How long should we expect a company to support a product?

[waskawood]

The Kids bought me a Marcum camera a few years back. I do not remember exactly when. The camera housing must have a very slight leak as it fogs over now so I emailed Marcum about service. I was extremely disappointed that after only 4 years they have elected not to support their products. Am I wrong in my thinking?

It is disappointing to hear that you are experiencing difficulties with your VS460/VS560 viewing system.

As you may know, these systems have been out of production for over 4 years and we are no longer able to provide service or offer replacement parts of any kind for these systems. These systems were manufactured when Marcum was under original ownership. My company, Versa Electronics, was not involved in any way with the manufacture or sales of 460/560 underwater viewing systems. We do not have any knowledge of any other companies or individuals who are able to perform any repairs or have any parts for these systems.

Our VS825 and 625sd systems come with a camera panner, a device that grips the camera cable and allows you to rotate the camera 360 degrees

Thanks

Customer Service

Marcum Technology

3943 Quebec Ave N

Minneapolis [New Hope], MN 55427

[hawgchaser]

You're not wrong according to my viewpoint, but I get the impression many purchasers/users accept it and take it in stride. I've purchased my last Lowrance for the same reasons you mention, and will use a cheap flasher or my Vexilar in the boat before I will support the built-in obsolescence that some of the manufacturers force upon us. If replacement sales don't come, we'll see a change in company policy or "new" companies competing for the repair rather than replace niche market.

[PurpleFloyd]

With the modern electronics market and pretty much every other industry I can understand their point of view.

That product was made by the company prior to an ownership change and they are no longer carrying replacement parts fr those units. We have to understand that these parts are largely made overseas and there is a great amount of pressure to keep prices low so the companies order only the number of parts they need to make the units they plan to make plus possibly a certain number to have available for replacements. Once a unit is discontinued, once all the replacement pieces are gone, unless it is a 350 chevy type item there just isn't the demand to justify doing additional production runs of those parts and unless the parts carried over to the new models and they have a current use. There is a cost to setting up production for every part that goes into your camera and the cost to gear up for thousands spreads that cost out. Doing it for tens makes each part more expensive than most consumers would be willing to spend and then they would be on the forums bashing the company for gouging them on a 10 dollar part.

Possibly the best solution is to keep your eyes open for a used or broken unit that you can salvage the parts from and use that to repair it.

[hawgchaser]

Not personal criticism intended at all PF, but I'm not buying the cost/logistical "dilemma" put out by the manufacturers. I own a 35 year old Ford tractor (made in Japan) that was only marketed in the U.S. for 3 years. Ford became Ford-New Holland and eventually just New Holland and I can still get parts. When you talk "parts" in modern electronics we're not talking parts as in replacing a tube, we're talking modules that are (largely) mass produced by computerized equipment overseas at minimal expense. What human labor is involved is minimal and cheap. I contend that the cost/logistical problems in repairing units put forth by manufacturers are both intentional and profitable. If consumers reduce the profit under the current system, the system will be changed or challenged by another company.

[waskawood]

Purple, I completely understand your point of view. However, we are not talking about broken electronics or parts that need to be replaced. We are talking about a very small leak in the housing. Large enough to cause it to fog up not fill with water. My hopes were they had a service department that was competent enough to service and reseal the housing. That is where my disappointment comes in. No service after the sale!!! It appears this new company bought Marcum and can't/won't support the previous owners product.

[PurpleFloyd]

Purple, I completely understand your point of view. However, we are not talking about broken electronics or parts that need to be replaced. We are talking about a very small leak in the housing. Large enough to cause it to fog up not fill with water. My hopes were they had a service department that was competent enough to service and reseal the housing. That is where my disappointment comes in. No service after the sale!!! It appears this new company bought Marcum and can't/won't support the previous owners product.

Maybe I misunderstood you but what is causing the leak? Can you just tighten a screw or something?

