Zone 3 deer season changes

[J.A.Say.Tree]

I know that this post is more suited for the "hunting forum," but no one has posted in that area for nearly a month & I think that it is paramount that this be brought up. If you're not a deer hunter, you probably don't need to read on... but if you are, I stongly urge you to get involved.

Last night I attended the Zone 3 deer season changes public input meeting in Rochester. As many of you may know, the DNR is proposing BIG changes to our existing deer seasons. Here is the link to the DNR website to see this proposal:

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/news/releases/index.html?id=1041875434

From the input that I saw and heard last night from approximately 250 attendees, most people are opposed to this proposal. And I couldn't agree more.

Maybe there are "too many deer in SE Minnesota," and more female deer need to be harvested to maintain a healthey herd (& bring the buck to doe ratio closer), but I sincerely believe this is not the way to do it!

The number one concern I have is the already fragile landowner/hunter relationship. By allowing the harvest of does in the 3A season & moving the 3B season up a week, we are asking for nothing short of a debacle!

Hunters who traditionally hunt 3B changing to 3A because they can now shoot a doe. Others changing from 3A to 3B because they now only get 5 days to hunt. This puts landowners, who already have established trusting relationships with hunters, in the very vicarious situation of being forced to "shuffle the deck" and try to figure out who/what/when.

I don't think anyone can say positively what affect this would have, but from my personal experience with landowners I would venture to say that significantly LESS permission for access to private land would be granted. Not to mention, I would not doubt that landowners themselves (or their relatives) will opt to hunt both 3A AND 3B with the all-season deer licence, leaving MANY upset & without a place to hunt.

In these times when hunters are rapidly becoming more and more of the minority in Minnesota, I fear this proposal could lead to a public relations nightmare we cannot afford. Additionally, I feel this would not only leads to crowded public land, but less harvest too!

My suggestion would be to leave the traditional starting dates of the 3A and 3B zone hunts. Cut the 3A season from 9 days to 7 (5 is just too short) to "save more bucks" by not hunting them 2 weekends during the peak of the rut. But leave that season "bucks only." I really don't think that many buck hunters (like myself) are going to harvest a doe anyway. Then add those 2 cut days onto the end of the 3B season and possibly make it "does only." I believe this will not only help the harvest of does, but give kids a greater opportunity to hunt with 2 weekends and the Thanksgiving holiday.

I know the muzzleloader hunters would loose a weekend, but they get 3 weeks anyway. Or just let them hunt that weekend (does only) if they so choose.

These are just my thoughts. I've shared them with the DNR, and I would encourage anyone who has their own opinion to do the same! This proposal is still on the table, so let them know what you think!!!

You can contact Lou Cornicelli (and he will listen) at 651-284-0595 or email him at: [email protected]

JA!

[This message has been edited by J.A.Say.Tree (edited 01-14-2003).]

[james_walleye]

Yep J.A. i've had long conversations with people on this one. I work with a guy who spoke last night. D Williams. We have a lot of the same views and it looks as though you share the same concerns. There are so many other totally obvious ways to accomplish what they say they want too. Harvest more does...let pressure on bucks. I personally think all this is more a money issue than anything. I can't find another way to explain it. All those buck hunters that used to spend $23 on a license will now spend $45 on a multi zone. The DNR isnt stupid...the buck hunters arent going to be happy with one weekend. They'll spend the extra money to get more time.
The arguement about tradition is bogus. One of the biggest traditions that exists is the family of doe hunters hunting around thanksgiving...now thats gone with this proposal.
So simple are some of the things that would up doe harvest and ease up on buck harvest. First move the seasons back a few weeks. Not gun hunting during the rut when they are most vulnerable. How bout a 3 or 4 point rule. Must have three points on one antler. How many bucks would live then? Get rid of the multi zone. How many guys buy this and trophy hunt the majority of the season but end up shooting a small buck at the end for the freezer. How bout finding a way to harvest a tasty doe for the freezer. Got to be ways to incorporate this.
A doe only season being the first gun season. Theres got to be a way to incorporate something like this.
I know all about this survey taken last year in which the majority of people said they were happy with there deer hunting expieriences. I would have liked to have seen this questionaire expanded a little bit. Posing a question like "would you be in favor of changes such as changing the start dates of the seasons if it would increase the odds of seeing more mature bucks." Maybe this question was posed..i dont know. But i cant believe any deer hunter would oppose something like this.

