Gill net found on Winnie with rotten fish!

[Big Ick]

I know everyone has heard this story…

A couple of guys go to Red Lake for the winter crappie bite, end up in the wrong area, and wind up losing all of their gear...including their vehicle. The first time I heard this, I was a student at UND. I couldn't understand this, how could they lose all of their stuff just for fishing a lake in Minnesota. They weren't breaking any of the fishing laws. Could that happen, could the law and rules of the Red Lake tribe supercede those of the State government? I knew that many of tribes had lobbied for spearing and netting rights, but I was clueless about Tribal Nations, or any other group for that matter, having a separate government that isn't subject to state law. I couldn’t fathom what my college buddies from “up north” were telling me. I asked them, “You mean to tell me that there wasn’t a thing the state government could do? The state government has no jurisdiction on Lower Red Lake? So, then it’s kinda like a separate, sovereign nation within the U.S.? Do this separate nation still benefit from government programs, military protection, and all the other things that being a US citizen has to offer?” The answer they gave me was a resounding “Yes”.

I realize that college age kids don’t have all the answers, so I’m curious if anyone knows if something like this could really happen. And if it could, I find it scary that my government would allow something like this to happen to me. Perhaps, this sort of thing happens all the time. Maybe there are all kinds of local government (city) laws that can’t be overridden by the state. I know for a fact that there are local laws and ordinances, but I’d hope that these would be superceded by any state government…especially for something as big as losing one’s vehicle. If this weren’t true, then what would stop Big Lake from creating some bogus law and taking the vehicles of the people breaking this law in their town? (I grew up in Becker J) It could get to the point where a guy couldn’t drive anywhere in the state for fear of being subject to the locals. Isn’t that why we have the different levels of government?

To get back to what this thread is about…netting. Do we, with all our technology and knowledge need to net? Are we that reliant upon Mother Nature that we depend solely on her to provide us with a tasty meal of walleye? We farm cattle for the mass production of beef, why not do the same with fish? This is, of course, assuming that the only purpose of netting is to harvest lots of fish for the purpose of selling them. An interesting note, vegans believe that we, as a society, are advanced to the point that we should not depend on any animal product for our needs of survival. Personally, I agree with them, but I also think my life is a whole lot better when I have a bloody 20 oz. Steak, or a juicy walleye fillet, in my belly! But they do have a point; do we really need to rape our natural resources in order to fill our basic needs? I don’t know. All that I really know is that netting is a problem that exists on many different levels; it just depends on whom you talk to. I only care about the levels that affect me, and that is netting here in Minnesota. I don’t, and nor will I ever, fish the lakes that are legally netted for walleye. I don’t care who is doing the netting. That takes some pretty nice lakes away from me, but there are plenty more left.

So what is the solution? The only course of action, as I see it, is government. This is the only way something can work, and work effectively. Standing around whining about it won’t work. (I’m guilty as the rest for doing this.) Trying to take things into your own hands (running over nets, cutting up nets, fights, etc.) won’t work either. A group large enough, united in a common cause, needs to make this an issue with the state. That’s how this country is supposed to work, right? You don’t like the way the world around you is run; you change it through a vote. You change it through your government. You make enough noise, you make your problem other peoples problem, and maybe then things will change. We’re all Minnesotan’s right? We all want what’s best for our lakes, and it’s just unfortunate that smaller voice happens to be the loudest on the issues of netting. Wouldn’t it be nice if all Minnesota waters were a level playing field for everyone?

I’ve been reading this site for a couple of years now, but have only recently felt compelled to post. This has been my longest by far…but it sure beats work! There’s also another solution, move. Move to another state, where the laws are different. Move to another state where the people are fewer and sharing the natural resources is easier. I’ve never been fly fishing, but those guys sound and look peaceful. I can hear Montana calling, or perhaps Alaska. I hear they PAY you to live there.

