White Bear Augmentation

[BoxMN]

Guys, maybe augmentation is an option without risk but I think I would want that to come out of the hydrologists mouth after the current ongoing study is done not out of an engineering firm, a chamber of commerce member or a politicians mouth before a study by scientists is complete.

I would agree mallard.

[Tom7227]

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/editorials/256768901.html

[mallardnwalleye]

Here is a great report on a large chunk of some of the pumping problems http://www.mprnews.org/story/2014/04/28/ground-level-our-legacy-of-contamination

A snippet of some numbers from the article -

illion gallons or more each year

These are the companies and governmental organizations that pump more than 5 million gallons a year of contaminated groundwater in the seven-county metro area. All figures are the annual 2008-2012 average except as noted.

Twin Cities Army Ammunition Plant : 2 billion gallons

3M Woodbury Disposal Site : 1.5 billion gallons

3M Cottage Grove plant : 951.3 million gallons

General Mills : 274 million gallons*

Naval Industrial Reserve Ordnance Plant Superfund Site : 265.4 million gallons

Flint Hills Resources-Pine Bend refinery : 116 million gallons

City of St. Louis Park : 102 million gallons

Anoka Municipal Regional Landfill : 95 million gallons*

Josilyn Manufacturing : 70 million gallons

St Paul Park Refining : 66.7 million gallons

FMC Superfund Site : 55.7 million gallons

BAE Systems : 55 million gallons

Waste Disposal Engineering Landfill - Andover : 43 million gallons

3M Oakdale dump site : 37.3 million gallons

Soo Line Railroad Company : 34 million gallons

New Brighton MacGillis & Gibbs Superfund Site : 24.2 million gallons

Marathon Petroleum : 21.5 million gallons

Andersen Corp. : 16.4 million gallons

Kurt Manufacturing : 15 million gallons

University of Minnesota : 14 million gallons

Baytown Township groundwater contamination site : 13.7 million gallons

Carver County parks : 12 million gallons

Whirlpool Corp. & Reynolds Metals : 11 million gallons

BNSF Railway : 9 million gallons

Brenntag Great Lakes : 5 million gallons

Nilfisk-Advance Inc : 5 million gallons

* indicates single year amount

Conservation preferred to re-injection

[Tom7227]

Link doesn't work.

[mallardnwalleye]

Link doesn't work.

hope this works. Looks like a lot of the water that gets pumped to mitigate the pollution is cleaned and used industrially for cooling but still gets dumped in the river. Maybe they could use the excess water for other industry or even golf courses and irrigation. It's a very well done and interesting article by Elizabeth Dunbar of MPR http://http//www.mprnews.org/story/2014/04/28/ground-level-our-legacy-of-contamination?from=hp

[mallardnwalleye]

Can't get the link to work Tom, please post it if you can.

[delcecchi]

Try these (or go to mprnews.org and it is right on the page)

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2014/04/28/ground-level-our-legacy-of-contamination?from=hp

http://blogs.mprnews.org/cities/2013/09/water-supplies-in-the-east-metro-by-the-numbers/

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2014/03/31/ground-level-beneath-the-surface-permits

The second link says that the twin cities metro is using about 300 million gallons of groundwater per day.

[mallardnwalleye]

Thanks Del!

There are many other good ground water articles in the link "Beneath The Surface A Special Ground Level Report." Within the article.

Interesting Stuff.

[jentz]

BOX>

Originally Posted By: jentz

Its a local problem created locally.

Others didnt have anything to do with a over populated lake wanting to use water till its gone.It is a local problem not the states.They made their bed now sleep in it!

Wow... I see we have been following the story... Or maybe I missed the sarcasm...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Box

Have you yet to read of the unregistered wells for irrigation? Water usage the DNR dont know of? Everyone wants water.that area has grown so fast.How many wells in that small area? How big are the wells bored for cities/towns?What size casing do they use?

Look at that and see how far the problem spreads,You'll find its a small area problem.It just happens to include WBL.

[john.wells]

While the lake is indeed low, here is data for almost 100 years of recording of the lake level. The current level is NOT unprecedented, and is currently on the up-swing! Link is from MnDNR: http://webapps5.dnr.state.mn.us/cgi-bin/lk_levels_dump.pl?format=csv&id=82016700

[MuskieFever]

….doesn't change the fact that the aquifer is too close and draining it.

[john.wells]

How is it explainable in the past when it dropped when the water use from aquifers was considerably less? I say let nature take its course.

[john.wells]

I will take it a step further. If the aquifer is "draining" the lake, the level would equalize if the situation was dire enough. We know this isn't the case. Those pump houses located around the lake were built back almost 100 years ago to try and raise the lake level to no avail. 100 years is pretty much recent history. Why can't anyone with any amount of common sense see that no matter what we do, nature always wins? Cripes, the data doesn't lie- there is absolutely no crisis here!!!!!!

[luckyworm]

Agree 100% john wells. Wbl water level is well within its historical range and it is on the upward trend. Mother Nature is a powerful force and does not need to be challenged. I once messed with Mother Nature and learned the hard way.

