Disbelief - mille lacs walleyes - harvest decisions

[monstermoose78]

When the fishery people ask if you caught any walleyes say none because that’s how they are getting the crazy hooking mortality rates. 

[DLD24]

I've been out there probably 6 times and I think I've seen 1 dead walleye floating. 

[ANYFISH2]

1 hour ago, monstermoose78 said:

When the fishery people ask if you caught any walleyes say none because that’s how they are getting the crazy hooking mortality rates. 

Thats terrible advice, Moose!

Thought we encouraged ETHICAL behavior!

Whether or not you agree with thier models or actions, why would you intentionally give bad Info!??

Bad data equals bad results!

Give accurate information, that leads to good and accurate BIOLOGICAL data.

Unfortunately, in the past  and present decisions are not made based on biology, too much socio-political decisions being made.

 

[Rick]

47 minutes ago, ANYFISH2 said:

Thats terrible advice, Moose!

Thought we encouraged ETHICAL behavior!

Whether or not you agree with thier models or actions, why would you intentionally give bad Info!??

Bad data equals bad results!

Give accurate information, that leads to good and accurate BIOLOGICAL data.

Unfortunately, in the past  and present decisions are not made based on biology, too much socio-political decisions being made.

 

Until things change on Mille Lacs with respect to netting, the ethical response would be, "I'm not giving you any info until harvest decisions on this lake are not based on politics."

I think the real question is "Are they using the data for the good of all or the good of a privileged few?"

[monstermoose78]

If you all listen to Steve Johnson from Johnson’s portside you would understand the dnr gets this made hooking mortality rate from the creel counters aka fisheries staff.  If we all said we caught zero walleyes there would be no hooking mortality and bingo we could have a season to keep walleyes. But if you choose to brag about catching 10-50 walleyes per trip to the creel counters we will not have a season as the made up hooking mortality number will say we are over the pounds of fish. 

You are all big boys and can do whatever your little hearts desire, but I am saying no walleyes caught by me.

[monstermoose78]

4 hours ago, ANYFISH2 said:

Thats terrible advice, Moose!

Thought we encouraged ETHICAL behavior!

Whether or not you agree with thier models or actions, why would you intentionally give bad Info!??

Bad data equals bad results!

Give accurate information, that leads to good and accurate BIOLOGICAL data.

Unfortunately, in the past  and present decisions are not made based on biology, too much socio-political decisions being made.

 

That hookIng mortality rate is hog wash!! The bite on Mille Lacs Lake is the best bite in the state. That’s why the accesses are full and the resorts have people. So let’s use a huge number to make up bad data because there formula for hooking mortality is flawed !! There you have it folks!! 

[Borch]

It's the reason I stopped fishing Mille Lacs years ago.  Politics...

[ANYFISH2]

Although I agree with Mr.Johnson in most respects, I choose to remain open minded and not pick sides based on emotion or bias.

I will continue to, and encourage others to HONESTLY participate with data collection for our biologists.  If the data is good, it gives us the power to dispute the decision makers.

If we give false information, WE ARE THE PROBLEM!

 

[monstermoose78]

2 hours ago, ANYFISH2 said:

Although I agree with Mr.Johnson in most respects, I choose to remain open minded and not pick sides based on emotion or bias.

I will continue to, and encourage others to HONESTLY participate with data collection for our biologists.  If the data is good, it gives us the power to dispute the decision makers.

If we give false information, WE ARE THE PROBLEM!

 

You have your opinion and I have mine please respect that!! 

[ANYFISH2]

I have always respected you Moose!

I am more than happy to call out the promotion of falsehood, however.

We can have a discussion cant we? Even though we may disagree.

Fishing is great on Mille Lacs, people are fishing and visiting the area, isn't that what we want?

So we cant keep any fish for the last couple summers, not the end of the world.

At least we didnt have a crash that had to shut the lake completely down for walleye fishing for 6-7 years.  Maybe we should have, but what would the area look like then?

The lake cant rebound in one year, especially if you only get a good class once a decade.

