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Gill net found on Winnie with rotten fish!


windsurferlawman

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Some people you can address this issue to is:

Director of public safety Leech Lake DPS
Cass Lake, MN

Leech Lake Tribal Council, Cass Lake

MCT (Minnesota Chippewa Tribe), Cass Lake

Since it is Federal try the U.S. Fish and Game

Also Ojibwe Press

Try Northland News out of Bemidji

Contact your state reps.

Trust me it is an election year people will respond.

Onto interferring with nets if you are caught tampering with nets you could face charge at both a state and federal level. Also you are putting yourself and others that may come later in jeopardy. If you want to reach a conclusion instead of an adversarial organzation attempt to set a joint organization of Tribal reps and sportsmen work together on addressing the issue and you will be surprised at how many Tribal members support direction and control of this resource. it is just when you have two opposing sides and lack of knowledge you result in conflict. Think about it.

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  • DavidH

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  • Farley

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Holy cow.

How can you people bash the Native Americans like this? We took they're land and pushed them into small peaces of land so we could live here. Then years later our nation lets thousands of refuges from all over the place come here and live. We told them they could have a better life here. We treat them good why can't we do this for the Indians? I'm not saying that I'm against any one coming here to live. I just think it's bulls--t how we treated and still treat the Native Americans. I think it's very wrong what happened back then but there is nothing I can do about it. But I can be a better person knowing that I will not treat people like this.

I didn't agree with the netting thing. I think it is wrong no matter who is doing it.

And by the way I am part Indian. A very small part. And David I'd like to go fishing with you and learn more about your heritage

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First off, DavidH, I have the utmost respect for you. It is very impressive how you can calmly reply to all of these completely negative posts. It really shows you are a man of great character. You are a real asset to this site. I hope that you are not discouraged enough to leave. Thank you very much for your insight. There are very few "non-Native Americans" that really have any idea at all of how the Native American culture works, myself included.

Secondly, the issue here is one net found on Winnie. ONE NET. That means one knucklehead abused his rights and abused our natural resources. If every Native American would net and leave them out in Winnie there would be hundreds of thousand of floating nets. There are bad seeds in all culture/races. How does one net found full of rotting fish and some piles of dead fish in ditches relate to housing issues around Mille Lacs. That is attacking a whole race. Generalizing is hardly ever a positive things when talking about cultures, and this is a perfect example why. People, before you post, please think about if you want to be grouped with every other person of your race. I am Caucasian and right now there are a few people I can think of(and not even on this sit) that I would rather not be generalized with.

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I'm not Indian. I don't like tribal rights. I don't like sovereign nation status. I'm a conservative, republican. But more than this, I really dislike peoples uneducated, lathering name-calling towards people who have nothing to do with the curent topic. It called being pragmatic. Look it up.

No, you don't have the right to "vent" towards the first Indian you meet. Just like Al Queda terrorists don't have the right to "vent" towards the first westerner they can pick up of of the streets of Saudi Arabia. (A leap, I know. Just trying to make a point) And yes, to abuse and badger Indians that have values similar to your own is foolish. What would make most anglo's happy is assimilation. By all means, drive away the first one you meet......

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From what I've read this isnt the first time someone has found a net with rotting fish. There has been numerous posts on this thread with people saying they've also found nets on Winni and Leech with rotting fish for years.

A solution?? I just think many people, and myself somewhat, think that these privliges should be taken away, not just because of this instance but because it is not good for the fishery.

Many moons ago my forefathers took this land and industrilized(sp?) it. I've heard this story ever since I was old enough to comprehend it. How long are we supposed to feel sorry about what happened hundreds of years ago. Maybee some of these people who keep playing that card would rather have America be a communist controlled country because who knows what America would be if the Europeans didnt settle here. My guess is this land would be called "New China".

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Opinions are welcomed as long as they don't attack or bash.

Unfortunately, being a part of FM longer than most here, I see threads like this take a bad turn 90% of the time. SOmetimes threads are cut short, noticing those cues that generally precede negativity.
It's the nature of debate or in a lot of cases those who participate in debate who do not understand "give and take" in/with opinion.