[Tom7227]

If you folks would spend the time to read the various links in this thread you would learn some of the facts.

The increase in population and thus the increase in the use of groundwater is most likely the cause. The area involved is huge, not just a few blocks around WBL. Nature can't solve a man made problem and it is going to take time and money to wean the communities off groundwater.

Additional studies are taking place and once that information is available then some sound choices can be made on how to deal with the problem.

Focus on the level of White Bear Lake is merely the poster child for what is going on.

[john.wells]

I HAVE read the facts. I don't just blindly throw my opinion out without having something to back it. People are incredibly reactionary and have severely short memories, and to think that we somehow are to blame is asinine. Sure, we as people have an effect, but during the lowest elevations nature was delivering us a pretty stout drought, coupled with longer open water and less snow pack. It ain't the first time it has happened, and won't be the last. ~"Nature can't solve a man made problem"~ It sure as Hades can! It is laughable to think we are somehow supreme in the governance of nature.....

[Tom7227]

http://www.startribune.com/local/east/274232161.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

[mallardnwalleye]

Tom,

The hyperbole of what happened in the decision is a little less than what the Strib article makes it out to be.

Tom, Here is my short and less "dramatic" Summary of the Summary Judgments for the White Bear Lake lawsuit.

1. Summary Judgment for the DNR was denied in its entirety.

2. The Summary Judgment for the WBLRA is denied in its entirety

3. The Partial Summary Judgment for White Bear Township is denied.

4. The Summary Judgment for the White Bear Lake Homeowners is denied in part and granted in part.

The part granted includes as to the question of whether the public trust doctrine affords a common law cause of action to protect the publics use rights to the water and lakebed of White Bear Lake.

The part denied is whether the DNR violated their fiduciary public right, which REMAINS A QUESTION OF FACT.

What I gather from this is

1. Public surface waters and the lake bed are both public trust assets.Lakes are in the "public trust" and the DNR is a trustee looking out for the "public good". The homeowners association can pursue a common law (lawsuit) under the "public trust doctrine",

2. All matters as to whether the lake is down because of excessive pumping

REMAINS A QUESTION OF FACT.

What do you all think?

[mallardnwalleye]

Some interesting stories and quotes about The White-Bear Lake

From Debra O'Connor of the Pioneer Press-Twincities.comhttp://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_26218206/how-fix-white-bear-lake-many-facts-still?source=pkg

Quote:

A big question, for example, is whether pumping from the aquifer is what's leading to the lower water levels in White Bear Lake.

"We don't know if this is true yet or not," said U.S. Geological Survey hydrologist Perry Jones. A previous USGS study indicated lake water flows into the aquifer. But, he said, it's not certain that groundwater pumping is a cause.

"This flow can be occurring naturally, even if no groundwater pumping was occurring," Jones said. "But removing water from the aquifer through pumping may increase the amount of water leaving the lake."

And factions disagree about whether funneling Mississippi River water into White Bear Lake -- a process called augmentation -- would work.

A USGS study looking directly at this question is underway. The full report isn't expected until 2016, although findings will be reported as they come out.

1. The lead on this and the original USGS study of White Bear Lake doesn't know for sure why White Bear Lake is lower than it should be.

2. The current study will be finished in 2016

Another quote from the same article:

Quote:

Factions focused on the water level in White Bear Lake are in court-ordered mediation right now. A group numbering 1,000 called the White Bear Lake Restoration Association has sued the state Department of Natural Resources, saying the lake level has dropped precipitously because the agency, which issues pumping permits, allowed too much water to be taken out of the aquifer.

The plans detailed in the Met Council report for piping in Mississippi River water to area residents and businesses would require much more time and money than just filling up the lake with that water. So augmentation is the logical thing to try first, said restoration association chair Greg McNeely.

“They broke our lake. They should fix it,” he said.

1. The White Bear Lake Restoration Association has sued the MN DNR over low water levels due to over permitted pumping from the aquifer.

2. It appears the White Bear Lake Restoration Association would like to raise the water in White Bear Lake not by restoring the aquifer but by augmenting the lake with river water.

[mallardnwalleye]

http://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/news...mment-areaQuote ]http://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/news...ment-areaQuote

Quote from September 10,2014 White Bear Press Article by Debra Neutkens linked above

Unless the case settles out of court, a trial is scheduled for March 2015. Word has it the judge has cleared three weeks on her calendar for the case.

“Perhaps this decision will motivate the DNR or the plaintiffs to settle,” Jensen said.

White Bear Township Clerk/Treasurer Bill Short said a mediation remedy is still alive. “The mediator (retired state Supreme Court Justice James Gilbert) is circulating a proposed settlement agreement to the parties. It was agreed to in concept at the end of the last mediation session.”

End of Quote

Will the management of White Bear Lake be settled in public or in private?

Will we the public know of this settlement?

