Tullibee & walleye parasitic worms?

[fisherman-andy]

Well the tullibees we caught on LOTW have them yellowish white tape worms on the filet meat. Makes one think twice about cooking or smoking them. I guess their safe to consume if fully cooked?

Also found tape worms in the stomach cavity of the walleyes but not sure of the meat.

I assume this is common on LOTW? Or not?

[Skhots]

Sorry, off topic here. I don't eat fish but we caught a 16" sauger with what looked like fungal growth on a fin. I thought it was a leaf on it for some reason and peeled it back to find raw flesh. I should have disposed of it but I didn't think of it until I had thrown it back in.

[mwal]

Tape worms are in most walleyes. If you ever have them die in a live well the worms will leave the host. Those white pieces floating in the live well are the tape worms bailing ship. Thats why they warn to never eat raw walleye. I do not remember which reporter Schara or Anderson tried it in Boundary waters and they whole party got them. Also the worms I have seen in whitefish I caught in the Nipigon River in Canada. I discarded the fillets.

Mwal

[Neiko]

Is it possible you caught a tagged fish that had the tag ripped off?

[CANOPY SAM]

Parasites are quite common in all fish. But that doesn't mean you can't eat them, or have to "discard" them simply because they don't look right. What you saw on the walleye fin was likely a fungal infection, and again it's quite common in Lake of the Woods and Rainy River fish....nothing to be concerned with consumption wise.

Thorough cooking of the fillets will kill any and all adult parasites and/or their eggs.

One thing you should be careful of, while filleting your fish, don't put your fingers to your mouth. It only takes a single parasitic worm egg (microscopic), or "gravid proglottid" (reproductive segment of an adult) to result in a full blown infection.

If you've observed a parasitic worm in the fish you're cleaning be sure to carefully clean your knives, cutting board, counter tops, etc., with hot, soapy water and perhaps even a weak solution of bleach water (10% dilution of bleach to water should be plenty strong enough), and do the same with your hands.

Then just thoroughly clean your fish fillets and cook completely, or freeze for a few days prior to cooking and you'll be just fine.

Ducks and geese, deer and bear are also notorious carriers of parasites of all types, shapes and sizes. They are a part of the natural world. No need to get all worked up about them. Just use common sense, good cleansing practices, and completely cook your wild game.

[Ballyhoo]

We have eaten plenty of perch that had little worms in the fillets. If cooked properly they do not affect anything, just add more protein

As far as the growth on the fins or on the scales, I asked a fisheries person about that and he said it was a fish's equivelant to a cold.

[Red Miller]

Great job CanopySam. Really well explained. Thanks for taking the time to offer that.

[Skhots]

Is it possible you caught a tagged fish that had the tag ripped off?

Hmm... maybe. it looked sickly and not so brown, more like a light gray. And the tags are usually on the fins itself not on the body right?

[vman11]

I've caught a few fish on LOTW with the "cancerous" looking things on their fins and scales. Here is a sauger from earlier in the ice season.

I showed a fisheries buddy that works for the DNR who thinks it could be a fungus, but wasn't sure.

[White-tips]

MN DNR Common Fish Diseases

Common Dermal Sarcoma. Sometimes it goes into the fillet sometimes not. Most often seen in colder water conditions. Lots of this seen over the years on fish in the Rainy in the spring.

[kfk]

It's common to run across one of them now and then.

[FowlSki]

We kept about 15 tullies last weekend and all but a few had worms. First time I've ran in to that on LOTW. Unless you are okay eating worms I'd suggest releasing the tullies.

[fivebucks]

We kept over a dozen tullies over New Years. I keep them frozen until they go on the smoker and then I make sure to get up the heat high enough.

From the MN Conservation Volunteer (by MN DNR)

Effects on Fish: A broad fish tapeworm does not weaken a fish or stunt its growth. If a healthy northern pike, for example, eats an infected fish, the plerocercoid will migrate into the pike's flesh and encyst again. The plerocercoid will not develop into an adult tapeworm until a mammal eats the fish.

Effects on People: Warning—if you eat an infected fish, tapeworms are likely to grow in your digestive tract. They are not only gross, but they also can cause a nutrient deficiency, especially a vitamin deficiency. People have died after getting this type of tapeworm from sources such as inadequately cooked or cold-processed pickled northern pike.

To avoid this tapeworm, only eat thoroughly cooked fish. Cold-process pickling does not kill tapeworms or cysts! If you pickle fish, be sure to use heat in the processing.

[magic_minnow]

what if you toss your fish outside and they freeze on the ice. does this kill the worms?

[DrJuice1980]

So when smoking, what temp do they need to get up to?

Also, how do most of you "cook" pickled northern?

[CANOPY SAM]

It will if you keep them frozen for several days at or below -20 degrees F. But I'd still make sure to cook them completely thru before eating them. I wouldn't completely trust freezing alone to eliminate parasites or bacteria.