Let's remember (for the umpteenth time) to keep things civil, friendly and informative.
We will try to explain deletions, but do not have to.

Back to fishing!

Jim W

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Thank you to those for the encouraging comments directed at me. I appreciate it.

I will be writing a letter to both the DNR and the Band council where this net was found and voice my opinion on the issue. I encourage others to do the same.

While I do not agree with the practice of netting fish, I do stand by my beliefs regarding providing for a family. Not that I expect some or all to agree with this however there are those Natives that choose to live according to the way they were taught. The "old ways". To each their own. Follow the law and don't take more than is required.

Farley. Interesting your comment about North America possibly being called "New China" Based on the Y chromosome haplotype, there are theories that state Native Americans are descendants of the Chinese. Rather intriguing isn't it?

smile.gif

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I've also read something that stated Natives possibly came over from Asia, not particularly China though. It said nothing about the Y chromosone, just that the language similarities and features were similar when the Europeans settled here. It says at some point in time they came accross the Bering Straight and spread out accross the land.

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I think that what happened here on other times with nets is a very bad deal and quite frankly it pisses me off. I know that all native americans are not bad just as all races have good and bad in them. However, I feel that the people responsible for this incident and others like them should taken care of accordingly. They shouldn't just recieve a slap on the wrist. They should lose their fishing rights altogether. I really don't know what the band has that controls their resources as the DNR does ours, but, I'm pretty sure there is something and they are trying to stop things like this from happening. However, it doesn't seem like they are doing a very good job. I guess I just hope to see some cooperation between the DNR and the Band to make sure things like this don't happen as often as they do. Eventually I would like to see all netting banned. You can say it is a way of life and all but, really most people that do it are abusing it and it needs to stop.

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It appears that the netting discussion may have come to a dispute of rights. Or lack of rights?

Just to make clear the "rules" when it comes to Native netting/spearing/fishing. Natives may only net and or spear on tribal waters. If they are doing it on State waters, they are breaking the law unless they have a commercial fishing license. Yes, Natives can and do fish on State waters. They must purchase a fishing license though just like everyone else. Non Natives can and do fish on tribal waters. They must ask permission first from the band to which that water resides on.

OK. So...the rights of few outweighs those of the many. Correct? How does this get ratified then? Remove all rights pertaining to netting or allow everyone to net? Surely we cant have everyone netting nor would we want to have everyone netting. The resources would dry up faster than my drive home from work. So, we remove everyone's right to net. Yes, there will be those Natives that will complain. The ones that complain the loudest will probably be the ones that are pulling in more then their fair share. So be it. It has to be done that way if we hope to have a healthy fishery. In the meantime, until that does happen (and I hope it happens sooner rather than later) being civil to everyone involved is only proper. Attacking me because there are those that have issues with Native rights or Natives in general, does nothing to further their cause. It only makes me less compassionate.

While we are on the subject of rights, a little side note. You people, (American citizens) have a right that I don't. One that I would dearly love to have. My nation is Mohawk. The reservation that I belong to is the Akwesasne. Our reservation crosses the US/Canada border. I happened to be born on the Canadian side of the reservation and thus, I have a Canadian birth certificate. Since Native people do not recognize the borders because Native people were here before the borders were placed, we are allowed to live/work/play on either side. The US and Canadian governments both recognize the Jay Treaty of 1794 which gives us this right among others.

Now, here is the right that you have and I don't. I don't have the right to vote. I don't even have the right to vote in Canada since my Nation is in both countries. I have no say in how I want to see either country run. At this point, since I don't live on my reservation, I don't have a right to vote on Native affairs there either. Am I bitter because of that? Ya...you might say I am. My wife, who is non Native, has decided that she will vote consciously for the both of us.

With respect to living a Native life similar to 400 years. It might be fun for a weekend but I would have to pass on that over the long run. I really do appreciate my new boat and electric stove and washer and dryer and big soft comfy bed and...and...and...you get the idea.

[This message has been edited by DavidH (edited 06-17-2004).]

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Bigdrift

Thank you for the names of the people we can write. Do you have addresses or locations so we can look up the address on the internet.

