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Manziel Debate


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DrJuice1980

So a 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd for only moving up a few spots? Thats crazy talk. Regardless of what year pick we give up thats just WAY TOO MUCH! Crazy talk. I get it that certain woman can be captivated by this guy but all you guys? To this extent? Wow. Get your heads screwed back on fellas.

Every year this happens, talk talk talk about the QB position and most of the time only a couple are selected first round and when its the other way and multiple QBs are taken 1st round then theres plenty of busts. Give up the farm for Andrew Luck, sure. Manziel? no way in he!!

The next person that walks by, ask them to pinch you cause you all need to wake up.

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I hate to tell you, but to move up 3 spots, if we can get by with only giving up our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd this year, it would be a steal. I was under valuing it a ton, by adding next years second, rather then this years.

More then likely it will be more like this years 1st, and next years 1st, plus a second and third. But that is way to much. You can figure in the top 10, 3 positions is worth this years 1-3 picks. More if you want to go more then 3 spots.

Draft chart

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DrJuice1980

Crazy talk out of your arse man. That would be too much, way too much. Are we really talking like this Manziel kid is that legit? Andrew Luck legit? Its the rubes that love him because he's a rube.

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FISHINGURU

I personally wouldn't trade up to get anyone in this draft, If anything I would trade down and stock pile for the future.

The cost of picks to move up would be worth it IF your guy ends up to be a franchise player because in reality them picks your giving up don't end up panning out most of the time.

Hard part is there are no guarantees, if you trade the farm and the guy is a bust it stings ultra hard, if you just whiff on a guy but didn't spend the farm atleast it don't sting as bad.

I'd just hold tight and take the best guy available or take a trade to move down if there is some eager team to move up for a guy they want.

As a fan though if they think they have their guy and move up to get him I wouldn't mind, Spielman has shown he has a pair so he would do what it takes to move up for a guy if we think he's "THE ONE".

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I dont think they should move up or down. I think they just take the best player that is on the board at #8, there will be a good playmaker available then. I agree if they think there is a star they want, go get him.

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Big Dave2

Are we really talking like this Manziel kid is that legit? Andrew Luck legit?

Please! You should be asking that question in reverse. Is Andrew Luck Johnny Football Legit.

I know you aren't much for facts and figures but you should probably take a peek at johnny footballs stats once and then Andrew Luck's. You would see that JF's stats are better than AL's even though JF played only 2 years, was only a sophomore, played in the toughest conference in college football against the very best opponents college football has to offer.

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BuckSutherland

Wow, that is all I have in response to that.

LOL. Luck took a team that was 2-14 to an 11-5 record in one year. First victory of course was against the queens. Followed it up with an 11-5 record this year, and the biggest comeback win in playoff history (28pts). I look at the cast around Luck, and its not that good.

Pretty sure I would take Luck over the little Johnny.

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If you listen to Zimmer...and listen closely...Carr is the guy they're targeting. Blue collar QB with a rocket arm who comes to work first and is the last to leave...

Don't know if they take him at 8...but they'll take him either late in the 1st or early 2nd on a trade up.

Spielmans specialty is trading back in to the 1st....

A trade BACK at 8 would make this even more likely....

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BuckSutherland

Zep,

The Raiders are apparently in love with Carr. Sure is moving up on several of the draft boards. Carr learning behind Cassel for a year would sure make sense.

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FISHINGURU

Please! You should be asking that question in reverse. Is Andrew Luck Johnny Football Legit.

I know you aren't much for facts and figures but you should probably take a peek at johnny footballs stats once and then Andrew Luck's. You would see that JF's stats are better than AL's even though JF played only 2 years, was only a sophomore, played in the toughest conference in college football against the very best opponents college football has to offer.

JF has never taken an NFL snap so he has no stats, college stats mean absolutely nothing. There is a never ending list of college QB's that had monster college stats then come into the NFL and take a dump. To compare a college kid to a guy that has proven himself to be an upper echelon NFL QB is preposterous.

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Jm has a couple things, he has the drive to win games, and be a leader on the field. Them are things you can't teach. Add his stats and talents he has the potential to be a decent QB.

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potential....

Ryan Leaf had potential

Jamarcus Russel had potential

Christian Ponder had potential (according to the Vikings)

That and 25 cents might get you a cup of coffee on Senior's day at the local cafe...

I'd take Luck on any day of the week and twice on Sunday over Manziel.

Manziel is waaaaaaaay more worried about how rich he gets and how fast he gets there, than any long term NFL career. He even knows he will be a flash in the pan. Not saying he does not possess talent, he does, just not going to endure the grind that is the NFL. He is too busy patenting his slogans, catch phrases and nickmnames so he can promote himself and make bookoo bucks before he is run out of town on an old horse...

I like Carr, I like McCarron... I'd even go Murray. the three ring circus that is Manziel... no thanks.

Good Luck!

Ken

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Manziel is already rich. He family is in the oil business. He definitely craves the spotlight, which is something money can't buy, but he'll be fine financially with our without football.

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Potential, and skills they show in college is all anyone has to go off of, for any player. Including Luck.

Of all the QB in the draft, Manziel is not a safe bet, but he has the biggest upside of anyone in the draft. He could also flop.

Bortles is probably your safest bet to a starter as there is in the draft, but he will never be a franchise QB.

Bridgewater, I dont think will make it in the NFL, he will be a TJack type QB.

Carr needs a lot polishing, and may turn into a starter after a couple years of practices, and holding the clip board.