[Willy]

The bottom line is netting needs to be stopped. I don't care what people say about needing to feed their family or tradition. The casinos pay these people that live on the reservation. You can't tell me that they are that poor that they still need to net to feed their family and stay alive. If netting was done the "old indian style" then they would be out there in canoes, using smaller nets, and only taking what they are going to eat. So if you want to talk it being a part of native american heritage, then KEEP that heritage and use every part of the animal and don't WASTE anything. I doubt part of this tradition/heritage includes comercial fishing.

[This message has been edited by Willy (edited 06-18-2004).]

[Guest]

Willy,
So if you translate your thinking into aspects of YOUR life, than hunting and fishing should be banned because you do not need to do these things to survive.

Netting is a way of life to some people just as hunting, fishing, spearing, playing musical instruments, tiddly-winks or whatever are to others.

There is a lot to be said about maintaining traditions of the past and who are we to say they are wrong? Should we ban eating Lutefisk because some of us, I included, find it disgusting?

Now in this case, the person who did this acted in an irresponsible manner and has brought shame not only on the tradition of what he was doing but to his people as well.

Don't let the acts of a few dictate your entire prespective of a tradtion or a people.

[DavidH]

Just to throw something into the mix here...

As I had stated previously, I am Native American and I am against netting. It appears like I am not alone on the issue of netting.

Now, that said, what about commercial fishing? When it comes right down to it, what is the difference between commercial fisherman, whom use nets as well, and Native Americans who net? My first thoughts are that commercial fisherman pay for a commercial license. I dont believe Natives pay for a commercial license if netting on their waters. Commercial fishermen sell their catch on the public market and to processing plants. I could be wrong but I dont think Native people are allowed to sell their catch on the public market or to processing plants.

Your thoughts?

Please dont try to use the argument that commercial fishermen dont waste parts of their catch. I have seen their waste. It's rather disgusting to say the least.

[Guest]

David,
I object to commercial fishing as much, if not more than native netting.

Big Ick brought up a good question......

Why isn't there private ponds for raising walleyes? Is it too expensive? They have catfish ponds.........why not walleye ponds???

[jlm]

Willy-
I think you might have some bad information. Not all tribes get money from casinos. Sure, there are a few that do and one in particular has made every band member rich beyond imagination but as a whole, this is not the case. Most reservations are very, very poor. Unfortunately, this has lead to generations of poverty, mental illness, and addiction problems. It is very difficult to turn around something that has been a way of life for some people without adequate resources. An axample of what I mean is this: If you grow up in a fishing family and it becomes a way of life, odds are you will be a fisherman and so will your kids. We have learned to be that way from our parents and thier parents. Well then you can say, why don't they just move. Well they could but as is evident by some on this board, they really don't get a fair shake in our society because of the color of thier skin. It would be like one of us moving to a muslim country....how comfortable would you feel their. Its all about empathy. Walk in their shoes a little before passing judgement! Before you jump on me for this post, I will say this. It should not matter who you are, if you do something wrong, you have to be punished. If this guy was wrong with this netting thing, he should be punished!

[Willy]

Don't get me wrong about commercial fishing. I know there is waste there and I hate commercial fishing. Either way, Native netting or commercial fishing, I am against it on Minnesota's lakes and rivers.

Tom - I see your point and I agree that some may do it for fun, just as we all hunt and fish. However, most anglers release at least part of what they catch. With netting you are taking a whole lot of fish out of the system and not releasing any. And I know that this was probably just a few bad apples, but the way it sounds this happens quite frequently and I think something needs to be done to stop the netting or at least control it a little bit better.

And I know it is hard to tell them to just quit netting because it is to some of them, a way of life. But, there needs to be some control on the situation. If not, this kind of thing will keep on happening and adding fuel to everyone's fire. If people want to keep the right to net, do it responsibly and maybe everyone wouldn't look down upon it as much.

[walleyehawk]

Guys,

Lets stick to this one abandoned netting incident. I have seen too many times when we let the thread go to discussing Native American rights, netting, Mille Lacs, etc. and the thread goes up in flames, and the thread disappears.