[bitz]

I don't hunt in zone 3 (I hunt in 2) but the problem I see about taking the does in zone 2 are the following: lots of the people I know get a doe permit to keep others from getting them and then never use them. they also shoot a lot of 2,4 or 6 pointers instead of a doe and so those bucks never make it to trophy deer.
I am a freezer hunter and usually pass on a buck for a doe (not that I would pass on a trophy buck) but I do pass on the smaller bucks.
I would suggest the DNR maybe consider that if you ask for a doe permit you might only be able to shoot a doe but get a bonus doe permit to allow you to take 2 deer (lots of management tags up where I hunt)
I find it interesting that most of the people that I know that complain about the lack of trophy deer, are the first to shoot the 4 pointer as it comes by. This year a group of guys I know, shot 14 deer of which 5 were does, 8 had 6 points or less and an 8 pointer. Then they complained about not seeing big bucks. I think the issue is changing the idea that people should not shot the does.

Bitz

[james_walleye]

Bitz thats one thing i forgot to mention in my post. If you get drawn for a doe permit they should make it a regulation that you have to shoot a doe with it. Thats definately a good idea.

[Uncle Grump]

I hunt zone 4 mostly, but have hunted 3B a few times (and shot Does BTW). So DNR wants more Does taken...

Here are some ideas off the top of my head...

1) Swap the 3A and 3B seasons - so that what is now 3A is DOE season - no bucks allowed - period. Keep the length as it is at 9 days (I know this will hurt the kids a bit w/ the Thanksgiving holiday, but having 2 weekends should help make up for that). This moves the buck hunt out of the rut as well.

2) When you buy your deer license - its good for a Doe - auto-magjic. You then would have to apply for a permit to hunt a buck. I don't know that this would work as a region/season type of thing, or if it could work state wide.

3) How about a early muzzle loader season? Does only. I would really enjoy this one.

4) As a follow on to 3, any Doe shot during archery season or a early muzzleoader season would not count against the hunter and gun season as it does currently.

Comments?

UG

[Guest]

Don't think that any change will make everyone happy but from what i have heard as a muzzleloader hunter it will be a nice change. I look forward to maybe getting a shot at a deer that has had a few days to settle down after the shot gun season ends.Personally i wish they would let the one shot onders have the first crack as we only get one shot. Wouldn't that shake things up a bit.What do you think about that point of view? Good fishin and hunting!!! MARK

[MrMuskie]

RODBENDER, You got the right idea. Let the smoke sticks go first, Other states do. Your right, know matter what changes are made someone won't be happy. Just don't feel that WE as Black powers should lose a weekend as J>A>TREE has posted, Just my thoughts. DOUG

[james_walleye]

I've never done the blackpowder thing but i've always wondered why they dont have an early season hunt. I still dont know why MN wont model its season after IA. I dont think anyone is complaining of a shortage of deer down there...but i know how many more mature bucks are running around down there.

[Guest]

You guys are the reason the dear population is the way it is. If you go a look a Wisconsin you will see identical land but two three maybe even four times the trophy bucks, why is that? We go and shoot all the genetic lines before they have a chance to breed and what's left is a bunch of deer that would make a great freek show attraction. If people wanted to be smart let's hunt in January and Febuary, give the bow hunters and the muzzelloaders the first crack and send us all out after the breeding is done. Granted a lot of doe's will get shot but I will promise you that the doe's that made it will have been bred by a hog. Even doe's want the top bucks to bred with not the freak show attractions. Also go and look at the pope and young and boone a crocket entries for 1970 to 1985 and then from 86 to present it will make you sick at the difference, and just for the hell of it compare it to Wisc. Just sit back for a minute and look at the big picture, something needs to be done, and can be, but all that anybody does is wine and cry. Let's make the change it will be difficult for a while but hunters and landowners will work through the situation.

[james_walleye]

Does dont care which buck breeds them. Bucks fight for the right. If a spike buck is there when that doe is in heat and no other buck challenges, the spike gets it done. Does dont search for another buck because the spike isnt worthy. If you want optiumum breeding you would have a doe season before breeding. Eliminate more does, even out the buck/doe ratio and then the dominant mature bucks breed a bigger percentage of does. We want to make changes. But the DNR has to listen a bit.

[Guest]

I don't know where you get your information about bucks and does but you better check again. Does will breed with a scrub buck only when no bigger ones are around, probably because the monsters are on there way to a hunters wall by the time they start breeding. No small buck can beat a monster in a fight that's commen sence, have you guys ever went bow hunting. I don't think so because if you did you would know all about what doe's in heet will do to little undominate bucks. Especially when big bucks are in the area. I do agree that doe's will breed with anything when nothing is around but it shouldn't be that way it isn't in Wisc.(Same type of land we have around here) I will dig through some articles to prove this, but if you guy's get a subscription to Outdoor News check out the Dec issue's there is a great article from a man in Houston MN about all of this.

