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BASS OPENER!!!!!!!!!


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BassPastor....
In my opinion, purposly violating fish and game laws is poaching.
The Mille Lacs dilema has no substance, they are targeting walleyes, if they are not in the slot they are let go, if they die after that then yes, they are dead. But no fishing laws were broken.

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wastewaterguru, I hope you're not raising any kids, and if you are I hope they never rob me.
Have you ever been ice fishing in March and caught a Walleye? Crappie fishing in the spring and caught a Bass? Pulled a northern up in early April? Did you turn yourself in?
Everyone has to let thier own consience (sp) guide them. Hopefully when you're left alone with the cookie jar you will leave it alone.
Most of the southern states have year round bass seasons, maybe the colder climate makes it more important to have a closed season up here.
In the end we will all know if we did good or not.
A law is a law and should be obeyed, if you don't like it run for office and get it changed.

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Duffman first,

I think I have probably spent more time fishing bass in clear water and observing the process than you. If there is a pack of sunnies just waiting to move in on the bed than those fry are as good as dead anyway. Because one sunny will get the bass to chase it and leave the nest. Thereby allowing other sunnies to feast. In a lake with a lot of sunfish the bass that beds in a bad spot gets most if not all there fry eaten, that's how natural selection works. It's better off to help those fry not surrive as that they have a stupid father.

My right is burdened because as a law abiding citizen my right is infringided without a good basis. There is no biological reason that pre-spawn bass should be protected. An unenforceable subjectivly based law is bad law.

As for angler harassement, It is very common, but that is a subject for another day.

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OK, here's how may last call went -- I got some woman in a Brainerd office who said they were too far away to do anything, but she would give me the number of the warden in my area. Called that number and got a recording telling me to call the TIP number, which I had called in the first place.

Finally talked to the warden later and he said there was nothing he could do unless the anglers had bass in possession. That was it.

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CWMN,

I would like to be the first to warn you that personal attacks are not tolerated on this site.

That being said.......robbing a bank in the context of knowing there is no enforcement is NOT by definition "breaking the law".

From Websters:

Law: "all the rules of conduct established and enforced by the authority, legislation, or custom of a given community, state, or other group."

please note that it says established and ENFORCED.....

Without enforcement it is NOT by definition a law.

------------------
John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

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Sorry Guru -- You can't go to Webster's for that kind of definition. A law exists by virtue of legislative action (which also extends into executive and judicial under the umbella of legislative authorization).

A statute (or ordinance) is law, as is an executive order, or judicial dictum. When you speak of enforcement you are addressing the problem of "teeth" in a law. That is precicely what we're dealing with here. The law exists that bass season is closed, but game wardens exercise little interest in enforcement. But the law is clear -- bass season is closed.

What is different about police work, unlike other forms of formal organization, is the fact that the greatest discretion exists at the lowest levels. Police can decide not to invoke the law. That is, they can look the other way. Discretion makes policing controversial. I might get nailed for using an extra line, but the guy targeting and catching bass goes unrestrained. It's easier for the CO to prove I had two lines in the water -- even tho I may have had no other violations (limit restricitions, etc.).
I could argue, as Basspastor attempts, that there's "no harm" to the resource in my using the extra line -- BUT, it is against the law and I am responsible for the violation.

Most laws at local, state, and national levels are "selectively enforced," and authorities will argue that is necessary because of limited resources. Enforcement, with all due respect to Webster, is NOT a requirement for being law.

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BassPastor....
This blockhead has fished 218 days from 99-01, and 30 days so far this year. So I might have some experience that comes close to yours. And in all those days that I have fished, I can only remember once or twice where the matter of angler harrasment MAY have occured. Maybe you put yourself in situations where angler harrasment occurs more often.

The male will chase a sunny off and then return to guard the nest until he chases the next one. That is the natural process, but when someone is "pike" fishing with a rubber worm and drags the fish off the bed for an extended stressful time, the offspring will suffer greater losses than normal. Plus now you have a worn out fish that might not be able to do his duty to the best of his ability.