One thing to keep in mind with smoked whitefish, or tulibee as many are referring too, prior to smoking fish properly they should most often be "brined" or soaked in a fair to weak salt/seasoning solution for about 18-24 hours. This brining step, in and of itself, should kill off most, if not all parasites and their ova (eggs) before the fillets or whole fish are smoked.

Few wild critters, even parasites, can survive in a high salinity (salt) environment. Most brine recipes call for adding salt to the brine until you can float an egg. That's REALLY salty, but that's been done for a reason for thousands of years. Not only does it impart a nice flavor to your smoked fish (once the fillets are rinsed off prior to smoking), but it's a large part of the preservation and decontamination process.

Properly brined/smoked/dried fish, or any meat for that matter, should last in your refrigerator for several weeks before it begins to spoil, and it should almost never form mold or fungus on it over time. The salt is what preserves the meat (and kills microscopic critters).

[magic_minnow]

awesome info! Thanks!

[DrJuice1980]

Thanks Sam, thats what I always thought.

So it would be the same for pickling as well with the pickling salt I would assume?

Anybody pickle Tullies? Is it similar to herring?

[CANOPY SAM]

You know what Dr.J, I can't really speak toward pickling fish. I don't do it, so I really don't know a lot about it. I love pickled herring, and I've had a few pickled pike in my day that I really enjoyed, but I just prefer smoked fish vs. pickled fish.

I think there was something posted here earlier about pickled fish, and the process not effectively eliminating all parasites and bacteria?

Yep, just looked back at earlier posts. The last line in the third post from the top of this page says something like "Cold pickling doesn't kill parasites....heat pickling methods (?) are recommended." Sounds like that comes from a reputable source.

We pickle cucumbers and onions. I'll smoke my whitefish.

[FowlSki]

Pickled and smoked parasites are the best!!

If you don't kill em, no big deal. Free diet!

[laker1]

I've caught a few fish on LOTW with the "cancerous" looking things on their fins and scales. Here is a sauger from earlier in the ice season.

I showed a fisheries buddy that works for the DNR who thinks it could be a fungus, but wasn't sure.

That is not a fungus.

[fivebucks]

Good info Canopy. I thought the heat required to kill parasites was 150 so I searched and found this from an AK University of Fairbanks extension site:

For hot smoked product (see section on smoking) the internal temperature of the fish is raised to at least 160°F for bacterial reduction, which exceeds the 150°F required to kill parasites.

[vman11]

laker1 - What is it?

[jerkbait]

Thanks Sam, thats what I always thought.

So it would be the same for pickling as well with the pickling salt I would assume?

Anybody pickle Tullies? Is it similar to herring?

Yes I pickled some a couple of years ago. Were good similar to herring. Only thing I found is you needed to eat them up within a month or so or the meat started to get mushy. Would like to try it again.

[LABS4ME]

Bining is not sufficient to ensure that all parasites are killed. It is done through deep freeze or heat. All the information can be found on line. Everyone can make their own decisions on how to prepare their catch prior to eating, but I will alwyas go by what science shows to be safe...

Smoking fish to 150-160 will kill off all parasites. If you are cold smoking again it is best to freeze fish prior to smoking. Brining will not take care of the parasites:

Cold Smoking and Salting

Cold smoking is a process of preparing fish in which the fish is exposed to smoke and room-type temperatures (between 65˚-80˚F/18˚-27˚C) for a long period of time (typically 12-24 hours). This process is not sufficient to kill potentially unwanted parasites, including the larvae of ringworms or tapeworms. Heats of at least 140˚F/60˚C are needed to accomplish this task, and the innermost core of the fish must reach this temperature for at least one full minute.

Salting is sometimes combined with cold-smoking in the preparation of cold-smoked fish, and once again, this method is typically inadequate to assure safety. Most salt brines are not sufficiently concentrated, or used for a long enough period of time, to kill all larvae. In scientific studies, brine concentrations as high as 4.3% were insufficient to kill unwanted parasites after five weeks of marinating. At this salt concentration, seven full weeks of marinating were required. Other studies have show that a doubled concentration of 8-9% can lower this marinating time to 5-6 weeks at best. Since many cold-smoked, salted fish (including salmon) are not exposed to adequate salt concentrations for a sufficient period of time, they cannot be considered safe for consumption.

Freezing

Freezing is one of the most effective ways to kill unwanted parasites in raw fish. The Food and Drug Administration's Fish and Fishery Products Hazards and Controls Guide sets forth a temperature range of -31˚F/-35˚C for 15 hours or

-4˚F/-20˚C for 7 days as an effective way to kill potential parasites. Food industry standards for frozen fish take these safety issues into account, and many commercially sold fish have been previously frozen, intact and prior to any processing, at temperatures that meet FDA guidelines

from the U of M on pickling fish:

Pickled fish

By Deb Botzek-Linn, University of Minnesota Extension educator

Reviewed 2010 by Deb Botzek-Linn, University of Minnesota Extension educator. Reviewed by Suzanne Driessen, 2012.