Folks, there have been things said on this thread that we don't need to revisit. Lets concentrate on moving forward. Lets focus on this specific act at Winnie. If we focus on Indian netting rights, this thread will go up in flames and be deleted. And nothing will happen.

We have a chance to do something here other than complain. We can make others aware of our concerns. Depending on who we write, we can tell them it may affect our vote for them. Maybe it will have other civilized actions.

Cutting nets is against the law. What these individuals apparently did may be against the law. Do we want to stoop to that level? I hope as sportsmen we can be more civilized than that.

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Dave,

That sucks. You are American enough to pay taxes but to Native to vote.

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Dave H

I have been curious for a while about some of the Native American's rights in the US. I get confused with the sovereign nation stuff.

I know they can serve in the US military. Can Native Americans born on the US side of the border vote in US national, state and local elections? Or is their voting restricted to within the reservation?

If they live and work on the reservation, do they pay US state and federal taxes or do they pay a tax to the reservation.

I have no ulterior motives here, I am just trying to get a better understanding of the situation. Like I said, this sovereign nation stuff confuses me.

Thanks

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To contact the The Leech Lake Reservation Tribal offices...

Leech Lake Reservation
Route 3, Box 100
Cass Lake, MN 56633
(218)-335-8200

Farley...it's a little ironic.

walleyehawk...
Native people do pay Federal and State taxes even if they live on a reservation. There are certain circumstances where they do not. I am not completely sure of all the facts on it though. If a Native person makes a purchase on a reservation, then they do not pay taxes. I think? Since I dont live on a reservation, I am not positive of all the tax breaks/legalities regarding this.

As for the voting issue, I really havent a clue about that. I *think* they can?

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This is really funny that this should come up. I know a NA who was telling me a story which happened about two to three weeks ago on Winni! He said he put out his nets in the shallows and while the nets were set, a guy in a boat came along and drove right through the nets despite them being well marked (he was going too fast). The guy got so tangled up that he had to stop. They (NA's) went up to this guy and hauled him into town where he had to buy them new nets because theirs were completely ruined. They could not recover the nets because by the time they got back, it was dark and they were unable to find them. I suspect that people run over nets all the time and drag them around the lake. Sure there are those out there that abuse the system but I think it is wise to find out the real story before everyone goes out and provides their two cents. For those of you who want ot throw the race thing out there, all I can say is that if they have it so easy, why don't you trade places with them. Grow up a little!

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DavidH, As far the first part of your response..well said! Why is this simple idea so hard for people to understand?
I'm not anti Native, as i think must of us are not.. I'm Against all this confusing double rule mumbo jumbo. It's funny to think we have to check our family tree to see what set of laws to follow, this, in a nation of freedom and democracy. Crazy!!

As far as your voting rights.. How can they tax you if you are not able to vote? Is this not taxation without representation? I think the courts would have a fun time sorting this out....lol.... Maybe thats why they never want to air it on the 6 o'clock news!

I'll make a deal with yah dave.. I buy the beer you buy the bait and lets go find a fishing hole to discuss it!!

oh YAH.. i forgot.. I truelly would give up my boat, motor, and cunfy couch for a chance to go back..problem is i would have to find a way to stop my great, great grandparent from coming here and stealing it from me!!

------------------
I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

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jlm is right. It's easly to separate the men from the boys when a topic like this hits.

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  • 'we have more fun' FishingMN Creators

I want to commend DavidH and Big G's post was a pretty good one too.

Race isn't the issue, no matter how much some feel the need to bring it in.

The issue is netting, the issue is treaty rights, the issue is the law, the issue is perceived unfairness. If you don't like it, work at changing it. It's a political animal and can be worked at changing without bringing race into it.

The minute you bring race into it, you've brought a whole group of people into it, many or most of whom may not be involved or even agree with the actions we find reprehensible. That's not fair to the race you singled out and it definitely shows underling racism as well as your own ignorance.

When you do that you brand the whole group. When you do that, I don't care what you say, YOU ARE A RACIST!

Please click the Register link, read it and stay within those policies. I don't care what race you are. We are human beings and we are all brothers. I expect everyone to live up to their agreements here.

