APR 2013?

[james_walleye]

A Few Loud Mouths.....Or As AnyOne Who Had Done Their Research Would Tell You.....The Majority Of Zone 3 Deer Hunters......

[PurpleFloyd]

Zone 3 is a great place for it. Just leave the SC area out of it.

[TruthWalleyes]

A Few Loud Mouths.....Or As AnyOne Who Had Done Their Research Would Tell You.....The Majority Of Zone 3 Deer Hunters......

I'm not convinced. Show me your souce? Preston Bowling Alley?

[BigTen]

I wouldnt be upset if they implemented APR in West Central MN, but I don't care that much either way. It would be nice to improve the size structure just from an entertainment viewpoint, but I am not smart enough to figure out all the other details.

I do have one main view on the larger subject though. I think we can all agree (maybe even the DNR, only took 15 yrs)that the deer herd is and has been in a pretty poor state over the last decade or so, at least in agricultural areas. Everyone wants to supposedly do whats right for the deer herd, yet they are giving out doe tags left and right. If you want to do some form of quality deer management, you need a herd to manage first. Until we get to that point, this is a stupid argument IMO.

[james_walleye]

Come On Truth, It's Not A Secret.....Do Some Homework. I Mean Whatever You Do Don't Let Facts Get In The Way Of Your Argument. The Sources Are Out There For Everyone To See. I Know It's An Inconvenient Truth For You.....

[BLACKJACK]

A Few Loud Mouths.....Or As AnyOne Who Had Done Their Research Would Tell You.....The Majority Of Zone 3 Deer Hunters......

My big concern when APR was first tried on a 'trial' basis is that its kind of like the gun control argument, give an inch and they'll take a mile. Sure enough, now the horn porn guys are trying to expand it statewide.

APR is fine in a zone where you have lots of deer, lots of doe permits, so even if you're restricted on bucks, you can shoot a doe.

Where I have a problem with APR's is in the zones where you have a lottery for doe permits, when you don't get one, and if you have APR, you can't shoot a deer that year. Thats will drive hunters from the sport - just because the horn porn hunters want the DNR to tie a big buck to every tree for them.

I've hunted lottery zones in Central MN and some years you're lucky to even see a deer in shooting range. To me, in one of those scarce deer zones, any deer you shoot is a trophy.

To be honest, I like venison, its really going to [PoorWordUsage] me off if I can't shoot a deer some year just because of horn porn.

The topper is that there are big bucks throughout the state, you see pictures in ODN, websites, in bait shops, etc. yet thats not good enough for the trophy horn porn guys, they want to restrict other hunters instead of getting out and hunting one of those big deer down. If they're such great hunters that the only 'trophy' deer is one with a big rack, prove you're a great hunter and go hunt it down.

[TruthWalleyes]

Come On Truth, It's Not A Secret.....Do Some Homework. I Mean Whatever You Do Don't Let Facts Get In The Way Of Your Argument. The Sources Are Out There For Everyone To See. I Know It's An Inconvenient Truth For You.....

61% approval rate back in Feb 13....That is the majority i guess.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/192100511.html

Although of the 40,000 hunters, they surveyed 4,000....

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/192753501.html

So 61% of 4,000 = 2,440 of 40,000 or 6% confirmed to support APR.

I like how in the 2nd article, Vagts finishes his statement with "It's not all about bagging big bucks" CLASSIC... LOL.

[MUSKY18]

If the debate is that you should let a deer with a small rack walk because you need deer with bigger racks for a healthy herd then the big ones are the ones they should let walk so they can keep the herd health balanced instead of shooting them and sticking their head on the wall where they are doing the herd no good at all and they should be culling the fork horns and the deer with poorly developed racks to get them out of the breeding population.

Perhaps you should read this link:

Deer Management

It will pretty much show that your above statement holds NO WATER and is completely wrong. There lies the problem. Everyone has a solution, but no one will take the time to research the correct answer.

[PurpleFloyd]

If the debate is that you should let a deer with a small rack walk because you need deer with bigger racks for a healthy herd then the big ones are the ones they should let walk so they can keep the herd health balanced instead of shooting them and sticking their head on the wall where they are doing the herd no good at all and they should be culling the fork horns and the deer with poorly developed racks to get them out of the breeding population.

