the other where you come from, what religion you practice,what race you are,If you can tell me where the fish are
biting, you are a freind of mine.
Just my opinion

[Guest]

Well boys! Man oh Man, this was about dead fish. and NOT by natural causes, the DNR mentioned "unusual", not normal causes of death. Why jumbo perch? Some of perch seen with Aqua View were jumbos. Anyhow, good to see people passionate about something, anything these days other than their 401k's or big tobacco.

Just a quick cold truth here as far as the African, American, Indian and Jewish stuff: I am speaking from a Christian point of view, you may not believe it but its simple and time tested from Adam and Eve. If you a heathen, you get your a$$ kicked and enslaved.........end of story. You dont have to like it, its just the way it is. And yes it will happen to this country if people dont get wise to the fact. I will not happen in our life time, but we will contribute to it for our grandchildren. There are too many people willing to give up freedoms now, too many people that want to "get along"

We are going to kiss the a$$ of those who help kill our people on 9/11 because of oil. Paul Wellstone would rather look at Caribou than protect this country. I can not even buy my kid a shotgun without it being in my name for the rest of my life!

We "welcome" CO's into our fish house?
We allow our government to punish legal companies (tobacco) Make tobacco illegal if it is so bad, but they will not. Too much tax money that needs to go to government hand outs.......and we welcome it.

Bill Gates did not "give" enough to politicians, that was his crime.

Ok....ranting,
summary: to the disgrutled Indians, African americans, jews and Polish, Somali, Swedes, Hatians.....just sit back and watch a country give up its own freedoms and we will be conquered & enslaved. Buy its own people.

Paul Wellstone: Keep your freaking hand out of my wallet, and let my kids pray in school!

Has the lake broken up yet?

[wastewaterguru]

jnam88 and others...

If everyone is in agreement that the indians were here first and therefore they have a "right" to the land, then I suppose we should all pack up and go back to country we came from. Let's just give them back the whole country. The simple fact is that life is not the same for the native americans. They don't have buffalo herds to hunt or migrating elk to hunt anymore. They have already "lost" the key parts of their culture. They are not the same people any more than we are the same people that killed their forefathers.

The only way to make it right (as you all seem to think we "owe" them that) is to give it back to them the same way we found it.

If you're not willing to do that then don't kid yourselves by thinking the reservations are helping. This is goverment housing, not tee-pee's......

We've already urbanized them, now let's integrate them.

You want to know how much the government is spending.......check out this site.

http://www.press-on.net/articles/3-22audit.htm

janm88....different views don't mean a lack of respect or kindness. It can't be easy going back to school after twenty years and I respect that. If the gevernment was giving you $95,000 a year (see above link)for housing/etc., what would be you're driving force to do anything with your life. You worked for what you have because nobody was going to give it to you. You and I both know that if somebody gave us money to live and we worked long enough to buy a boat......we'd never work another day in our lives. Except maybe guiding. I would feel guilty that everyone else in the country was paying taxes so that I could be jobless and still have a nice house and money in my pocket.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 04-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 04-19-2002).]

[SportFishin']

To Kidd & All,

I haven't read this post since it was first posted.WOW we have some passionate people here. I agree that there have been great travisties all over the world.

"Kidd" not just the Jews were forced out of Germany "FYI" Many families like my grandfather's left Germany because thier families were starving to death because of the Nazi Reign over the people of Germany not just the Jews. So I did take a little offense to that statement but apology accepted from the later reply.

Someone else posted that we should pack up our stuff & go home. I'm the first born "American" in my family so if I were to pack up my bags & go home where do I go with no living relatives left in Germany?

But hey enough of that @#$! & back to the topic at hand & the reason this forum is here for All of us to share. Has anyone figured out what has happen to the fish that have been seen dead?DNR reports?Ect? I would like to know further about this topic. Because life with-out fish for fishing would just be plain boring. & I suck at Golf.

Wet a line & Keep it fun!

SportFishin'

[wastewaterguru]

Thanks for the good tone sportfishin.

I suck at golf too but the real reason I fish is that the boat was cheaper than playing golf 2 or 3 days a week.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[wastewaterguru]

Jim,

I agree that the subject matter got out of control. I apologized already and the tone of everyones comments was pretty good I thought. There were statements made at the beginning of the thread that were blatant attacks on native americans as being the cause for the dead fish (that is the topic).

It was doomed from page 1. Next time, please just comment that the subject is out of bounds and close the thread instead of continuing the name calling ("uneducated").

I love talking about fishing and I know I'm hanging my priveledges out there but this topic is not going to lead to anything except heated debates about the DNR, indians, and the US/Minnesota government. Let's just close it and move on to happy thoughts about opening day!

Hey, did you see my walleye on the homepage? Gonna catch some bigger ones in a couple weeks.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[Ole1855]

I might as well throw my 2 cents in as well. I'm not sure how many of you watched the senate hearing back when this whole thing was brewing I happened to watch the whole thing. There was alot of information brought out by both sides, one interesting point was by the Chief/Head of the Red Lake Band, his comments were "don't allow them to desimate the lake, look what's happened to Red Lake, also don't allow the proposed hunting, in the Red Lake area we used to have many deer and grouse, now there are none". What's that say? Also if you read the treaties ( I get all the years mixed up ) I think it was the 1855 or 1857 treaty, It states there will only be one Reservation in the state of Minnesota, and that Reservation will be White Earth. If any Native American wants the rights and privileges that are provided on a Reservation ( hunting and gathering )you must move to White Earth. If you choose not to move to White Earth, then you will not be provided the Reservation rights of hunting and gathering. The government would however deed the land you live on to you, but it does not come with any of the rights associated with a Resevartion. How about that?

[Jim W]

For those of you who are familiar with me on this site what you are about to hear isn't typical.

Keep your NON FISHING uneducated opinions to yourself, or jeopordize future posting capabilities!!! Either some of you are REAL lonely or don't know a D@## thing about fishing!!!!

GO talk to yourself and leave the uninformative, unrelated crap out of hear!!

How soon we forget this is a free site to visit!! Enjoy it and don't destroy the enjoyment for others!!!

NOw, I have to get myself ready to take Gullguide trout fishing in the AM! Don't forget Trout DAy APril 27th at Forestville/mystery cave state park.HEHEHEHHE

Keep the rods bendin'!!!

Jim W

[Ole1855]

Excuse me. I thought this was an open forum, I was not using profanity or vulgarity, just offering up what I learned form the senate hearings. Sorry if I offended you.

[Jim W]

Ole,

Please read my entire post,

"unrelated and uninformative". If your info was related to the topic at hand and to fishing I personally don't have a problem with that.

Open Forum, doesn't necassarily mean Freedom of Speech!!

I guess for the most part, I got tired of reading the BS. If I offended YOU, my apology!!!

BACK to fishing!!!

Jim W