We do not want this thread to be closed and disappear, right?

Focus on the one incident and what can be done to prevent it from happening. As Rick said, if you don't like netting, discuss it with the politicans as they are the only ones that can do anything.

To the student about items being taken, there was an incident a few years ago on Red Lake where someone flew into the Reservation sovereign portion of the lake. The plane was confiscated with their equipment. After about a month, they got the plane back.

The point here is education. Now the DNR mentions in the regs this is a seperate, sovereign nation and to respect their space. But before flying, one should research. And pay attention to signs if you drive.

[walleyehawk]

There is some rough fish that are netted on the rivers in the Twin Cities area. Carp and other rough fish.

Can you say fillet-o-fish.

And thank you for netting these so I don't have to catch them.

[united jigsticker]

Big Drift:

Great post!

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Good fishing,
UJ
[email protected]

[196thDLR]

I am not a everyday religous type person, but, "let he who has no sin cast the first stone."

[shortfatguy]

dave,
i think the biggest difference between natives netting and commercial fishermen netting is that any one can become a commercial fisherman if they pay the licensing fees and buy the equiptment while natives netting is based strictly on race... meaning it is racist. the whole point is it should be equal oppertunities to all... this is america. it seems unfair to me that because of race some are entitled to do things that other races are not just as it would be unfair to treat an ethnic group differently because of there heritage. it seems to me that the natives want to enjoy all that america stands for and also enjoy their native "rights" i think they should have the right to do that but if that is the case they should have to stay in their country unless they have proper documentation or work visas, they should be treated no differently than mexicans or people from any other country. as for the bands that choose to not let outsiders fish their waters... treat them as they treat us... they should not be allowed to do anything off of the reservation. if i am not mistaken one of the biggest issues that natives had with the early white settlers was that noone could own the land or water, it was provided for all to use responsibly, by god. this is as rediculouse as the border debate between north dakota and minnesota. people act like third graders... if you dont let me play with your toy then you cant play with mine!

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a bad day at the lake is better than a good day at work

[B-bear]

I rarely enter a debate as this (usually just a reader) but on the previous page Long Gray Line brought up a point that has not been addressed that I personally see as part of the problem.
The problem as I see it is perception.
An Anglo sees this act of wasting the netted fish as going "unpunished" because of the way the tribal council seems to keep punishments (if any) for this type of thing under wraps. Or are we only perceiving it as being kept quiet-- I don't know if they allow this information to come out?? All I know is that I never hear about it.

Whereas when anyone else gets busted (Anglos, Asians or whatever) for say an over limit violation we hear about it and they get fined or punished-- probably not enough $ but they do get punished and we do get to hear about it.

So do people get angry because they ONLY PERCEIVE that nothing is being done to punish this individual when they are being punished but we don’t hear about it --or is actually nothing being done???
That is what I am unsure of. I am trying to not let this perception get the best of me and that is why I am asking.

[big drift]

Lets get back to the facts;

Yes there was a net .
Yes the net was not being tended.
Yes it is legal to net on reservation waters by band members.
Yes it was reported.
The DNR is aware of the incident.
The proper authorities Tribal Game COs are aware of it.
Let them do their jobs and followup on it.
If your not happy with the results address it through proper channels.
Stop beating unrelated issues to death here.
If you wish to address social morays, political opinions or whatever else this is not the place.
Finger pointing and blaming goes no where. And yes for those doubters out there as former tribal Police Officer it will be addressed by Law Enforcement. Stop comparing Bands laws and regulations they vary from band to band tribe to tribe and state and state. Lets get back to fishing or open another forum for this type of discussion.
For myself how about the Lake erie spinner rig system for catching eyes during a mayfly hatch?

[Guest]

B-Bear,

I believe that human perception is probably the most dangerous trait we posess.

Our fears, hate, love all revolve around our perceptions--founded or un-founded.