[Borch]

Personally I've never have had an issue for management based on biology.  I may not always agree with the decisions but it's a lot easier to swallow based on why they are doing what they are doing.   But management based on politics, often at the expense of the fishery is more of an issue for me personally.  Yes, the fishing is great right now.  My concerns are the long term impacts and we have seen it where entire year classes have been removed due to the "management" of the resource.  It must be tough to figure out how to keep harvest within the allowed pounds not knowing how many fishing hours will be on the lake each year.

I'm happy that there are a lot of people up there fishing and visiting the resorts.  I personally don't like misleading anyone and there are a lot of great lakes in Minnesota to fish.  So that is a choice I usually make.  

[monstermoose78]

It’s great to see people fishing and helping the resorts as they need it. It makes me sad to see the dnr with some made up hooking mortality percent that we all know is way to high. I agree to disagree @ANYFISH2 . I would like to see a first 2 fish limit and you are done fishing as South Dakota  has on some of there lakes for Mille lacs but I know that will not happen. I fish Mille Lacs for perch and panfish and if I catch a walleye its ok but they fight like a wet sock and taste like whatever you cook them in. I want a balanced lake where the perch can come back in numbers.

[Tom Sawyer]

10 hours ago, monstermoose78 said:

The bite on Mille Lacs Lake is the best bite in the state

Couldn't agree more Nick 

[gimruis]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 1:09 PM, monstermoose78 said:

That hookIng mortality rate is hog wash!! The bite on Mille Lacs Lake is the best bite in the state. That’s why the accesses are full and the resorts have people. So let’s use a huge number to make up bad data because there formula for hooking mortality is flawed !! There you have it folks!!  

The hooking mortality rate is not hogwash.  I was an intern during a tagging study years ago and I worked with the biologists responsible for the management of that lake on a regular basis.  They are hard working people with advanced science degrees that use consistent fisheries population models based on statistical data to recommend regulations.  Of course the resorts and meat hunters aren't going to like it.  They would rather rape and pillage that lake until every single fish was gone and then blame the DNR for it afterwards because they failed to manage it.  Hooking mortality is based on many factors including the number of anglers, water temperature, and especially the use of live bait.  Mortality would go down by up to 60% if people used artificial lures instead of live bait.  But no, people just gotta sit there with a cork and leech instead.  God forbid they should try anything else.

Choosing to lie to the surveyors and interns may not be illegal, but its certainly unethical.  They rely on that data to make sound management decisions.  The DNR called in the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission last year to look at their management of the lake using their own science-based tools for an independent study and found that the DNR's policies were accurate and true.  I don't know what else more you people want other than to fill your live wells and freezers with filets.  If you can't go fishing without harvesting something, then you're doing it for the wrong reason.

 

[Rick]

3 hours ago, gimruis said:

The hooking mortality rate is not hogwash.  I was an intern during a tagging study years ago and I worked with the biologists responsible for the management of that lake on a regular basis.  They are hard working people with advanced science degrees that use consistent fisheries population models based on statistical data to recommend regulations.  Of course the resorts and meat hunters aren't going to like it.  They would rather rape and pillage that lake until every single fish was gone and then blame the DNR for it afterwards because they failed to manage it.  Hooking mortality is based on many factors including the number of anglers, water temperature, and especially the use of live bait.  Mortality would go down by up to 60% if people used artificial lures instead of live bait.  But no, people just gotta sit there with a cork and leech instead.  God forbid they should try anything else.

Choosing to lie to the surveyors and interns may not be illegal, but its certainly unethical.  They rely on that data to make sound management decisions.  The DNR called in the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission last year to look at their management of the lake using their own science-based tools for an independent study and found that the DNR's policies were accurate and true.  I don't know what else more you people want other than to fill your live wells and freezers with filets.  If you can't go fishing without harvesting something, then you're doing it for the wrong reason.

 

Awesome response.

I think what folks are looking for is a well managed lake. While the data may be accurate the management decisions are political in nature. That's what we need to move away from.