People must get a lot of break offs when fishing for "pike" with a rubber worm because as far as I can tell they always forget to put on a steel leader. Did you have a leader on when chucking that spinnerbait for pike? The first two weeks of the season I usually have one on if I'm throwing spinnerbaits targeting pike.

With the late spring this year, there will be plenty of bass both male and female yanked off the beds and harvested. I know of a guy up on Ham lake that just loves to put 4-7lb. bass in the smoker. Just be happy that the fish you love to catch has caught on with the C&R group. Plenty of meat hunters out there that still love eating a 5lb. bass, something I prefer not to do, but if it's within the extent of the law I have no qualms.

Anyways, this has been fun to some extent. I wish you luck on the opener tomarrow. Have fun, throw some back, or keep 6 if you really want to.

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Hey guys,

I have never put a leader on a spinnerbait in my life. Fish don't get the whole bait in their mouths. Just the skirt.

You're correct Clayton about the definition. I was just trying to make a point. No I wouldn't rob a bank. But if the police turned their heads the way the CO's do to this issue....I'd sure bet that someone would.

That was a pretty fun and informative thread and managed to stay pretty much "in" bounds.

Unfortunately I won't be out for opener because my wife and bank-robbing children ( grin.gif ) and I are going camping.

Good luck to everyone and I'll see you on the pond.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

[This message has been edited by wastewaterguru (edited 05-24-2002).]

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The only reason I put a leader on for the first couple weeks is that there may be less of a question as to what species I target. Do I catch bas? Of course I do, but they go back in the water just like the pike do. I have lost a few spinnerbaits to pike.

WasteWaterGuru...
Ya gotta try for the bigger pike, those hammerhandles are the ones that usually can't get past the skirt. LOL

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I've caught a few 8 and 10 pounders without ever losing a fish to broken line. I have 14 pound braided line on my baitcasters and I'm sure that helps. Maybe I've just gotten lucky. The leader probably would help your case but it doesn't sound like they would try to get ya anyway.

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

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I, myself, have always had difficulty getting past the skirt......

Most of the states west of MN have no seasons for game fish, except perhaps in isolated locations where spawning fish are susceptable to overharvest (creeks, rivers).

I have heard the MN DNR quoted as saying that the fishing seasons in MN are more based in tradition than they are in biology.

This "Fishing Opener" thing was a new experience for me when I moved to MN. I didn't even understand what a fishing season was.....I had never heard of such craziness. I couldn't see what the big deal was on opener...everyone always complains about the weather, the fishing is often not good and it is the most crowded day of the year on the water. Finally, I understood that people didn't go because the fishing was great, they go because it's tradition.

Well, I know someone who lives 5 hours from here who's been bass fishing for over two months now. When they start to spawn, he'll lay off for a while to give them rest. Perhaps if MN wasn't so restrictive with it's seasons, poeple wouldn't feel the need to fish for spawning bass.

Have a great time on Bass Opener, folks.

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Duffman hit it right on the head!! By pulling those fish off during a time when you are not supposed to, you upset the natural balance!!

It's like PETA saying it's bad to control animal populations through hunting. We as humans have taken natural habitat for our own use, habitat that used to support animals. It is our responsibility to control populations so that animals don't die from a more suffering death than a bullet through the heart!!

To sit here and say that because a law goes unenforced it's not breaking the law, is ridiculous!! Why are we still trying to justify breaking the law?? It's the law!! Do your part to uphold it!!

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"natural balnce" as defined by whom.

God....the DNR.....the government.....or you.

Yes catching spawning fish seems by common sense to be a bad idea in the long run, but bass are a very prolific species and will not be killed off as a species due to pressure during the spawn. States that have no rules on bass fishing seasons have lakes and ponds that are more populated than any of the ones up here. The colder water during the spawn helps these fish survive. Natural balance by my definition is when the bass learn to adapt and adjust their spawning patterns to handle the pressures put on them by early season anglers. Maybe God intended us to fish for them so they would learn to spawn in deeper water. grin.gif

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John K., a.k.a. wastewaterguru
Prior Lake, Minnesota

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In fishing, as in life, you would never know what you'll catch. There will be things which will totally amaze you when you pull your line in. Every cast is an advanture, every retreive is a surprise. All you can really hope for is to get one of your intended victims once in a while. There are certain techniques which will produce more of the things which you are after and less of the unintended intruders, and there are certain techniques which are considered specialties and are automatically linked to certain objectives. Unfortunately, every bait or lure which a northern will take is also loved by a largemouth. Either way, every tight line results in a happy angler.