If we follow this thread from the beginning, we can easily see how each of our perceptions of this issue color our level of response and response content.

Why in the world do so many of us get bent out of shape when we precieve things as being un-fair?

Somehow someone in our lives--parents, clergy, politicians and society in general short-changed us by telling us that un-fairness is bad and that when we feel something is un-fair we have a right to demand it be changed to meet our perception of what is fair and if our demands are un-met we have license to crucify the perpetrator(s)!

I can choose to look at almost anything in the World and percieve that it's un-fair if I can't "benefit" from it, or "get mine too".

Look at how the rich and powerful of this world are scorned by those who aren't rich and powerful--its the same with the radical Islamists--they percieve all of us are bad because we live differently than they do.

Their inability to think for themselves, and most importantly, empower themselves to change their perceptions of us makes them very dangerous.

I believe we call this insanity

My point is--if we work at removing our perceptions from situations that occur e.g. (the net full of rotten fish), we free our minds to search for solutions rather than retribution and placing blame.

Clearly something went wrong with the net and clearly netting is non-selective and wasteful; but most of all, we need to work with the Bands to resolve (and hopefully change) current laws so that there can be peace and at least less waste for all of us.

Thanks for letting me "Philisophicalize"!

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Chells

[jegerjack]

My opinion is a bit off topic but all I have to say is that walleye fishing has gone into the tank all over the state, not just the lakes that the tribes net. There was a time, not so long ago, when you could go out with a 75% chance of limiting out on eye's. Now, I would say, you have might have a 10% to 15% chanceand I think those are on the higher end (now I am not saying that you should limit out but the ability was there). I say forget about trying to get the state to do anything about the netting and focus on something more realistic, like what they can do about the non-native fishing. I am a big believer that unless we take dramatic steps, our fishing will not be any better here than in any other state (which might be true already). Those steps, I believe, include a reduced limit, more lake by lake regs, higher fees, shorter season and in some cases closed lakes for fishing like on Red.

JegerJack

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"What did the old man trade for these guys, a used puck bag?"

[This message has been edited by jegerjack (edited 06-18-2004).]

[upnorth]

If I understand the Soveriegn Nation thing correctly they are not really part of the US, but a seperate nation and government unto themselves. Which means our laws and rules don't apply to them any more than our rules and laws would apply to Canada or Mexico. That would also mean that the land or water is theirs to do with as they please, for good or bad.

I do find netting and waste disturbing, but if they want to make a mess of their resources it is their business. It is not really our land or water, but theirs and our government has absolutely no jurisdiction if it on their land.

We can sit here and complain about netting and waste till the end of time, we can write our congressman, we can call the DNR or even President Bush and it will have no affect unless the leaders of this Soveriegn Nation take some action to stop this themselves. It is not land ruled or governed by the good old US of A.

Just my take on the situation

[psegriz]

******* I think? you're right.

That is why I think we need to work with them ( other states, bands, countries) on border waters where we'd both have an interest. Sometimes that is easier said than done, but I hope in the long run agreements (comprimises) will be made.

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GRIZ

[Chad Holst]

up north, You make a good point however you have to admit that the fish dont know who's water there swimming in.. When half a lake is on "our" land and half is on "there" land..Its not like netting on one side of the lake means only one side of the lake looses fish. Also, if I'm not mistaken N.A.'s are allowed to net on non-tribal waters as long as they get a permit...the same permit that a non-native is not able to get for non-tribal waters.

By the way, The computer thinks your name is a swear word so it ******'s it out?!?
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I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

[This message has been edited by sirlips (edited 06-19-2004).]

[windsurferlawman]

Dave-

Yeah, they are on the reservation, but they are not sovereign in that they are their own country, so to speak such as Red Lake.

Red Lake is sovereign in that our state police and county sheriffs department have no jurisdiction. If a criminal was hiding out in Red Lake the RL police would have to extradite them to the boundary, where the arresting department would then take custody of the prisoner.

michael

[windsurferlawman]

*******-

Red Lake is soverign, as you say- but Leech Lake, Mille Lacs and Winnie are not!

michael

[DavidH]

quote:

---

windsurferlawman

wrote...