[BobT]

Not personal criticism intended at all PF, but I'm not buying the cost/logistical "dilemma" put out by the manufacturers. I own a 35 year old Ford tractor (made in Japan) that was only marketed in the U.S. for 3 years. Ford became Ford-New Holland and eventually just New Holland and I can still get parts.

This is probably because there is still enough demand for the parts to justify the cost of keeping them available. Another possibility is the manufacturer’s business strategy puts more focus on aftermarket parts and service. Maintaining an inventory of parts and training to provide service comes with a cost. A company must always weigh that cost against the ROI to decide when to cut the string.

As a consumer the best the OP can do is let them know he is not satisfied and then decide if he needs to find another supplier for his future equipment purchases. It sucks but the company that manufactured the equipment is no longer in business and the new owner decided the cost of supporting the product line couldn’t be justified on the bottom line.

Did they make the right decision? Our unhappiness could translate into a drop in sales as we share our experiences. Will it be enough to hurt them? That remains to be seen. They don’t have any more obligation to provide aftermarket parts and service than we do to provide future business.

How long should we expect a company to support a product?

The answer to this question is highly dependent on the individual and conveyed to the manufacturers from our wallet.

[Whoaru99]

Commodity electronics? Uh, about as long as the warranty lasts.

[Ufatz]

If I want a tail light lens for my 1965 M-Benz 230SL I just call and order it. If I want a sunshade clip (small piece of plastic) for my 1987 560SEL I just call and order it. Are these parts cheap? No. But they are still available right from the company. THAT is standing behind your product.

But I understand the conversation going on here. Try to get Apple to help if your laptop is more than 6-7 years old.

[BLACKJACK]

Commodity electronics? Uh, about as long as the warranty lasts.

+1

[DTro]

are we really comparing autos that cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars to a couple hundred dollar consumer item?

As someone else mentioned, only expect it to last as long as the warranty and be greatful for anything more than that.

We live in a disposable society and companies are giving us what we want. Cheap and easy.

I do however feel that in a case like this, Marcum could offer a nice discount on a new product as s gesture of goodwill.

[hawgchaser]

are we really comparing autos that cost thousands or tens of thousands of dollars to a couple hundred dollar consumer item?

A few/several hundred for an ice flasher; a few thousand for marine/fishing electronics; a thousand or so for a trolling motor....Rolling over the outlay of cash every 4 years to replace my fishing toys soon rivals the cost of a vehicle.

I'm often awed by how much (mostly) men spend on their toys and seriously doubt many households could financially support that kind of spending if husband and wife spent equally on enjoyment. Equity between my wife and I is one of my markers for making/justifying purchases for my personal enjoyment. So, yeah! I'm going to make a collective comparison between the industries. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. What I do believe is that those who expect quality and service represent a substantial niche of the toys market and can affect the marketer's willingness to extend the support life of their respective products. Whether the marketers respond or not is not my choice. I have only a responsibility to walk in the light my own beliefs & convictions.

[BoxMN]

I am with you hawgchaser, and even down to the locator brand you mentioned up top. I want to continue my 25+ run with them, but just can't... They don't need to keep upgrading units firmware for years and years, but it should be possible to get it working as it was when new, since it is not depending upon a separate OS or other engineering - just keep the knowhow on how to fix things for longer than they are. Take Marcum and Vexlilar for example, or even Minnkota - you can still get old stuff fixed.

[CaptainMusky]

Take Marcum and Vexlilar for example, or even Minnkota - you can still get old stuff fixed.

I believe this whole post was started by someone who stated his Marcum camera will NOT be fixed.

[BobT]

The problem.....? We keep buying their products.

[hawgchaser]

My choice is to take one less member of the "we" who continue buying their products and to move him to the camp of "we" who refuse to buy products with such a limited life/service expectancy. There are a host of companies that have overestimated their customers loyalty when they over-priced or under serviced or reduced quality without reducing cost. The American auto industry of the 70s and 80s is the most glaring example that comes to mind. The only thing I would suggest to any others joining the "we" defection is to communicate the decision and reasons to the companies being rejected. As a business owner, I appreciated feedback from my consumers (good or bad) as an opportunity to correct and improve my product/services. Lowrance will know that I've been loyal to them since my purchase of the Eagle Silent Sixty, and that a new "suitor" who meets my expectations can expect the same degree of loyalty.