[Bear55]

I don't care either way, I just want a decent population to work with and I can find the bucks on my own. Things have been rough up north the past several years, population was coming back ok then we had that nasty spring so who knows. APR would certainly make life a little easier but I hope its never used state wide, its just not feasible for lotto areas or even a lot of managed areas. However, it might be a great idea for intensive harvest zones that hold a lot of deer.

The biggest problem us public land "horn porn" guys have is finding an area that holds mature bucks. There either needs to be a large enough population that some slip through the cracks, or I need some really smart or lucky deer to run the gauntlet of gun season and get to 3.5 years of age or older. Once they get that old then the fun begins, odds of them being shot by another hunter go way down and you really need to know your stuff or get lucky to shoot one. Lots of fun when it turns out right, but most aren't willing to put in the effort to get one.

[TruthWalleyes]

I'll quote the author's final comment.

"Some people obsess over the idea that they don’t have great hunting because they have the wrong deer. This is like the man who thinks he needs a new wife or girlfriend but finds he had the perfect girl all along... the real problem was he mistreated her. You don’t need different deer. You just need to change the way you treat the ones you have.

Deer Management

[BLACKJACK]

I'll quote the author's final comment.

Excellent!!!

[nonteepical]

so it took that simple sentence to convince you guys that we need to do different management to the deer herd we currently have? thats what we've been saying for the past 4 years and thats what that sentece is saying.

[PurpleFloyd]

so it took that simple sentence to convince you guys that we need to do different management to the deer herd we currently have? thats what we've been saying for the past 4 years and thats what that sentece is saying.

To solve what specific problem?

[PurpleFloyd]

I'll quote the author's final comment.

"Some people obsess over the idea that they don’t have great hunting because they have the wrong deer. This is like the man who thinks he needs a new wife or girlfriend but finds he had the perfect girl all along... the real problem was he mistreated her. You don’t need different deer. You just need to change the way you treat the ones you have.

Deer Management

I like this one:

balance adult sex ratios through harvesting does and reducing pressure on bucks.

Man, I can't imagine the pressure that is on them thinking how they are going to service too many does. maybe we could teach them to draw straws.

[flipper]

so it took that simple sentence to convince you guys that we need to do different management to the deer herd we currently have? thats what we've been saying for the past 4 years and thats what that sentece is saying.

No, to me that sentence says: "Be happy with what you have and quit your constant whining about needing bigger horns".

If you want large adult bucks with big racks then don't be harvesting them for cripe sakes.

[TruthWalleyes]

No, to me that sentence says: "Be happy with what you have and quit your constant whining about needing bigger horns".

If you want large adult bucks with big racks then don't be harvesting them for cripe sakes. Go pay for a fenced in hunt.

[Mo Gator]

This is fun argument to read, great to see the differing view points!

I may be missing something, and am definitely no expert on the subject, but why are all the nay-sayers so convinced they won't be able to kill a deer if APR is put into their area?

The first couple years may be tougher, cause you have to let those yearling bucks live that you usually shoot, but once they have had a chance to grow the area will have that many more 2.5 yr old and up bucks to shoot. Right? Maybe a small percentage of these bucks die due to other causes (like always happens anyway), but your overall buck population will transform into a much more mature average resulting in bigger bucks taking the bullet instead of the yearlings.

And it's not like APR requires every buck to reach "trophy" status, because you can kill them once they have 4 points on a side. Even in NE MN where I hunt the majority of 2.5 yr olds have that. So I don't understand why it would be so bad to let the bucks grow up a little bit...

[jerkbait]

This is fun argument to read, great to see the differing view points!

I may be missing something, and am definitely no expert on the subject, but why are all the nay-sayers so convinced they won't be able to kill a deer if APR is put into their area?

The first couple years may be tougher, cause you have to let those yearling bucks live that you usually shoot, but once they have had a chance to grow the area will have that many more 2.5 yr old and up bucks to shoot. Right? Maybe a small percentage of these bucks die due to other causes (like always happens anyway), but your overall buck population will transform into a much more mature average resulting in bigger bucks taking the bullet instead of the yearlings.

And it's not like APR requires every buck to reach "trophy" status, because you can kill them once they have 4 points on a side. Even in NE MN where I hunt the majority of 2.5 yr olds have that. So I don't understand why it would be so bad to let the bucks grow up a little bit...

So what is the ultimate gain then by lettin them grow up a little bit, Bigger racks??

[flipper]

and tougher meat!

[B. Amish]

surprised no one has said mn used to be #1 in the record book yet.