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The capstone to my position can be found in this weeks Bass Opener addition of the Outdoor News. They have an article from the MN DNR about Largemouth Bass. While I do not have it hear to quote verbatium it says in effect that the largemouth is an extremely proficient spawner and that research shows that spawning success is dicated by weather and habitat. The weather has to be extremely unfavorable over a long period of time or there has to be a lack of habitat to prevent bass from proliferating. Those are the only two important factors mentioned.

The most amazing statement however was that research seems to indicate that it doesn't matter whether a large or small number of bass spawn, the hatch will turn out the same either way. This is because enough fry always survive even if the number of bass spawning is small. They will literally fill the system to the extent that the habitat protects them even if few fish actually succeed in the spawning process. That's amazing! This is why bass don't seem to suffer the hot and cold cycles so common to many other game fish (Crappies and walleyes). A good bass lake tends to stay a good bass lake year after year after year.

To the Duffman my Mille Lacs analogy does make sense. My point was not about legality but ethics. Of coarse it's against the law to fish for a fish out of season. That's what the letter of the law states. The spirit of the law and the slot is to protect the resource. My point is that the "letter" is highly imperfect in achieving the "spirit." Although as I noted the slot has the advantage of being enforceable and thereby of some use. It forces people to throw back fish that would otherwise go to the frying pan. The bass season however is a fatally flawed regulation.

Poaching is far to strong a word. Here's another analogy. Where the speed limit is posted as 55MPH it is by the "letter" illegal to go 56MPH. The "spirit" is to keep the roads safe. So does that make the driver who hits 57MPH under clear dry conditions guilty of vehicular negligence and reckless driving. By your the "law" is the "law" attitude, that is just what you think this person is guilty of in addition to the speeding. To be a light "speeder" caries no stigma, to be branded a reckless driver does. I do not believe the crime fits the description.

I am sure a big reason that CO's don't actively enforce this one is that the violation is not really viewed as a serious threat to the resource. Just like going 57Mph under clear conditions is not a serious threat to public safety.

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Basspastor....
I guess it just boils down to personal ethics. I prefer to follow the law as it was written. I have no need to find justifications to break a "fatally flawed regulation."

As for the angler harassment dilema, wow, I guess some people are wound up a little tighter than others."That boat came to close to me, and it interfered with my constitutional right to take fish."

Awwwww, you gotta go all the way to cheeseland to catch some bass. Things really must be tough for ya.

I'm done. I ain't changing your views and you are defineatly not changing mine or fooling me. Good luck on the water if you happen to get out this weekend. I'll be primarily after walleyes but I might take a shot at a bass or two. It just might be funner than taking a shot at Basspastor. LOL
It's been a very interesting and eye opening thread, I respect your views and what you have had to say, I might not agree but you have my respect.
Seriously, Have a good one.
Duffman

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I've got too much to get ready for tomorrow, but must make one last observation -- to wit, Basspastor tips his hand by saying it is a burden on him because he cannot do what he wants to do. My my my. Poor immature fellow.

I suppose a natural corollary would be parking in the close-by handicap space, because one might "want to" park closer to the building. There are all sorts of "wants" that adult folk learn to deny.

And finally, this -- a 5 to 6 lb bass on a bed about five feet from my dock was caught today. I happened to be home and looked out the window when it ocurred. I can't be certain, but I believe the guy was going to keep it. He released the husky gal after I went out the door into my yard. Neither of us said a word, but my expression probably registered. About half an hour ago I checked to see if she was back on the bed. She was NOT.

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Word.