We should preserve our hunting ground not over run them, that way they will be there for future generations to hunt

[james_walleye]

Gary you just repeated what i just said. Maybe you should read what i posted a little closer. A doe will not let any buck breed her until she is in cycle. When that 24-48 hour window is upon her the most dominant buck that is there will breed. It doesnt matter to her if its a fork or a boone and crockett buck. If shes ready she'll breed. And if the buck/doe ratio is out of whack like it is all around here it doesnt matter if there is a more mature buck in the area because he's more than likely already tending one of the too many does in the area. If she waits for a more mature buck she'll be waiting a heck of a long time with too many does around. Thats why the ratio needs to be evened out. Those young bucks won't have a chance to breed because the does will be tended by the mature bucks.

[Guest]

I didn't really mean that a doe will wait to get bred but she most deffentaly know's which bucks are in the area. A buck doesn't just attend to one doe at a time he's got many does around him when there getting close to breeding, plus the bucks will keep the doe's close to them when the getting get's good, you should know that. What your saying is that a doe, when it goes into heet looks for the first buck it comes upon and breed's with him, that's not so and I bet a heck of a lot of other sportsmen out there will tell you the same. I'm no expert on this but I have seen this first hand with 15 years of bowhunting plus gun hunting to boot. Doe's look for the top dog on the block if there isn't one I would agree that they would breed with the next biggest and then the next but there arn't many bucks around come breeding season IS THERE

[james_walleye]

I'm surely not saying a doe searches out any bucks. I'm saying there is a 24-48 hour window in which they will breed. Bucks know when this is getting close. This is when you'll see a buck separate a doe from the group and chase her hardcore. I've seen 150" bucks do this, i've seen yearlings do this. Now hopefully when this window hits there is a mature buck thats found her. But in many cases that hasnt happened and its a yearling buck. The area i hunted this past year i personally saw 2 mature bucks. I'm sure there were probably more. But everytime i saw a buck that was tending a doe it was a yearling. Knowing the buck/doe ratio is so screwed up, i'm thinking its about 8:1 or worse, the mature bucks were already tending to does in heat. If you too many does in an area and only 2 or 3 mature bucks, they obviously can't tend to every hot doe that comes in too heat. Thats why in the last 4 years my friend and i have shot 1 mature buck out of there, passed up probably 4 young bucks each year, and shot a total of 12 does using intensive harvest and management tags. But with only 2 of us doing this i dont think it does much.

[Guest]

I can't belive you've hunted all them years and seen all them deer and you are going to tell me that a buck breeds with one doe and then goes onto the next NOT TRUE I have seen bucks especially like the middle of December when the doe's really start to go into heet with 5 doe's. I'm sure some bucks have even more, and he will play with all of them all day long. How many times hunting the end of December can you tell me that you have seen a buck with only one doe. BULL he will have many. You also make it sound like they breed once and that's it. A buck will breed with her many times to make sure the seed got planted. My point to all of this is let them breed, then let's go get em not like now when we harvest before they breed. Atleast give the genetic lines a chance for survival instead of eliminating them.

[james_walleye]

Ok im done with this arguement. Anything who thinks a buck with 5 does is breeding them all at once...i wont continue this. And breeding them all in the middle of December at that. We arent talking about a bull elk with his harem of females.

[james_walleye]

Just because you see a buck with does doesnt mean hes breeding any of them. I highly doubt the spike i saw in the middle of December with 13 does was breeding them.

[Guest]

I think you know what i meant by the buck breeding 5 doe's You guys need to look at the big picture WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT A BUCK ONLY BREEDS WITH ONE DOE AND THEN WHEN HE IS DONE WITH HER HE MOVES ONTO THE NEXT/ BULL IT'S A KNOWN FACT THAT THE BUCK WILL KIND OF HAVE THEM SELVES A LITTLE HEIRUM, HE WILL BREED DOE ONE THEN DOE THREE THEN FOUR THEN BACK TO ONE WHATEVER, THAT'S WHAT HE WILL DO AND ABOUT THE SPIKE, IF ALL THE HUNTERS IN THE AREA SHOT ALL THE BUCKS LIKE MY AREA YOU WILL HAVE SPIKES BREEDING MATURE DOE'S, NOT GOOD. IF YOU HUNTED AT ALL YOU WOULD KNOW THAT 75 PERCENT OF ALL BREEDING HAPPENS IN THE MONTH'S OF DEC AND EARLY JANUARY. THE RUT DOESN'T START UNTILL THE BEG. OF NOV AND DOE'S DON'T START GOING INTO HEET UNTILL THE 2ND TO 3RD WEEKS OF NOV. AND THAT'S THE EARLIEST DOE'S I'M NOT DEBATING WHAT DEER DO BECAUSE I KNOW THIS ALREADY BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS LET EM BREED BEFORE WE HUNT THEM

[This message has been edited by garyrichardclark (edited 01-22-2003).]