Will the decision on what to do/or not to do about White Bear Lake be before the 2016 end date of the USGS Study?

Will the Scientists have a say?

What do you all think?

[delcecchi]

Private

Yes

No

Yes

[mallardnwalleye]

http://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/news...mment-areaQuote ]http://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/news...ment-areaQuote

Quote from September 10,2014 White Bear Press Article by Debra Neutkens linked above

Unless the case settles out of court, a trial is scheduled for March 2015. Word has it the judge has cleared three weeks on her calendar for the case.

“Perhaps this decision will motivate the DNR or the plaintiffs to settle,” Jensen said.

White Bear Township Clerk/Treasurer Bill Short said a mediation remedy is still alive. “The mediator (retired state Supreme Court Justice James Gilbert) is circulating a proposed settlement agreement to the parties. It was agreed to in concept at the end of the last mediation session.”

End of Quote

Will the management of White Bear Lake be settled in public or in private?

Will we the public know of this settlement?

Will the decision on what to do/or not to do about White Bear Lake be before the 2016 end date of the USGS Study?

Will the Scientists have a say?

What do you all think?

[mallardnwalleye]

Private

Yes

No

Yes

Del,

Educated guess or do you know something?

[Tom7227]

Whatever the steps are that will deal with the problem the cost of those steps and who will pay are the great unanswered questions. There are a multitude of local and state agencies involved and the dozens if not hundreds of elected officials that will be making those decisions. I think it will take a long time for things to be worked out simply because there are too many involved. The only thing that could cut down the time would be decisive action by the State. But then you still have way to many politicians from a lot of different areas who will have to make those things happen. I don't hold out a lot of hope for the solutions to be determined and steps taken within 3+ years.

[delcecchi]

Del,

Educated guess or do you know something?

Guess. Not sure about educated part.

Proposed settlement agreement circulating. I don't think they want some judge dictating the solution, but maybe that is what is needed, like when Rudy Perpich got Wisconsin to sue Minnesota over the sewage overflows polluting the Mississippi after the legislature wouldn't put up the money to separate the sanitary from the storm sewers in Minneapolis.

They can't hide the terms since it will be implemented out there for everyone to see.

They will probably use the study to delay the plan and pray for rain, lots of rain.

[mallardnwalleye]

Del and Tom thanks for your thoughts.

If I look at the quote below it seems this may be settled out of court and out of the scientist's/public's eye or input as many settlements can include a "gag order".

I think the lawsuit has merit but if it preempts the USGS 2016 study's completion date or prescribes a remedy/solution that is not in agreement with the scientists findings and/or the public's interest, a major injustice will have occurred.

Quote:

White Bear Township Clerk/Treasurer Bill Short said a mediation remedy is still alive. “The mediator (retired state Supreme Court Justice James Gilbert) is circulating a proposed settlement agreement to the parties. It was agreed to in concept at the end of the last mediation session.”

Dates

2016- completion date USGS Study.

Mar 2015- Trial date for lawsuit White Bear Lake Restoration Association v DNR MN

Any decisions on a solution before this would be questionable.

I say-

Let the scientists decide what the problem is and the best solution to it.

Let the engineers design it.

Let the politicians figure out who pays for it.

Let the contractors build it.

Let the scientists monitor it.

It feels like we might be starting to skip a step here.

That's my opinion. What do you think?

[john.wells]

It is definitely in the order of "ready, fire, AIM!"

[largemarge]

By the time they figure this out...ma nature will have taken her own course of action. it'll be fine in time. maybe not this generation. I say this but do not live on the lake or draw from the supply of water, I fish the lake periodically. My perspective is to leave it alone.

[mallardnwalleye]

By the time they figure this out...ma nature will have taken her own course of action. it'll be fine in time. maybe not this generation. I say this but do not live on the lake or draw from the supply of water, I fish the lake periodically. My perspective is to leave it alone.

Thanks for the input and don't take this wrong but....

You may be right.....but you may be wrong?

I will wait for the scientists to tell us and with what degree of certainty they have.

[mallardnwalleye]

http://www.presspubs.com/white_bear/news/article_a209db7e-4e7a-11e4-8804-9f829ae266fd.html

My favorite quote of the article

Quote:

The group is working on augmentation almost daily, said Shannon Whitaker, a WBLRA board member and lake homeowner. “Our research says augmentation could work,” and at a cost far different than Metropolitan Council estimates.

Independent work by the WBLRA puts a price tag of $5 to $10 million, with filtration, to supplement the lake. Its plan is to run a pipeline 2.5 miles from Vadnais Lake (which gets water from the Mississippi) to White Bear Lake.

Whitaker feels previous figures, which provide estimates 10 times that amount, may have been “politically motivated to scare people off. We also show a much different effect for lake augmentation with 40 percent (water) retention.”

1. A Met Council Study estimates a 2.5 mile pipeline cost at $50 million.

2. In the above quote the WBLRA estimates a 2.5 mile pipeline cost at $5-10 million

3. I wonder which number is the closest to being correct ?