Buffers?

[Scott M]

Can't believe there is no buffer talk going here. Hope to see this passed but I think there will be a strong lobby to kill it.

[laker1]

Long overdue. Nobody has the right to have pesticides,fertilizer or cattle waste runoff and other wastes go downstream.

[delcecchi]

I saw one post somewhere on hso or fm, mentioned how much it would cost the farmers and pointed out that in their county the ditches have ridges (they dug them and left the spoil along side) so no surface water, only tile outlets, gets into the ditch.

You might be able to find it with some searching.

Also see the hso/hunting/pheasants board

[creepworm]

Long overdue. Nobody has the right to have pesticides,fertilizer or cattle waste runoff and other wastes go downstream.

I agree. So why are lakeshore homeowners exempt from this law?

[BobT]

I agree. So why are lakeshore homeowners exempt from this law?

Or any homeowner for that matter. Water runoff from peoples' lawns in cities and towns often go downstream.

[delcecchi]

Or any homeowner for that matter. Water runoff from peoples' lawns in cities and towns often go downstream.

Cuz state makes cities treat stormwater?

[BobT]

Cuz state makes cities treat stormwater?

Somehow I find it hard to believe an area the size of the metro can possibly handle all the runoff from the streets following a major storm or even moderate one. I would like to be proven wrong though.

[53orbigger]

Stormwater is not treated before it is dumped into our lakes/rivers/streams and it carries a lot of pollutants and trash.

[creepworm]

Stormwater is not treated before it is dumped into our lakes/rivers/streams and it carries a lot of pollutants and trash.

Some municipalities do treat their stormwater. Most do not.

[fishingstar]

we (the lake association,MPCA) have been trying to work with the farmers to plant a buffer around there intakes. The MPCA is willing to pay them but they will not have anything to do with it. We have a farmer that plants up to the top of a 15' bank. We have not only chemicals, fertilizer, also 1/2 mile of shore line's top soil washing down the bank.

[creepworm]

we (the lake association,MPCA) have been trying to work with the farmers to plant a buffer around there intakes. The MPCA is willing to pay them but they will not have anything to do with it. We have a farmer that plants up to the top of a 15' bank. We have not only chemicals, fertilizer, also 1/2 mile of shore line's top soil washing down the bank.

How many members of the lake association have a buffer on their shoreline? How many members of the lake association have suffered erosion along their shoreline? How many members have ripped up Bull Rushes? How many members of the lake association have removed weeds to create a swimming area?

My old man always told me "don't point fingers unless your hands are clean". Just about all of the homeowners on Star Lake have very dirty hands.

[BobT]

I'm also curious how much help the MPCA is offering farmers to plant buffers. Making an offer and making a reasonable offer are two different things. I have to certify that I conform to certain minimum standards with regard to the feedlot for our 4 horses and the runoff from buildings on my property and provide suitable buffers to adjoining wetlands and drainage adjacent to these areas and buildings.

[fishingstar]

We have our anual meeting in May the MPCA will be there I will ask how much they are paying.

The run off coming off a field that is worked yearly will have a lot more soil erosion then a home owner has.

The amount of chemicals and fertilizer that a framer puts down does not compare to the amount that a home owner applies. I'm not saying that the home owner is not innocent everybody has to do there part.

[BobT]

We have our anual meeting in May the MPCA will be there I will ask how much they are paying.

The run off coming off a field that is worked yearly will have a lot more soil erosion then a home owner has.

The amount of chemicals and fertilizer that a framer puts down does not compare to the amount that a home owner applies. I'm not saying that the home owner is not innocent everybody has to do there part.

Agreed on the soil erosion. Loose soil will certainly be more susceptible to erosion.

Yes and no on the fertilizer application. Homeowners aren't fertilizing from a business perspective. However, farmers are running a business and with any business, it can be important to keep costs as low as possible. In recent years, the cost of fertilizers, insecticides, and herbicides have been on the increase and will affect the bottom line. With the exception of a few that have no clue how to run an ag business, I propose that most farmers these days have some training (college) or have done research on their own to understand the implications of over-applying fertilizers, insecticides, and herbicides. More is not always better and in fact can be disastrous.

On the other hand it would not surprise me if the average homeowner even knows how or where to get their soils tested or actually do it on a regular basis and then takes the time to measure the amounts they apply. Instead they've got a bucket in their hand and toss it out on the lawn willy-nilly as the mood takes them. I know I've done it.

[creepworm]

Instead they've got a bucket in their hand and toss it out on the lawn willy-nilly as the mood takes them. I know I've done it.

