Manziel Debate

[thatoneguy]

Top 5 QB with a terrible team because of a terrible D:

Matt Ryan, Atlanta Falcons

Reply???

Ryan isn't a top 5 QB, for starters. That said, yeah their D sucks rocks for sure. But they've also been riddled with injuries on O, including losing Steven Jackson for an extended period, losing Roddy White for several weeks, and losing Julio Jones for the season halfway through the year.

So yeah, the D stinks, but it's not the only reason ATL stinks as well.

FWIW, Ryan is 7th in yards, 9th in TD, 11th in rating, 6th in completion %, and 21st in yards per attempt. Just, y'know, so you see it's the numbers and not just me saying he's not a top-5 guy.

[schmitty3]

Matt Ryan a top 5 quarterback? No way. I would take Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Russel Wilson, Andrew Luck, Drew Brees, and even Tony Romo all over Matt Ryan.

[DrJuice1980]

Ryan isn't a top 5 QB, for starters. That said, yeah their D sucks rocks for sure. But they've also been riddled with injuries on O, including losing Steven Jackson for an extended period, losing Roddy White for several weeks, and losing Julio Jones for the season halfway through the year.

So yeah, the D stinks, but it's not the only reason ATL stinks as well.

FWIW, Ryan is 7th in yards, 9th in TD, 11th in rating, 6th in completion %, and 21st in yards per attempt. Just, y'know, so you see it's the numbers and not just me saying he's not a top-5 guy.

2012:

Matt Ryan

Season Stats: 422/615; 4,719 passing yards; 32 TD to 14 INT; 99.1 QB rating

Defense: 5th ranked Defense

2013:

Matt Ryan

You already provided the stats

Defense: 29th ranked Defense

I guess it is you just saying it. Nice try untoughguy

Looks like its all about the "D"

got a clue yet?

[DrJuice1980]

Matt Ryan has been a top 10 QB since his rookie season, last year he was #4/#5 according to his stats. Then the "D" fell apart.

[creepworm]

Matt Ryan has been a top 10 QB since his rookie season, last year he was #4/#5 according to his stats. Then the "D" fell apart.

Has nothing to due with Harry Douglas being his number one receiver over Julio Jones or Roddy White. Those two are obviously the same talent level as Harry Douglas.

[thatoneguy]

Now I'm convinced the Juice is just trolling. The name calling, the specious reasoning (if you can even call it reasoning), relentless question begging. It's sad to watch, but still kinda funny.

I'd like to hear your explanation, O guru, on how Atlanta's defense is responsible for Ryan's decline, and not the injuries on offense. Oh - and he wasn't a top 5 QB before, either. Btw, nice job backpedaling from "top 5" to "top 10." Kind of a big difference between the two.

Keep the comedy gold coming, champ.

[DrJuice1980]

Why you got to erase your statistics post???

Youre telling me that a Defense has nothing to do with offensive and QB production? "Thats the dumbest thing on this whole thread, lol."

So when a defense controls the game, constantly get 3 and outs, limits the TOP for the opposition, the offense doesnt get more time to execute?

Those are unrelated arent they.

[DrJuice1980]

No backpedaling chief, He was a top 5 last year, I believe I put stats up for you to read not my fault you dont know how to read a stat line. Those were top 5 stats.

[DrJuice1980]

Looks like LMIT's puppets are in full force today...

[LMITOUT]

Looks like your goose is cooked.

Next.

[DrJuice1980]

How so? I believe stats triumph opinion. Defense controls the TOP, look at the rate in which a win=TOP dominance. 2 min drives ending in a score by the offense aren't the reason for more ball control. It's the 3 and outs.

[Big Dave2]

How so? I believe stats triumph opinion. Defense controls the TOP, look at the rate in which a win=TOP dominance. 2 min drives ending in a score by the offense aren't the reason for more ball control. It's the 3 and outs.

In good teams with top offenses the opposite is true. A good offense keeps a mediocre defense off the field and rested so there is less substituting of starters needed. A good offense also gets their team out to an early lead forcing the other team's offense out of their game plan early which plays into the hands of even a mediocre defense.

[DrJuice1980]

I agree with your first part Big Dave. A good offense will provide a nice cushion for the D to risk more and play better than they are, same could be said for the opposite. I can only think of a few offenses like that, and we are a FAR cry from being a Denver Broncos. Johnny football isn't the answer and no other QB in the draft is. It's easier to build defense.

[Juneau4]

I bet ther'se a couple people on here, when they look in the mirror, start argueing with what they see.

[Big Dave2]

It's easier to build defense.

I disagree. To build this defense into that caliber of defense where you can win a superbowl without having a top-notch QB, you will need a lot more than 1 first round pick.