In Minnesota, we can enjoy pickled northern, sucker, trout, and salmon among others.

The first step in producing safe, home-pickled fish is to kill the larvae of the broad fish tapeworm, a parasite that can infect humans. It is most common in northern pike, but is found in several Minnesota fish.

There are two schools of thought on how to destroy the tapeworm. With the first, simmer fish in pickling brine to 140° F. This does not affect the flavor or the texture of pickled fish. Or, if you are pickling raw fish, freeze it at 0° F for 48 hours prior to brining. Either method kills the parasite.

When pickling fish, select only fresh, high-quality fish. Use 5% white vinegar; avoid hard water, as it causes off-color and flavors; and use canning or pickling salt along with fresh, whole spices.

Give this pickled fish recipe a try:

1.Soak fish in a weak brine of 1 cup of pickling salt to 1 gallon water for one hour. Drain.

2.Soak fish in a heavy brine of 2 ½ cups of salt to 1 gallon of water for 12 hours in the refrigerator. Use only glass, enamel or food-grade plastic container for brining.

3.Rinse the fish in cold water. Cut into serving-size pieces.

4.Combine the following ingredients in a large kettle: ¼ oz bay leaves, 2 T allspice, 2 T mustard seed, 1 T whole cloves, 1 T pepper, 1-2 T hot, ground dried pepper, ½ lb sliced onion, 2 qt distilled vinegar and 5 c water. This makes enough brine for 10 pounds of fish.

5.Bring to a boil; add fish, and simmer for 10 minutes until fish is easily pierced with a fork. Do not overcook.

6.Remove fish from liquid and place in single layer in shallow pan and refrigerate.

7.Pack cold fish in clean glass jars. Add fresh onion slices, lemon and bay leaves if desired.

8.Strain the vinegar solution, bring to a boil, and pour into jars to cover fish. Seal immediately.

Pickled fish must be stored in the refrigerator and used within 6 weeks

Good Luck!

Ken

[walleyenerd]

Lots of info in this thread, some accurate, some not so much. Parasites are really interesting critters that have incredible life cycles.

The worms you see in the flesh of whitefish and tulibees are an intermediate life stage for a tapeworm (Triaenophorus) that has northern pike as their final host. Because human physiology is very different from a pike you are not going to get a tapeworm from eating a tulibee. The broad fish tapeworm (Diphyllobothrium) is very different. This critter has mammals as a final host (raccoons, bears and humans), so you will end up with a new friend if you happen to eat a fish infected with those guys. You can get a broadfish tapeworm from eating a variety of predator fish, such as pike, walleye, lake trout and perch. Bottom line, don't eat under cooked fish.

The adult tapeworms the OP found in the gut of a walleye he was cleaning aren't going to hurt you. The eggs, and the resulting larval stages, have to go through several intermediate hosts, none of which are closely related to mammals, before they produce another adult tapeworm.

The pictures of the sauger show either a dermal sarcoma, or Lymphocystis. Both of these are viral diseases which infect skin cells. When you remove the skin, the infected cells are removed, and there is no risk to humans. If the muscle under the skin shows abnormalities, then I would discard the fillet, as the fish likely has developed some type of tumor.

Check this out for more information: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/janfeb06/raw.html .

[vman11]

Lots of info in this thread, some accurate, some not so much. Parasites are really interesting critters that have incredible life cycles.

The worms you see in the flesh of whitefish and tulibees are an intermediate life stage for a tapeworm (Triaenophorus) that has northern pike as their final host. Because human physiology is very different from a pike you are not going to get a tapeworm from eating a tulibee. The broad fish tapeworm (Diphyllobothrium) is very different. This critter has mammals as a final host (raccoons, bears and humans), so you will end up with a new friend if you happen to eat a fish infected with those guys. You can get a broadfish tapeworm from eating a variety of predator fish, such as pike, walleye, lake trout and perch. Bottom line, don't eat under cooked fish.

The adult tapeworms the OP found in the gut of a walleye he was cleaning aren't going to hurt you. The eggs, and the resulting larval stages, have to go through several intermediate hosts, none of which are closely related to mammals, before they produce another adult tapeworm.

The pictures of the sauger show either a dermal sarcoma, or Lymphocystis. Both of these are viral diseases which infect skin cells. When you remove the skin, the infected cells are removed, and there is no risk to humans. If the muscle under the skin shows abnormalities, then I would discard the fillet, as the fish likely has developed some type of tumor.

Check this out for more information: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/janfeb06/raw.html .

Solid info walleyenerd. Should answer a lot of the questions asked in this thread.