I would take Manziel over any of them, then Carr, then Bortles. But I would sit all of them for at least a year, before starting them.

As for the rest of the QB's, they are going to be pure luck if they amount to anything as for a starter is concerned.

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Bet McCarron ends up a starter. Much better value than Manziel.

As far as money goes, the rich never stop trying to get richer. You're kidding yourself if you don't think he's in it for the money as much if not more than the spotlight. He knew his value could potentially never be greater than right now, that's why he came out. The spot light would be on him just as much in school as in the NFL. But A torn ACL in college could potentially drop him back several rounds. He wants Rock star money and status. If it wasn't money driven, why all the patent apps for his slogans? He already said he's coming out with clothing with all the sayings. More money!

Good luck!

Ken

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CaptainMusky

Yep, all those things are reasons I cannot stand the guy. I dont remember any player coming into the league that was as full of himself as he seems to be. Competitor? YES, but its all the other things that bring upon distractions.

Just think if he put all that unnecessary effort from his self-promoting into refining his craft how good he could be.

Much rather have a Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck type, lace em up and lets play. Dont bother me with all the other stuff.

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Big Dave2

JF has never taken an NFL snap so he has no stats, college stats mean absolutely nothing. There is a never ending list of college QB's that had monster college stats then come into the NFL and take a dump. To compare a college kid to a guy that has proven himself to be an upper echelon NFL QB is preposterous.

I'm not comparing JF's stats to Luck's NFL stats. I'm comparing 2 years of college stats to 2 years of college stats. I'm pretty sure that Luck didn't have any NFL stats before he was drafted either so it was his college stats that were analyzed. I'm just asking you to analyze JF's college stats the same way.

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Big Dave2

Wow, that is all I have in response to that.

Yes WOW, Johnny Football's stats are really that good. It's about time you came around to being wowed!

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DrJuice1980

Luck is the definition of an NFL QB, JM is a hybrid. When is the last time a hybrid did anything semi-spectacular? Mike Vick? He aint no Mike Vick. He's not as athletic as Steve Young either. He's a fad, just like the read option without any wrinkles. He will be eaten up. Big Dave you're just brainwashed into thinking these great SEC defenses are similar to the NFL. Not even close my friend, not even close. Not being big man on campus will also have an effect.

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When has a "hybrid" done anything? I would call Russel Wilson a "hybrid" and if I do recall he is the latest super bowl champ homeboy!!

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When is the last time a hybrid did anything semi-spectacular?

Russel Wilson. 2 time Pro-Bowler. Super Bowl Champion.

Does that count?

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thatoneguy

Kaepernick is carving out a nice career for himself in SF as well. Pretty solid stuff for a guy just a few years in.

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He's not?

He ranked #3 in rushing yards for QB's both years he has been in the league.

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DrJuice1980

He rushes on average for 32 yrds a game versus 202 yrds passing. Thats hybrid to you?

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DrJuice1980

Russell Wilson:

Weaknesses

Wilson's height will be his biggest inhibitor at the next level and the largest reason for his late-round value. It remains to be seen if he can throw effectively from the pocket at the next level.

Johnny Manziel:

Weaknesses

Has an unorthodox body type with marginal height, rounded shoulders, an underdeveloped body and very big feet that almost look clumsy. Will need to learn to do a better job protecting his body and sliding. Feels pocket ghosts and often takes off running at the second flash of coverage. Undisciplined -- plays his own offense and presses to make plays. Cannot see over the pocket easily and almost never steps up into it, creating extra difficulties for OL coaches to coordinate blocking schemes and for offensive linemen to anticipate where the pocket will be. Dances around the pocket too much and creates needless sacks rolling into protection when the pocket is clean. Has not worked from under center, and footwork and set-up will require refinement. Often throws the ball up in the air and relies on big receivers to adjust to it and make plays, highly benefiting from the playmaking ability of Mike Evans. Tends to overshoot the deep ball and throw off his back foot, leading to some underthrows (too many dirtballs on the move) and diminished accuracy. Needlessly pats the ball when he scans the field. Could stand to do a better job carrying out play-action fakes. Has not developed a reputation as a worker or for doing the extras. Suspect intangibles -- not a leader by example or known to inspire by his words. Carries a sense of entitlement and prima-donna arrogance seeking out the bright lights of Hollywood. Is known to party too much and is drawn to all the trappings of the game. Lacks ideal starting experience (only two years), operated a non-traditional offense and has a lot to learn.

Maybe he all of a sudden corrected all that stuff because he showed off at his pro-day in a helmet and shoulder pads.

Rubes love the Rubes.

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He rushes on average for 32 yrds a game versus 202 yrds passing. Thats hybrid to you?

Yes. If that's not the case, who would you label a hybrid QB?

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DrJuice1980

Mike Vick.

Hybrids do not come around often because their game cant transition, unless the athletic talent exceeds what they lack in being a prototypical QB. Mike Vick was an absolute freak, like him or not (I do not) he could do things that we had never seen and it will be a very long time until we see them again. Manziel couldnt carry Mike Vick's jock.

You cant just look at a stat line and draw a line from #5 and up for QB rushing leaders and say "These guys are hybrids" thats one of the dumbest excuses out there.

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So then where is the line drawn? Other then right under Vick, and Manziel?

I would think that his almost 70% pass completion over the past 2 years, 165 QB rating, or his almost 8000 yards passing in 2 years may qualify him as a passer. Or his 63/22 TD to INT rating, But I guess not by your book.

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