[monstermoose78]

3 hours ago, gimruis said:

The hooking mortality rate is not hogwash.  I was an intern during a tagging study years ago and I worked with the biologists responsible for the management of that lake on a regular basis.  They are hard working people with advanced science degrees that use consistent fisheries population models based on statistical data to recommend regulations.  Of course the resorts and meat hunters aren't going to like it.  They would rather rape and pillage that lake until every single fish was gone and then blame the DNR for it afterwards because they failed to manage it.  Hooking mortality is based on many factors including the number of anglers, water temperature, and especially the use of live bait.  Mortality would go down by up to 60% if people used artificial lures instead of live bait.  But no, people just gotta sit there with a cork and leech instead.  God forbid they should try anything else.

Choosing to lie to the surveyors and interns may not be illegal, but its certainly unethical.  They rely on that data to make sound management decisions.  The DNR called in the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission last year to look at their management of the lake using their own science-based tools for an independent study and found that the DNR's policies were accurate and true.  I don't know what else more you people want other than to fill your live wells and freezers with filets.  If you can't go fishing without harvesting something, then you're doing it for the wrong reason.

 

I release 90% of time if not more. But if you have been on Mille Lacs you know there tons of walleyes in the lake. There so many big fish they are eating most of the little fish. I have seen very few walleyes floating this year, but as the water warms more will die. I hate to see fish wasted floating around stinking up the lake. I am not breaking any rules or doing anything unethical in my opinion. 

[Wanderer]

Maybe start using circle hooks out there when fishing live bait....

[Hookmaster]

I've been using circle hooks for rigging for about 8 years but can't get anybody else to use them. Way, way less gut hooked fish.

[ANYFISH2]

So, a few questions for all of us.

Do we trust any of the population data released to the public?

How much weight should hooking mortality carry?

What seems like a resonable limit/regulation in your opinion?

My opinion is co-management has been a failure.  Trying to divide an estimate by more estimates is a near impossible task. 

The population statistics I trust as a measuring point only.  If methods, and sampling locations have been thr same year after year for years they are a great measure of how the population is trending.  Recently, I believe the methods/locations have been adjusted. If true, my confidence level on the statistics is lower vs. historical data.

Hooking morality is a valuable tool in my opinion.  However, it should not be used as a harvest number during a catch and release season in my opinion. If i remember correctly, the DNR has adjusted the percentages in the last year or two.

I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to say what a reg should be right now.  I do have a great fear we are on the brink of repeating past errors on managing the lake.  As important as having a healthy brood stock is to Mille Lacs is, we may be allowing the population to be dominated by large fish again.  If we can get consistant year classes, they dont have to be great, I would like to see s 2 fish limit, 1 over, 1 under 20" regulation to even out harvest over all year classes.

That of course would require proof of enough small fish coming up behind this large 2013 year class.

 

[monstermoose78]

41 minutes ago, ANYFISH2 said:

So, a few questions for all of us.

Do we trust any of the population data released to the public?

How much weight should hooking mortality carry?

What seems like a resonable limit/regulation in your opinion?

My opinion is co-management has been a failure.  Trying to divide an estimate by more estimates is a near impossible task. 

The population statistics I trust as a measuring point only.  If methods, and sampling locations have been thr same year after year for years they are a great measure of how the population is trending.  Recently, I believe the methods/locations have been adjusted. If true, my confidence level on the statistics is lower vs. historical data.

Hooking morality is a valuable tool in my opinion.  However, it should not be used as a harvest number during a catch and release season in my opinion. If i remember correctly, the DNR has adjusted the percentages in the last year or two.

I am certainly not knowledgeable enough to say what a reg should be right now.  I do have a great fear we are on the brink of repeating past errors on managing the lake.  As important as having a healthy brood stock is to Mille Lacs is, we may be allowing the population to be dominated by large fish again.  If we can get consistant year classes, they dont have to be great, I would like to see s 2 fish limit, 1 over, 1 under 20" regulation to even out harvest over all year classes.

That of course would require proof of enough small fish coming up behind this large 2013 year class.

 

I don’t trust the populations the dnr puts out to the public. The dnr says there are about as many wolves as moose. I see more wolves than moose. Lake trout numbers in Lake Superior are according to dnr are high but I can’t catch a laker from shore anymore near Grand Marais. However when stocking was taking place up there we caught lots of fish from shore.

Hooking mortality should not be such a huge number. I agree with others to use circle hooks. 