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-------------------------
BASS SEASON IS UPON US.
Here Piggy, Piggy, Piggy.
-------------------------

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Two more things to Duffman. Angler Harrasement is an extemely broad catagory. Have you ever had another boat or PWC go screaming by you within casting distance? That is angler harrasement in it's most common form. Happens millions of times every summer. I rest that case.

As for the "out of season" law causing me an unecessary burden. You bet it does. If I want to bass fish in May than I have to drive to Lake Wapo. across the border not to Eagle Lake down the street. If I am a law abiding citizen, I get screwed for no valid reason except that some idiot came up with a stupid restriction back in the day and enough lemmings are not willing to say, this is not right. In my argument against this dumb reguation, I haven't yet mentioned it's economic cost and I am not talking about myself here. Having the phenominal pre-spawn bite closed means less lure sales and trips taken. Those things add up to big dollars for business and gov. going to things other than the intrests and industry of sportsman.

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These are all good points!! To use "poaching" in the subject we are talking about is not right. Poaching is a term used for the TAKING of game out of season. We are debating the ethical issue of catch and release out of season. I can understand everyones point of view here. We need to contact our representitives and bend thier ears!! This is how to get bad laws off the books!!

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One other point to think about here. Say we get the season changed to, open year round. There is a population of people that eat bass, this population of people are also predominately shore fisherman. What happens if these people are allowed to go down to the local lakes, stand on shore and catch spawning bass when the other seasons are not open?? How long before we do notice a change in bass population?? Just because you are not affecting the population, doesn't mean others wouldn't if enabled!!!

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Note to Clayton: It is the males who bed, the females will spawn on several nests. Just because you didn't see bertha does not mean that she was not still around making baby bass.

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I don't know what Ice Hole meant by "minorities" but let's not make any stereotypical remarks please!

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Curious,

Do those of you who are into this discussion(a good one I might add) feel like they have posted their opinions yet? How about others out there?

ANd yes, let's keep the fingerpointing out of discussion, especially stigmatizing groups or individuals!!!! How many times will it take for people to understand how to discuss or argue their viewpoint with out taking it personal or making it personal????

I need a bass to bend my rod!!!

PS. The smallies are hitting very well on the Mississippi, pool 4 and 5!!!! Rip Rap shore lines!!!

Jim W

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Interesting discussion. This is a discussion I have had several times when I lived in South Dakota...it was mentioned earlier that there are no closed seasons, and that is correct. Ever fished for spawning Walleye on Lake Oahe in April? It's pretty amazing. And it is up to the angler to act responsibly...put back the larger spawners...and of course there are those who don't. It is a matter of personal responsibility...all the laws, rules, and regulations mean nothing if people refuse to take some responsibility and conduct themselves in a manner befitting civilized people. I have caught bass out of season (a few weeks ago on the opener, in fact) while fishing for northerns. The bass go right back....
There will always be people who refuse to follow the rules. It is up to the rest of us to conduct ourselves in a responsible manner and set an example. That's the best we can do, until the courts ease the burden of proof to convict someone of illegally fishing...and I don't think we want to go there.

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I can't believe we are still discussing this especially when we all know that there is no guarrantee what is going to bite our lures/or baits. Plus, we have no way of reading someone else's mind. Therefore, being on the positive side of things, we should never assume someone is poaching bass when he/she catches a bass out of season.

It's only illegal if you get caught, however, respectable people avoid the situation altogether.

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Note to Clayton:

You did not quote or paraphrase what I said well at all. I never said anything remotely close to myself being burdened because I cannot do what I want. Go back and look, it is NOT there and in fact that is not even close. I can legally fish for bass if I want, anytime. This is because there are many places where bass are always open. There is a very real burden of added time and expense to get there. This state mandate doesn't so much restrict me as it places financial and practical obstacles in my bass fishing path. And it does that without adequate reason. Even last weekend the vast majority of males on Sylvia/Twin were not yet on nests. So I did get to fish those pre-spawners twice and there is nothing the state could do about it. Why it does anything about it before that is beyond me.

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