[MUSKY18]

So TruthWalleys....you are saying the only place that you are able to shoot large, mature bucks with big racks is if you pay for a high fence hunt? Seriously? That's just complete and utter nonsense.

[MUSKY18]

Purple....if you are going to quote the article, quote it all, not just the parts that you can get to work for your argument. How bout this:

protect immature bucks to give them a chance to reach physical maturity.

The article states that most bucks begin breeding as yearlings. So if you are blasting all the young deer, you are blasting your breeding stock. Yeah you want to see the big boys pass on their genetics, but while Mr Big Boy is locked down with one doe, and there are 15 other does that are in esterus, the yearlings and younger bucks are sneaking in the back door to breed those does. Shooting younger bucks doesn't do good for anyone. Let em grow.

[PurpleFloyd]

This is fun argument to read, great to see the differing view points!

I may be missing something, and am definitely no expert on the subject, but why are all the nay-sayers so convinced they won't be able to kill a deer if APR is put into their area?

[B. Amish]

The article states that most bucks begin breeding as yearlings. So if you are blasting all the young deer, you are blasting your breeding stock. Yeah you want to see the big boys pass on their genetics, but while Mr Big Boy is locked down with one doe, and there are 15 other does that are in esterus, the yearlings and younger bucks are sneaking in the back door to breed those does. Shooting younger bucks doesn't do good for anyone. Let em grow.

that makin a no sense.

genes don't change with age.

[PurpleFloyd]

Purple....if you are going to quote the article, quote it all, not just the parts that you can get to work for your argument. How bout this:

protect immature bucks to give them a chance to reach physical maturity.

The article states that most bucks begin breeding as yearlings. So if you are blasting all the young deer, you are blasting your breeding stock. Yeah you want to see the big boys pass on their genetics, but while Mr Big Boy is locked down with one doe, and there are 15 other does that are in esterus, the yearlings and younger bucks are sneaking in the back door to breed those does. Shooting younger bucks doesn't do good for anyone. Let em grow.

First off- the idea that every young buck gets blasted is just wrong. Show me one single data set that shows that there has ever been an entire or even a significant number of any particular year class taken out with the current regulations. If you look at the PDF from the DNR on the harvest for 2012, a significant amount of the state falls into the category of .1-1.6 deer harvested per square mile. Now, to take that statistic alone and understand that with an estimated population that over the years has been in the 1 million range and the annual harvest of all deer ranging in the 150-200 thousand range and that means there are generally 80% of the deer left after the season is over.

80%.

I have not been able to find the chart that shows the estimated breakdown of does to bucks but that means 20% of the total is harvested and for every yearling deer to get shot that means that pretty much no older bucks or does were taken and if that is the case the next year there would be a buttload of deer that are 2.5 years or older out there and that isn't the case.

And from that QDM article the guy clearly stated that the genetics are there whether it is a large mature buck or a yearling. You don't change the genetics by having the old deer breed. If that were the case then, as I said, let the big ones walk to do the breeding and take the middle sized 4-6 pointers or something rather than hanging them on the wall once they get to that point.

[Bear55]

surprised no one has said mn used to be #1 in the record book yet.

We use to be #1

And MN hunters don't like to shoot as many large bucks as hunters in other states.

[BLACKJACK]

so it took that simple sentence to convince you guys that we need to do different management to the deer herd we currently have? thats what we've been saying for the past 4 years and thats what that sentece is saying.

[Jameson]

...I've hunted lottery zones in Central MN and some years you're lucky to even see a deer in shooting range...

If in the low deer population areas of the state, particularly Southwest MN, where some years you're lucky to even see a deer, how cool would it be to see three or four small bucks during the duration of the hunt that would have been shot by someone else at the crack of dawn opener morning? Even if you couldn't shoot them, wouldn't it be better than what we have now, where you don't see any?

[Bear55]

so it took that simple sentence to convince you guys that we need to do different management to the deer herd we currently have? thats what we've been saying for the past 4 years and thats what that sentece is saying.

flipper

No, to me that sentence says: "Be happy with what you have and quit your constant whining about needing bigger horns".

Bingo, thats exactly the way I read it.

To me is says we are mistreating our herd, first by targeting too many young bucks for decades and then later on after qdm by targeting too many does and watching the population crash in some areas. A good balance is needed, shooting a pile of young bucks is just as dumb as shooting every doe you see in an area. A nice balance would be perfect but the DNR can't do a perfect job and most hunters are too dumb to monitor their own herds. So we are stuck with this nice little tug of war.