[Guest]

garyrichardclark

If I read you correctly you would wait to hunt the bucks untill after the rut. Corrcet so far??
Then the does would be bred,so they can carry on the blood likes of the big bucks,right.

The problem I see here is that people slaughter the does and fawns,with extensive harvest tags and doe tags. Then the bucks blood line dies. Not a good plan as I see it.

I think, just my opinion, we should have a min. size. Like they have in other states.
Like a 4 point on one side or better.

I would like to see an early ML season like Iowa has too.

One other thing I thought the all season licence did not include the 3b season???

[Guest]

Ok Bigfoot what you are saying makes no sence. To me the aprox. same amount of doe's would be shot WOULDN"T you think. You don't know what you are talking about what I said is give them a chance to breed then it's survival of the fittest. Sure Big bucks little buck and big doe's and little doe's will be shot but the same number as now and since the big bucks would have been around to breed there would be more of a chance of the gentics getting passed

TRUE OR FALSE

[Rippinlip]

Just a thought:

Minnium size thing would be tough, to create a good bloodline you have to take out the scrubs and freaks once in a while.
Here is another
Why not have people send in for the permits in a party. A group of 10 would get 7 doe permits and 3 Buck permits for example and make it a longer season and one season.
You would still have enough time for hunters to share land and take out the heavily influenced Doe population.

[Guest]

What you are saying is true, it would be very hard to have a size limit on bucks and yes you are right a few scrubs and smaller bucks need to be harvested. I think what you are saying is a good idea but wouldn't you think that people should be giving a doe permit and then apply for a buck tag, that would deffinatly keep the pressure off of the bucks. I know this won't work in every season but it could in 3a and 3b. The DNR could issue buck permits like they issue doe permits. The only problem I see with going in one season around zone 3a and b is that there are so many hunters around here, and I can remember when the DNR extended the season in January that year, they said they wouldn't do it again because of all the complaints they had, I think they said there were around 50,000 hunters hunting at once.

[iffwalleyes]

Everyone here is a wild idea. Actually it really makes sense and I can't believe the state of MN hasn't figured it out. I used to be a resident of MN and now ND. I hunt both stated and I think that MN should adopt a lottery system like ND. In ND you apply for a buck or doe tag. The state allows so many bucks to be taken and once they are used up then you have a choice of taking a doe or nothing. On the app you select either buck as primary and doe as alternative or buck/buck and if you don't get selected your licsense fee is refund or you can go doe/doe what ever you want. Also you could have a differend hunting zone to try and get drawen for a buck in. Anyhow the buck to do ratio is much lower out here in ND than in MN. By doing what they are doing they are regulating it much better than we do in MN. If they feel there to many does in on area then get applied for then they have a second drawing and if there are still some left then they have a 3 drawing so a person could shoot 3 does, 1 buck and 2 does depending on the liscense. In MN when I get a doe tag it doesn't force me to shoot a doe were as in ND if you have a doe tag that is what you have to shoot. So what do you guys think does this sound like a good idea let me know what you think. SD has something similar to ND if I remember right. If any of you have questions about the ND regulations email me and I will try my best to answer [email protected].

[Guest]

I think that a lottery system such as yours would be great. I was thinking along them same lines. If you would give everyone atleast in zone 3 a doe tag and then make them apply for a buck liscence it would help out a great deal. You could also do things like deer hunters that only want to hunt buck to give them a prefrence system in the drawing if they draw a buck tag they get to hunt or wait till next year, then you would give them a tag the next year, but they would for go any doe hunting, if they wern't drawn.

The most important thing I believe is that you have to move the deer season back out of the Rut time and after the holidays. Yes it would be a little colder and deeper snow but it would hold down on some of the numbers of deer hunters out and deer taken, on the other hand it would be an advantage to hunt when there would most likely be snow on the ground, anyone knows how much easier it is to pick out deer out of the snow.

If MN made them two changes it would make a huge difference, the only draw back to the whole deal is you would have to wait 7 to 10 years to really see results

[USPENAMC]

Landowners,

Are any of you people land owners, ranchers farmers that would consider My Father and Myself to hunt your land. For a Fee. This past year was my first year hunting in Minnesota and we spent most of our time driving around searching for somewhere to hunt. We went to the 3a area last time. I dont really want to pay 3000 dollars for a hunt like some places ask for. But i dont expect to hunt someones land for free. Its a long ways away but I thought this year i should prepare with time. Or if anyone knows some good Public hunting areas anywhere. Im planning on getting a multi zone deer license this year so i can try different spots. Any responses would be greatly appreciated. Im looking to hunt during the regular fire arms season.

Thank you,

David Pena
[email protected]