[JeffB]

People don't recognize good defense today when they see it. With todays rules if you hold the other team below 21 points your defense did its job. Even the Vikings are averaging over 24 points per game of offense. The top six defenses hold the other team below 19 points per game and will all be in the playoffs.

[CaptainMusky]

There are clearly needs all over the defense but last year with the same roster with one exception, Winfield, they were a capable one. There is a lit of issues with depth and some people not playing well this year but its not like we started the season with an entirely new defense. With Winfield on the d this year I have to believe they would have been significantly better.

[DrJuice1980]

Big Dave, that is why I have said from the beginning that we need to acquire multiple (more than 2) day 1 picks. Because there is no QB that will turn this team into having a high power offense. We have to think about what we are. Look in the mirror. We have the best RB ever (and a very solid #2). We need to build a D so we can CONTROL THE BALL with that run game and work off the play action like we have been doing but our QB spot blows, we shouldn't need to burn a 1st pick on a "capable" guy. No LMIT, I don't have a fantasy about some mythical QB falling into our lap, it seems like that is your dream. Pinch yourself, wake up from that dream.

There are way more Jamarcus Russells out there then Demetrius Underwoods. The margin for error is less, and we are far away from 1 player being the answer to all our problems.

[Dylan33]

What is the title of this thread? Oh yeah, Manziel Debate. I looked back 3 pages, with no mention of Johnny Football....I love how these threads twist and turn and the discussions are in now way related to what the topic is.

Carry on.

[Juan Grande]

The only two teams in the past twenty years to win Super Bowls without a good QB were the 2001 Ravens and 2003 Bucs. The other 18 either had elite QBs or got elite level QB play during their playoff run.

Like others have said, with all the rule changes favoring the offense, it's very tough to keep a halfway decent offense under 20 points these days.

The Vikes should be able to get Bridgewater or Manziel with their first pick. I would take either of those guys in a second.

[DrJuice1980]

Bra,

Eli is an elite QB or was he a product of the defense?

(holding New England to 17 and 14 points wasn't defense?)

Big Ben is not elite

Joe Flacco is not elite

Since 03 there have been 6 super bowls have been won by "non" elite QBs. If youre saying that the top 10-15 QBs in the league are "elite" then it doesn't take much to hold that title does it. To me Elite is top 3-5.

[CaptainMusky]

What is the title of this thread? Oh yeah, Manziel Debate. I looked back 3 pages, with no mention of Johnny Football....I love how these threads twist and turn and the discussions are in now way related to what the topic is.

Carry on.

There is plenty to whet your appetite about Manziel in the other 23 pages knock yourself out there and enjoy the reading.

[Big Dave2]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1757087-how-to-win-the-super-bowl

[Big Dave2]

Bra,

Eli is an elite QB or was he a product of the defense?

(holding New England to 17 and 14 points wasn't defense?)

Too bad for you that the Giants defense was ranked 17th in 2007 and 25th in 2011.

[LMITOUT]

Quote:

The evolution of the NFL toward the passing game is apparent. The winners of the past 10 Super Bowls ranked an average of ninth in net adjusted yards per attempt on offense and 10th in allowed net adjusted yards per attempt on defense. On the ground, these title winners averaged just 19th in rushing yards per carry and 14th in rushing yards allowed per carry.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.<---- Stuart Smalley's formula for the Vikings

[LMITOUT]

Too bad for you that the Giants defense was ranked 17th in 2007 and 25th in 2011.

You're forgetting that apparently the regular season doesn't count, according to Mr. Smalley.

[DrJuice1980]

so the Giants offense held the Pats offense to 17 and 14?

[DrJuice1980]

Quote:

The evolution of the NFL toward the passing game is apparent. The winners of the past 10 Super Bowls ranked an average of ninth in net adjusted yards per attempt on offense and 10th in allowed net adjusted yards per attempt on defense. On the ground, these title winners averaged just 19th in rushing yards per carry and 14th in rushing yards allowed per carry.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.

It's clear that "run and stop the run" is no longer the secret to NFL success.<---- Stuart Smalley's formula for the Vikings

Was AP on those teams?

[Juan Grande]

Juice,

You didn't read this part of my post "...or got elite level QB play during their playoff run."

I don't consider Eli or Flacco elite, but they both played at a very high level in their playoff runs. Check out Flacco's postseason stats, they're some of the best ever.

[LMITOUT]

Was AP on those teams?

Not only are there mythical QB's and mythical football seasons that just have a Super Bowl in your world, but now we have mythical RB's that are a dime a dozen and will be there year after year, even when they've been rode hard and put away wet every...single...game because the team doesn't have a QB worth squat.

Good grief.

Turn the TV on and watch the Vikings or at least take a look at the standings in the paper once in a while. They've proven this approach doesn't work...year after year after year after...

Enjoy your trip to fantasy land. Send us a postcard.