[John Mickish]

On cheap consumer electronics I figure it's repairable as long as its in production. Once things get out of production, it makes no sense for either the manufacturer or consumer to spend the money on it. Should you pay a couple hours labor to fix something that is worth $200? IMO that is just bad money management.

Now don't confuse how long something should last with how long it should be serviceable because the two are not the same.

[CJH]

^^^^^ Spot On.

[hawgchaser]

Should you pay a couple hours labor to fix something that is worth $200?

I'm not sure where the $200 figure came from. While certainly not the most expensive unit, the Lowrance HDS-5 Gen2 I got last May was $649. I downloaded 2 software updates within the first two months & such updates were available for downloading last Nov. If your wife bought you a unit such a mine early to give to you last Christmas, you can no longer access the software updates. There's a new HDS-5 Gen2-touch that's made my unit obsolete. Evidently the cost of providing the downloadable updates was prohibitive. Throw out your unused (Christmas)present and modernize. Goodbye again, Lowrance!

[Iron Cowboy]

This is exactly why I wont buy all this expensive, best ever-crapp I compare it to the sunglasses to see in the water with, This summer I bought a cheapo pair for $20 and my brother in law bought some for $300. I put both on and sure as helll couldnt find a $280 difference, and when I lose mine to some unforseen incident, oh well. I mean dam grandpa caughtplenty of fish without any gadgets, with a cheap unit I am light years ahead in advantage of knowing whats below me. and when it goes bad toss it. Just get the cheapest thing that does the basics instead of trying to get something better than your buddy's new unit and when it goes bad theres no buyers remorse...It might not be as fun shopping this way but id rather fish than shop and I like the extra money I saved in my pocket.

[delcecchi]

I'm not sure where the $200 figure came from. While certainly not the most expensive unit, the Lowrance HDS-5 Gen2 I got last May was $649. I downloaded 2 software updates within the first two months & such updates were available for downloading last Nov. If your wife bought you a unit such a mine early to give to you last Christmas, you can no longer access the software updates. There's a new HDS-5 Gen2-touch that's made my unit obsolete. Evidently the cost of providing the downloadable updates was prohibitive. Throw out your unused (Christmas)present and modernize. Goodbye again, Lowrance!

[Eric Wettschreck]

How long should we expect a company to support a product? As long as their name is on it. As for me, the things I have built have my name on them and I back them until I'm dead.

How long, in reality will a company support a product? That all depends on the 3 zillion dynamics involved. Some will for a lifetime, others will for a couple months. Sad but true. In the electronics world its a dump shoot. Buyer beware and do some homework.

[Whoaru99]

I put both on and sure as helll couldnt find a $280 difference

What's worth it to you may or may not be worth it to someone else.

I've spent a fair bit of money on stereo gear but others are perfectly happy with a boom box.

[hawgchaser]

I stand corrected, Del, and apologize to the readers. The updates have always been listed in the product description and it now says "No software available". When I went to the updates page, I skipped over the images and went to the product list which does not list my unit.

I retract my last "goodbye Lowrance" but hold fast to my original. $649 is not cheap electronics by my standards, but the 10in. version of mine is almost $2K. If that's cheap electronics, it's obvious my brand of brew is several shelves lower than some people's brand. The OP's and my quarrel is with the arbitrary support period. In the case of Lowrance, it's 5 yr.- whether it a $2C unit or a $2K unit.

Again, I apologize for the misinformation.

[muskE]

From the manufacturer's perspective it really gets hard to keep techs trained on legacy equipment. The older a product gets the more turnover they have, the more upgrades consumers make, and, in turn, the fewer touches their support personnel get on older products. Rust sets in quick when you don't use a certain skill and it's more cost effective to sunset certain products in favor of current offerings.