Just this morning I sold fertilizer to a guy for his lawn. He is putting it down at a rate of roughly 650 lbs to the acre. Not even 2 weeks ago we were coming up with his fertilizer plan for his fields and 300 lbs per acre is all he was willing to do for his corn.

This guy sums up what happens every day. Someone that wants to fertilize a lawn or a garden pours it on thick. Farmers generally are trying to put the least on possible and still get a crop.

[fishingstar]

It all depends on how much potash or anhydrous they are putting down

[creepworm]

It all depends on how much potash or anhydrous they are putting down

Really, I guess I need an explanation of this statement. I also need an explantion as to why the Potash is specifically worse than other fertilizer sources. I also need an explanation as to why nitrogen from from anhydrous is worse than nitrogen from urea, uan, ams, or any other nitrogen fertilizer source.

Maybe I am wrong, but you seem like a guy that is trying to act like he knows about this sort of thing, but really has no clue. I say this because you mention potash, which is never mentioned as a big pollutant like phosphates in lakes and nitrogen in drinking water. In fact, the DNR has mentioned pumping lakes full of potash to rid them of zebra mussels.

Also, this is a big pet peeve of mine, people who are uneducated on the topic trying to tell other people that are what they should be doing.

On a side note, could you post a picture of you shoreline buffer area? How many feet of buffer and what kind of deep, fibrous, rooting plants did you plant? If you truly cared about the health of the lake, you would know these things and educate yourself on farming practices as well, instead of assuming you are better than farmers because you reside on a lake.

[Jaspernuts]

Nice constructive post creepworm. Took a trip through Iowa last week. Lots of differences I noticed in their fields. They must have better soil in iowa. They don't tile everything and actually leave grass buffers in low areas for runoff! What a concept! I can't believe they don't plow that crap up. It might be costing them 1% of their profit. A Minnesota farmer would never stand for that.

[BobT]

Around here there seems to be a mad rush to pattern tile everything. I don't really understand it since the land has a moderate grade and there aren't that many places that really need it but this part time farmer is not too impressed with the implications.

I can understand it in problem areas where a tile might make it possible to plant an area more consistently. I have a couple places like that but have chosen to leave them alone and just work around them on the wetter springs. I still get a crop in those small pieces 7 out of 10 years.

Wouldn't it be better if farm tile was drained into a settling pond of sorts where the water might even be treated before it enters the drainage? It seems this could be feasible although I must admit the cost might be high. I don't know for sure. At the same time, couldn't all city storm sewers be handled in like manner?

[creepworm]

Took a trip through Iowa last week. Lots of differences I noticed in their fields. They must have better soil in iowa. They don't tile everything and actually leave grass buffers in low areas for runoff! What a concept! I can't believe they don't plow that crap up. It might be costing them 1% of their profit. A Minnesota farmer would never stand for that.

Nice constructive post Jaspernuts. Iowa is the most heavily tiled state in the nation, and second place is not even close and is not Minnesota. Though there does seem to be a few more buffer strips along drainage ditches in certain parts of Iowa.

[delcecchi]

Many newer commercial buildings and parking lots here in Rochester now have "rain gardens" which are pond like places for the runoff to go and filter into the ground instead of into storm sewers.

Fleet Farm even had vegetation in theirs for a year until they realized that it was difficult or impossible to maintain, or for some other reason they replaced it with large blocks of limestone.

[creepworm]

I will try this again, seeing no one could muster up any sort of an answer the first time.

Why are agricultural lands the only group involved in this law? Why are other landowners that have land abutting water not held to the same law?

[delcecchi]

I will try this again, seeing no one could muster up any sort of an answer the first time.

Why are agricultural lands the only group involved in this law? Why are other landowners that have land abutting water not held to the same law?

You would have to ask Mark Dayton that to get a real answer, but I will take a guess.

Land usage by homeowners in the lakeshore zone is already pretty strictly regulated. Stormwater runoff in cities and commercial areas is also gradually being regulated. Ag is pretty much the only unregulated source of run off water going into state waters, especially streams and rivers. It is probably the largest source of pollution in many rivers and streams.

I am sure you can find data from people like the MPCA as to the sources of pollution in various bodies of water. The poster child would be the Minnesota River. The Zumbro and Cedar here in SE would be on the list also.

I hear all these farmers saying tile is a good thing for runoff, pollution and flooding, but I have my doubts.

That's my take. I guess you can attack me if you want, but it was Dayton's idea.