Limits as you mentioned 2 fish and I can go along with your size to keep some of other year classes. I think the first two fish you catch and your done would prevent additional fish from dying as well. I know some will say 2 is not enough but that’s a heck of a meal for 2 people. 

I just want the lake to taken care of for everyone. I want the resorts to do well and the native Americans to be happy and have the perch come back to decent numbers. I used to catch ton of perch on Mille Lacs and get enough nice ones for a meal, but the last 10 years or so have not been good. Yes some big ones each are caught but not numbers. I like 10-12 inch perch to eat, but and I toss back the big ones which is any perch over 12 inches.

I live close enough to Mille Lacs to fish it fairly often but normally in the winter. With that said with the low perch numbers I have not been going up there like I used too. I do hit Mille Lacs for panfish and normally release them all. The lake is being miss managed for everyone. 

 

[Borch]

When the lakes was being managed more aggressively to stay within the quota I recommended a total inch daily limit versus 15-17" at that time.  I was told it would be difficult to enforce.   My concern was target one or two year classes without exception would give us a very predictable outcome over several seasons.  Lots of bigger fish with little to replace them.  Bigger fish are nice but they require more food per fish and there is only so much available. 

Spread that harvest out over multiple year classes results in a healthier fishery.  Again just my opinion without any formal fisheries training.

Hooking mortality varies so much that it's hard to attach a hard number to it.  Fish pulled out of 35 feet of water are going to have a much higher mortality than those caught in 10 feet of water.   Knowing this shapes how I choose to fish if I plan on releasing fish.

[BobT]

On 7/2/2018 at 8:02 AM, gimruis said:

The hooking mortality rate is not hogwash.  I was an intern during a tagging study years ago and I worked with the biologists responsible for the management of that lake on a regular basis.  They are hard working people with advanced science degrees that use consistent fisheries population models based on statistical data to recommend regulations.  Of course the resorts and meat hunters aren't going to like it.  They would rather rape and pillage that lake until every single fish was gone and then blame the DNR for it afterwards because they failed to manage it.  Hooking mortality is based on many factors including the number of anglers, water temperature, and especially the use of live bait.  Mortality would go down by up to 60% if people used artificial lures instead of live bait.  But no, people just gotta sit there with a cork and leech instead.  God forbid they should try anything else.

Choosing to lie to the surveyors and interns may not be illegal, but its certainly unethical.  They rely on that data to make sound management decisions.  The DNR called in the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission last year to look at their management of the lake using their own science-based tools for an independent study and found that the DNR's policies were accurate and true.  I don't know what else more you people want other than to fill your live wells and freezers with filets.  If you can't go fishing without harvesting something, then you're doing it for the wrong reason.

 

How do they determine the mortality rate? They need to know how many fish are released and then somehow identify those that died as a result. How do they do this or is it just a guess? If the latter, then it is far from scientific and they are not applying their "advanced science degrees."

[ANYFISH2]

This raises a few questions for me!!

How is our average fish just under 3lbs per fish and Tribal take 1/2lb per fish?

This is not a shot at tribal fishing by the way.  Just questionable.

[Sculpin]

Bear in mind that the elusive "hooking mortality" numbers come from more than direct conversation with anglers departing the lake.  Some of the numbers are simply based upon observations from public landings, how many boats are seen fishing, how many people per boat, etc.  They do not take into consideration bass fishermen, muskie fishermen, water-skiers, people cruising, etc. It is a very complex formula, and it seems like the DNR cannot quantify or explain it themselves. In a word "ridiculous"

In addition, there is no "mortality" assessed to the tribal "fishermen" They can harvest 10 per day any size, any time, any place.

If any other major walleye lake in the state applied the same silly logic, or lack of same, they would be capped out by the fourth of July. If hooking mortality ever comes to Leech, Winnie, Vermilion, Cass, etc. and the DNR utilizes the same "formula" its all over...Vermilion is a prime example, I think their allowable harvest is something like 65,000. Hooking mortality alone would wipe that out..

In addition, 20,000 walleyes were tagged this spring, if you catch one, please submit the tag info to the DNR, it may help show that catch and release works.  