It would be nice to have an adult discussion on this issue without the attacks, racism, and race baiting going on. If you do any of the above, don't whine about your post being deleted.

I also want to thank and commend most of you who are posting here for staying within Forum guidelines as well as being very intelligent with your posts and observations without resorting to racism.

Thanks, it's because of you and our Pro Staff monitoring it, that this topic remains unlocked!!! smile.gif

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Dave

I am not sure all the ins and outs of the voting/"non-resident" thing. But I have seen on the news a few cases where Senator Norm Coleman, our Senator in Washington, has stepped in and helped to guide someone through the bureaucracy to get a person citizenship.

Once he got it so an Asian kid could stick around a little longer so he could finish his high school education while they were deporting his family. He only had a few weeks left to get his diploma. I have seen where he has worked to reunite a family with part of the brothers and sisters still in Africa.

You should give him or Senator Dayton a call.

I can understand your plight a little. My grandmother was born in Canada and has lived in the US most of her life, yet she cannot vote. Apparently you need to have a birth certificate, and they cannot find hers. So she has never voted, but has lived her over 70 years.

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Perhaps posting a name along with the deed would be a good idea. If someone is exposed to embarrassment for their misdeeds perhaps they will think twice about blowing off their responsiblities.

It don't matter what your background is or where you came from you should be held accountable for your actions.

This falls into the same catagory as the poachers up in Ifalls, everyone needs to be accountable for their misdeeds no matter what their heritage!!!! If it is wrong it is wrong.

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Hey that reminds me has any one heard what they are doing with the poachers from up north? The ones that had several hundred fish in the trunk and at there home.. Was a big topic for a while and now no one has said a thing about it..

------------------
I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

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Ok,

I'm a little groggy because I bave been sitting in the sun on Mille Lacs all day, but I'll try another post without making myself look like an *****-

Dave H.- I never said you were doing anything, and if I "attacked" you for that I apologize, but if you read my post again I said "I am not saying you are doing anything." Or something a long those lines.

This net was placed exactly where I found it and it was clearly visable in the same location for 2-3 weeks before curiosity got the best of me. There is no way it blew away and I'll tell you why.

When I finally went over to see what the bouy was my friend pulled it up and when we saw it was a gill net full of rotten fish he dropped the bouy anchor, but it got tangled up in the line. It sank the bouy like a rock! I had to pull it back up so the bouy was at the surface again.

As far as me allowing this to happen- You show me one politician who did what they said they were going to after they were elected!

If you want to think I am a racist that is fine, I know better than that though. I have ZERO problems with any tribel members except for when it comes to game and fish issues.

Except for a little time in Alaska and Iowa for college, I have lived my entire 30 years very close to an indian reservation. In those 30 years I have come to see this sort of gross wasting on many, many occasions, and no one seems willing to do anything about it.

I think that it is time we start doinf something about it and eventually people will get the idea that we are sick of this b/s-

michael

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My granpa told me today that everyone only finds out about three percent of a group of people and what they do, which I thought is true, you either find out three percent good or three percent bad? Food for thought
best Fishes
Chris

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I remember hearing a story from Wisconsin where the fisher men took to their boats, Flags flying and Guns blearing and took back control of their waters and stopped the spearing and netting.

USA

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I would like to point out a few things here but dont want them to be taken offensive by any race . So Dave H please bare with me as i am not a great speaker and some could be easily taken wrongly.Also as a point of interest 1 of my best freind is NA.

Dave H ,,, I do think that If we all looked into the history of the NA's we would find some interesting facts of those times .

One of these Facts is that the different tribes would make war with themselves for all sorts of reasons...The stronger tribe took whatever they wanted in their conquest. This would be anything from the women to the horses to the land the huinted or fished. This is not much different when the white man came to this land is it?

Gentlemen ,,, My feelings are theses:
we all should have the same rights as each other. Times have changed greatly since those treatys were made. There is a wide crosssection of people everywhere in the world in todays world. there is all sorts of work out there to get into.Granted some of those jobs wont pay enough ends meet and some sort of subsistance is needed. There is many peoplr of all races in this situation who need to hunt or fish for their family to eat.If a person in a situarion like this fills a freezer thats 17cubic feet in size full of meat or fish (store bought ot hunted or fished) it would last close to a year foe a family of 5( i have done this with beef, pork , fish, chickin). with out going on here 1/2 asleep i think you can get what i am trying to say here .