This comes at a high cost of diminishing returns that the consumer would eventually have to pay for. Sure we've all been on the short side of it of a discontinued model but it boils down to customer service. Like an earlier poster said it would be a nice gesture for Marcum to step up and offer some sort of loyalty discount.

[PurpleFloyd]

I stand corrected, Del, and apologize to the readers. The updates have always been listed in the product description and it now says "No software available". When I went to the updates page, I skipped over the images and went to the product list which does not list my unit.

I retract my last "goodbye Lowrance" but hold fast to my original. $649 is not cheap electronics by my standards, but the 10in. version of mine is almost $2K. If that's cheap electronics, it's obvious my brand of brew is several shelves lower than some people's brand. The OP's and my quarrel is with the arbitrary support period. In the case of Lowrance, it's 5 yr.- whether it a $2C unit or a $2K unit.

Again, I apologize for the misinformation.

Part of what you are seeing is due the the changes in technology too. Products like Vexilar flashers that have been time proven units which have not gone through changes in design or internal parts can and will be able to support these items as long as they are still making the units with those parts. It looks like the OP may have bowed out of the conversation but when I read his post, it appeared to me like he may have needed a new screen, a new gasket or housing. Not sure if that was the case but if it was, then he was asking them to fix what is termed an obsolete unit and if you have an obsolete unit that had parts specifically designed for it and not for any other item for sale in the world at the current time, then there is a very low incentive to carry replacement parts for it unless there was a large enough volume of them sold to justify the inventory. Once production halted and NOS supplies are depleted, I really would not expect to have more made as long as the warranty period has expired for the last units made.

[Down Deep]

I've had the same problems with MinnKota. Had a board fail on a 6 year old unit and no replacement parts were available. I found a cheap used motor on the CeeList and robbed the board from that unit to get it working again. This was several years ago and they still manufacture the Power Drive units, but for some reason parts for my motor were discontinued.

All electronics are the same. Technology is advancing so fast that the proverbial wheel is reinvented almost on a annual basis. Source manufactures are here today and gone tomorrow. No wonder repair parts are impossible to get. It seems to me that it should be easy to have software updates available for years.

We could all go back to using a good map and really learn a lake by trial and error. No obsolesces then.

[Surface Tension]

Years ago most electronic companies had techs for service & repair.

A good trouble shooter with the schematics, parts/components and a soldering iron.

A long time ago I remember H-Bird had a flat rate of $25 for repairs. Interphase had a $75 flat rate charge.

You send in your unit and it might be a month or more before you got it back.

Today if your out of warranty and model discontinued you'll have to look else where to get it fixed. Fish-Lectronics in Nisswa comes to mind.

I have to agree it isn't reassuring to drop $1000 on new sounder knowing that when the warranty is up chances are your going to have a hard time getting it serviced when the time comes.

If it were my leaky camera I'd be looking on the web for someone that has the same problem and fixed it themselves. If no go there I'd go in cold and tear into.

[Ufatz]

I agree with Dtro that my comparison might have been a bit skewed, but my point really was to show there are SOME company's the DO not only stand behind their stuff but can provide parts and service too. Sure, a Benz is not a fish finder and I understand that electronics models are as fleeting as the breeze and as changeable as the weather, but they might perhaps be urged to do a little better. And I offered the case of Apple: if your laptop is more than five years old, and many of us have them because they are such great machines, don't count on updates or on-line service or warranty of any kind. And many of these are $10000 ++ when you buy them. I think Apple lets it's loyal customers down.

The entire electronics industry is in such a frenzy to produce new products and gobble consumer dollars that it does not CARE much what you think or what you do with your unit-it probably cost them $4.00 per unit.

[delcecchi]

Sure, put a z-series mainframe in your boat. IBM will fix it until heck freezes over. I remember how they were pulling parts out of old machines to fix the ancient FAA systems.

Military has huge problem with this kind of stuff. There is at least one company making a living making IC's from the 60's. Need some RTL?

But you pay for it. Fishing electronics is more like the TV. I bought a Samsung "smart tv" and had to add a roku to get amazon to stream. They never did update the software for that.