[gimruis]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 11:11 PM, monstermoose78 said:

I don’t trust the populations the dnr puts out to the public. The dnr says there are about as many wolves as moose. I see more wolves than moose. Lake trout numbers in Lake Superior are according to dnr are high but I can’t catch a laker from shore anymore near Grand Marais. However when stocking was taking place up there we caught lots of fish from shore.

Whether you trust them or not, they are accurate.  I have my doubts too but I certainly trust someone with a science degree who does this for a living more than I trust my own judgement, or yours.  Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there.  I've never seen either a wolf OR a moose other than at a zoo, but they are certainly present in the wild.

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 11:11 PM, monstermoose78 said:

The lake is being miss managed for everyone. 

The lake is not being mismanaged for everyone.  Bass anglers and muskie anglers are enjoying what is perhaps the golden age of their target species out there right now.  Its ranked #1 in the country for bass fishing and #6 in the country for muskie fishing.  So clearly, something is being done right for those game fish species.  People are coming up from Texas, Alabama, and Missouri to bass fish.  I know this because I saw the license plates of their trailers at the accesses this spring.  I'm not saying that I agree with how the lake is managed for walleyes and certainly I disagree with the tribal harvest of spawning fish, but to say that the lake is mismanaged for everyone is totally not true.

 

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 10:01 AM, BobT said:

How do they determine the mortality rate? They need to know how many fish are released and then somehow identify those that died as a result. How do they do this or is it just a guess? If the latter, then it is far from scientific and they are not applying their "advanced science degrees."

Bob, like I mentioned, the hooking mortality is a complicated number that's based on many factors like angling pressure, catch rate, water temperature, and the use of live bait.  The use of live bait during the warmest time of the year (July-August) are the single biggest determining factors.  As for exactly how they determine the hooking mortality numbers in specific detail, you'll have to contact the DNR on that one or attend one of their public meetings on the subject for answers.  Some people refer to it as "ridiculous."

Sculpin, you bring up other lakes and compare them to Mille Lacs.  Those lakes are not the same.  They all lie further north, they are not as big, they are deeper, and they don't receive nearly the angling pressure.  The primary reason the Mille Lacs has traditionally been so popular among anglers is because of its proximity to more people.  The Twin Cities is about 90 minutes away and St Cloud/Brainerd are both within an hour.

The issue at hand in the immediate future is the skewed population of incredibly large walleyes.  They are an eating machine.  When they run out of perch and ciscoes, they eat each other.  And that poses a significant problem for recruitment of young fish for the future.

[monstermoose78]

25 minutes ago, gimruis said:

 

The lake is not being mismanaged for everyone.  Bass anglers and muskie anglers are enjoying what is perhaps the golden age of their target species out there right now.  Its ranked #1 in the country for bass fishing and #6 in the country for muskie fishing.  So clearly, something is being done right for those game fish species.  People are coming up from Texas, Alabama, and Missouri to bass fish.  I know this because I saw the license plates of their trailers at the accesses this spring.  I'm not saying that I agree with how the lake is managed for walleyes and certainly I disagree with the tribal harvest of spawning fish, but to say that the lake is mismanaged for everyone is totally not true.

Why are the Bass people going nuts because of increased number of fish that can be harvested. Muskies need to be harvested as well, but musky people will say the opposite. Why stock fish no one can keep. O let’s blame pike, smallies, and muskies for the decline in walleyes numbers. O wait there is no decline!! Mille Lacs is close to huge population of people and receives a huge amount of fishing pressure compared to many other lakes. The lake is being mismanaged and that is my opinion and majority of others opinions. 

I just want the perch fishing to come back some and with all those big eyes in the lake it’s not going to happen!! I want to see the resorts make money and people passing fishing on to the next generation!!

[Sculpin]

Sorry,  but I did not in fact "compare" any other lakes to Mille Lacs, I simply pointed out that if they profiled some of the major walleye lakes with hooking mortality the way they do Mille Lacs, that a cry would go up across the land, and perhaps people would take notice. Its only fair, and if the "science" is right, lets roll it out for all the lakes. Its gotta be good ???