Indians i do beleive at one time only took what thay needed and were stewards of the land............ It is stories like this one and others that say they are not. the legal arguement of tradition is **** to me also. the tradition was with birch bark canoes not the rigs we see today is it? Could the white man today say that it was a tradition to shoot at a group of NA's because over a set Number of them off Reservation when my great great great grandfther was alive they were classified as a war party? it dont matter that there is new laws and life settings in todays world.... Now How serious would this be taken?

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David H, 1st, I would like to say I stand by what I posted earlier. With that said, I am sorry that you took this to be an attack on you. I was simply stating that the system in general is F.U.B.A.R.. I was not saying and consiquently do not think that you are the problem. I think that some of the posts are not directed at you but at the problem..and likwise some are posted directly at you and not the problem..the latter being from small minded people with nothing better to do than make waves.
The problem is netting! Not leaving or loosing nets but netting!! I know alot of people are looking at this as a few people messing it up for the whole. I don't believe this is the case. There are always going to be a few bad apples in a bunch (And i know you are not one of them)but, these are problems coming up because...

A) netting should not be ok for some and not for others unless THEY( in this case the Natives) have a clear and valid right.

B)There are never mistakes being made ie loosing, forgetting nets even if not the "natives fault".

lets look at "A)" first...
We all know that the Natives got screwed out of alot of there way of life. But, many of us are here because we (our natives) got screwed also. Does this constitute a "right" to do things that others, living in the same country, can not do? I dont believe so. (and yes dave i know you dont think so either)

OK "B)"....If you are going to allow one group of people (let's say group "a") living in the same area's as other groups (let's say b,c,and d) to have a differant set of rules.. then you have to realize that the first time group "a" breaks even the smallest rule set for them that you will have a huge outcry from b,c, and d. It will never work.. why? because even if a net is lost from a storm.. the groups that can't use them will, well...say what you are hearing in this forum!

So how do you stop it?
1) Give all groups the same rules and the groups are no longer the problem, the problem is the problem...
2)or let all groups do what ever they want, rule them selves, face no consiquences from the other groups with differant laws...AND START A NEW CIVIL WAR..because trust me it would happen!
Why is it so, hard for us to realize you can not have 2,3,4,..groups with differant sets of rules for each and then expect them to get along and talk civil, act civil, be civil.
I'll be civil when we are all playing by the same rule book. Untill then i will fight to get us all on the same book. If not dont complain to me when people aren't being "fair" or nice.

Last I think alot of people on this sight, since we are sports minded and connected to the outdoors wish we could live closer to the "steryotypical native life" but we relise we can't. And then when we see others can it becomes a very soar spot. I would love to live the life of a "Native" 400 years ago. But guess what I cant.. And as childish as it may sound why should others...I WAS BORN ON THE SAME.....you understand...

Thanks for you time david and i appreciate your opinion.

------------------
I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

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I have been following this post, wow, It seems every now and then we forget the wasted fish! You could go on & on but the fact is the same, some individual killed a bunch of fish and wasted them. I believe in God & Karma and who ever did this will pay one way or another.

We did not inherit the earth! We are only borrowing it from our children! Old native indian saying!

Tad

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I don't know guys, this can go one of two ways. I find it odd that a man would leave his nets out for weeks with a form of identification on them that will get him busted. So, either something happened that prevented him from getting his net or he has no regard for the damage that he is creating. Either way, he is innocent until proven guilty. Lets hear the story and get the fact before we offend a whole race of people. Just my 2 cents!

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If the Tribal Council that handled the issue with the poacher published their actions/results to show the world that the issue is being treated seriously/ethically, it might go along way to diffuse the mistrust. Knowing that the verdict/punishment is going to be published might also pressure the court to go after those found guilty. Making the proceedings more transparent would have to build trust. They might be getting published now and I don't see it. Anybody more knowledgable about this?

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