Red Lake is soverign, as you say- but Leech Lake, Mille Lacs and Winnie are not!

---

windsurferlawman...Leech and Winnibigoshish are inside the Leech Lake reservation boundries. Dont believe me? Click the link below and see.

Leech Lake Reservation Boundries

[This message has been edited by DavidH (edited 06-19-2004).]

[DavidH]

*******...you are completely correct. Nice post

[ricqik]

Funny thing is you all complain about netting. I bet you anything it's only because it's your precious walleye, northern, bass whatever you want to lump into the gamefish group. If this was carps, sucker, gars, bowfins, bullheads buffalo, etc, it'll get brushed off so fast it's like this thread never existed. I remember a post awhile back about carps and suckers being netted out of the St. Croix down by Prescott. Everybody cheered and jumped for joy and in the back of your mind you're thinking " yes, get rid off those roughfish so our walleye's, bass, northerns, etc can flourish" . That topic didn't go 2pg. My .02 .

[upnorth]

How do you like that I am listed as cuss word

windsurferlawman,

I am not positive about this, but I do believe that the other reservations could have been like Red Lake, but they have sold off some of the land and it would make it difficult to keep others completely out. Still, on reservation land and waters they(reservation residents) live by their rules not ours.

[windsurferlawman]

Yeah,

I am a little surprised that > north is a swear word! lol

As far as the netting of a particular spesies of fish, it is not the same. If one person is able to net a fish, then the rest should be able to as well. This is not our preciouos Walleye. This is about equal rights, wanton waste, and right and wrong!

I lived in Alaksa off and on for a number of years and I am all for the comercial fishing up there. You have to know though that up there comercial fishing is more closely regulated thananything else.

I know a Conservation Officer who actually rides right with the comercial fishermen as they are netting fish. can you imagine the uproar the natives would be making if a CO wanted to ride in one of their boats while they netted???

Also, Alaska has the numbers of fish to support the netting. I have been told by several fishermen that they could actually net 95% of all Salmon in any year if they were allowed to net as they wanted.

They use planes to spot the schools then surround them and get them with a purse seiner. They net the enitre school!

Take one look at Red Lake or Leech and tell me that netting does not have a negative effect!

Michael

[windsurferlawman]

Sorry Dave H,

Can't do it and if we could why should we?

Show me one lake in MN where you can catch as many 28"-30" Walleye as Mille Lacs--

Mille Lacs, Winnie, and leech should all be in the top ten in the us for Walleye and they could be with the proper management.

Why do you think there are no more pro-am tournaments on Mille Lacs? Because the Natives have it so messed up with the slot size! There is hope now with the 20-22" changes this year, but there is a long ways to go- sill, look at how many boats came in for the wave wacker with zero weigh fish, yet they caught tons!

Michael

[huskiesplayer15]

Mr. Herman here is my email address
huskiesplayer15 at hotmail.com
best fishes
Chris

[walleyehawk]

I agree. So many of the smaller lakes do not have strong walleye populations like some of the big ones like Mille Lacs and Lake of the Woods. You don't have to worry so much about the pressure on the larger lakes. The other thing is Mille Lacs has very few pleasure boaters and water skiiers because of the rough waters. Not like Minnetonka where it is difficult to fish during the weekends.

Mille Lacs is regarded nationally as a world class fishery within an hour of the Twin Cities.

[big drift]

All reservations have some form of sovreignty and yes are still subject to some legislation at both state and federal. Mostly dealing with criminal acts. however the amount of state and federal impact is limeted by band, tribe, tribal constitution and past treatys. Redlake is different due to the that they are th eonly purely sovereign tribal nation there they do not have to comply with state jurisdiction. they have the option but they are still subject to some federal jurisdiction and authority.