Your points are well taken, but as I'm sure you know, summer "mortality" takes place everywhere,  as it does in winter. How many gut hooked 10" saugers do you suppose went back under the ice at LOTWS last winter ?? In fact, angling pressure at Red Lake, LOTWS, and Leech, season wide, is almost comparable to Mille Lacs, and in the case of Red, may have exceeded it.

I would also add, that I personally participated in a 2 year hooking mortality study on Mille Lacs. I fished as a volunteer, and we fished Rocks, Mud, and Sand, Live bait, as well as artificial baits. In a nutshell, each volunteer boat got a 25 gallon plastic tub, and an air horn. When you caught a fish, you placed it in the tub you had filled with surface  water, blew the horn ,and a boat would come and take your fish, measure it, ask how you caught it, and then throw it in their tub, and transport it to a net set up in the fishing area, the net was about 25ft deep, like a giant fish basket, and maybe 6 ft in diameter, with a big ring float attached to it. I think they kept them in there for at least 3 days, maybe 5, can't recall. Seemingly, nothing to eat, basically in a big bag. nothing ever came of it, but they "thought" they could prescribe lower mortality as a result. A total boondoggle.

At the end of the day you can't make this poop up. Most people have no idea of what a total cluster it's been at Mille Lacs for the last 20 years. Big fish eating little fish, ?? Guess what, this is about the third cycle of that scenario, with no end in sight.  They are learning as they go, and scratching their collective heads harder all the time. Zeeb's, water clarity, zooplankton, spiny water fleas, milfoil, cannibalization, perch cycles, et.al. On it goes. In addition, they can't agree with the Tribes about anything.......NOTHING. It's why they never agreed upon a safe harvest level this year. 

I do not care to speak to the creel folks. You are under no obligation to do so, and I have no ill will toward them, but its nothing more than a bunch of guesstimates, darts, Ouija, and tarot cards.  The blue ribbon panel notwithstanding. One gentleman on the north end has been doing it for decades, a good guy, and even he does believe the numbers, and nor should YOU.

Mille lacs will NEVER be more than a 2 fish lake, which is fine, but I hope they hurry, I'm not getting any younger..       

[BobT]

19 hours ago, Sculpin said:

I would also add, that I personally participated in a 2 year hooking mortality study on Mille Lacs. I fished as a volunteer, and we fished Rocks, Mud, and Sand, Live bait, as well as artificial baits. In a nutshell, each volunteer boat got a 25 gallon plastic tub, and an air horn. When you caught a fish, you placed it in the tub you had filled with surface  water, blew the horn ,and a boat would come and take your fish, measure it, ask how you caught it, and then throw it in their tub, and transport it to a net set up in the fishing area, the net was about 25ft deep, like a giant fish basket, and maybe 6 ft in diameter, with a big ring float attached to it. I think they kept them in there for at least 3 days, maybe 5, can't recall. Seemingly, nothing to eat, basically in a big bag.

Placing a wild fish in such a small confined area could have in itself added more stress to the fish causing mortality to one that may have survived outside the jail. 

[gimruis]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 12:46 PM, monstermoose78 said:

Why stock fish no one can keep.

Just because you can't or don't harvest them doesn't mean they aren't worth targeting.  Bass and musky anglers pursue their target species because they enjoy it, not because they want to harvest them.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Like it or not, that is the trend in today's modern fishing world.  Over harvest of our fish populations is exactly what has led to the decline of those species.  People need to get over the idea of targeting fish solely for the sake of keeping them (aka the meat hunters).

I see your point on the perch, and I agree.  They represent the food that a lot of fish in that lake like to eat and when they are not present in sustainable numbers, there are too many mouths to feed.

[ANYFISH2]

2 hours ago, gimruis said:

  People need to get over the idea of targeting fish solely for the sake of keeping them (aka the meat hunters).

Sorry If this looks out of context.

I disagree with this part of your statement.

Harvesting fish for  Food is the most reasonable and excepted reason to fish.

To imply it not the right reason to fish is obsured.

Now, reguarding trying to protect species and populations, we should be happy to forgo our harvest to help the populations.  That is, if some are truly concerned for the fish, and not thier freezers.