APR 2013?

[PEATMOSS]

There are people like you who believe that the majority has a right to impose their beliefs on the minority and their are people like me that believe that personal freedom and liberty should rule.

Be careful with this "majority rules" line of reasoning you are pushing. As our society becomes more urbanized, things like gun ownership and hunting are becoming increasingly minority activities. By your own reasoning, the city folk should be able to dictate an end to hunting and gun ownership by simple majority vote.

[tfran123]

Would you rather fish a lake with all walleyes capped out at 13" because of over harvest or fish a lake that gives you the eaters and chances at bigger fish as well.

I know, can't make the connection can you. It's really not that hard and furthermore you're in a box. . . .

[mntatonka]

My point exactly the way it was done was not very accurate

actually, the theory behind the survey was pretty good and based on accepted practice. However, I personally believe the questions on the survey were written in a way to get a specific result (like most surveys)

[TruthWalleyes]

I practice qdm myself, just don't like the legislation. I might be in the minority of those against Apr. If much rather see hunters choose to pass than be forced too. I would love to see the DNR or registration stations collect information like antler points and inches.

I bet many of you would like to see that info also... It will likely go up and down year to year depending on a lot of environmental conditions like nutrition as well as early/late births due to high doe to buck ratios and you would likely not see a continued increase in points and inches due to continued practice of Apr.

[TruthWalleyes]

actually, the theory behind the survey was pretty good and based on accepted practice. However, I personally believe the questions on the survey were written in a way to get a specific result (like most surveys)

My brother filled out that survey with no knowledge of the Apr that has taken place in se mn. Of course he responded YES to the question " do you want bigger bucks"

When I told him that meant Apr, he was disappointed he answered it that way. I was surprised he got that survey, but I think it was a state wide survey and not the zone 300 that I got.

[surewood]

I don't think hunters voting on a deer reg that still gives everyone the right to hunt deer just a different way compares to getting our guns and hunting taken away. Gun vs anti gun is a very different group then pro Apr and anti Apr.

[picksbigwagon]

Well this is earlier than expected, but after the past five years (?) there is still quite a divide on this topic. I don't like the DNR instituting this while still allowing the firearm season to occur during the rut but that is my opinion. There are vocal/active groups in SE MN that have pushed for this and from the people I have talked to in 346 and 349, the hunting is great. Now that being said, 346 and 349 are unlike 80% of the state of MN and there is a majority of zone 3 that probably shouldn't be APR either, due to their lack of deer density......

Yes my opinion has changed over the past five years, but this is year 4 if I am not mistaken, and I agree with truth, the DNR should be taking measurements or at least counting points, not expecting Jonny "ear gauge" or Suzie "inktopus" to show any hustle, motivation or desire to leave their spot behind the counter at the BP station in Houston.

[96trigger]

SEMN is a unique area in Mn. It can handle APR. I primarily hunt zones 342 and 344 and I can say that personally, the hunting is great. The hunters that I talk to are fond of APR, much more than they were 4 years ago. Not many of them have tagged the big bucks and I would label very few trophy hunters. What they are having is a more pleasurable experience hunting. There are more deer and a greater chance at seeing a nice buck. Many of them are in their 60's and in the last couple of years have seen the biggest bucks of their lives,even though none of them were successful, they commented on how great it was just to see those deer,even if they were 200 yards away through the binoculars.

If you don't believe the science behind it, fine, you are entitled to your belief. If you fundamentally disagree with the DNR regulating what we can and cannot shoot, you are entitled to your opinion. Even though i find that it is an odd one as the DNR has been regulating that since its inception.

I don't think APR should ever limit ones ability to harvest a deer. In SEMN, it is not uncommon to see 4 or 5 deer a day. I don't believe APR has limited hunter success in this area. If you want venison,it is here and not terribly difficult to come by for the average hunter and weekend warrior. I cannot speak for the rest of the state, nor would I push for statewide APR as every area is different and the goal of the DNR should be to regulate for population before age structure.

These are just my thoughts on it, I'm sure I will probably get labeled and verbally prosecuted for them by some of you that feel the need to call names, cut and paste snippets, and find witty pictures or quotes that depict pro APR guys as the evil hunting empire and the loud mouth group. In reality, we are hunters just like you, we take our kids hunting and enjoy time at deer camp with old friends and relatives. We enjoy being in the woods just as much as you, but have diifferent views on what we want our own hunting experiences to be.

On a side note, it's a bummer to come on here and read some of the garbage that gets posted, it has taken away some of The enjoyment of the site...there are a certain few that are essentially cyber bullies on this site,berating and belittling people for their thoughts and view points if it differs from theirs no matter the topic, but I guess that's part of being on a public forum.

[jdog]

well said 96

[NoWiser]

Good post, Trigger. I can't disagree with anything you said.

[PEATMOSS]

well said 96

Absolutely. It was a remarkably civil and eloquent post. Many of us would also argue that it's fundamentally wrong.

The simple truth of the matter is that hunting, like everything else is evolving. Within the deer hunting community, there is a faction of hunters that has, for whatever reason, become increasingly infatuated with big antlers. While big antlered bucks have always been prized by the general hunting public, this single minded obsession with antlers is a relatively new phenomenon.

With regards to APR or QDM or whatever you want to embrace, the bottom line is that these practices amount to managing our herd for antlers. One can cite all the pseudoscience they want about age structures, "balanced" deer herds etc. None of these concerns seem to have existed prior to the big antler movement. Regardless of how much lipstick you slap on this pig, proponents are in fact pushing to manage our herd for antlers and it would be refreshing if a few would just admit it.

One inescapable fact remains in this entire debate, if a strong majority of hunters actually and honestly embraced this belief, there would be no need for a law to force it on everyone. We are all responsible for what deer we slap our tag on and we are all subject to the one buck seasonal limit. We don't need surveys, town hall meetings or legislation. We all could simply vote with our deer tags. Unfortunately, that isn't how we do things in this country anymore. Instead, someone gets a "good idea" and decides they also know what's best for the rest of us.

[MUSKY18]

I have no problem in admitting it. I HUNT FOR ANTLERS! However, I also hunt for meat because I love eating venison. I will shoot a mature doe to fill the freezer and then spend the rest of the season up a tree waiting for the "big boy" to present himself. I also put in some food plots to help the overall nutrition of the deer on the land I hunt, as well as mineral licks. My hope is that I can help the deer to grow to full maturity, and then harvest them. Key word there being mature. I, personally, just don't believe in shooting young deer. If that makes me wrong in some peoples eyes, then so be it. Last year I hunted right up until Dec 30 and never took a single deer. Buck or doe, simply because the deer that I had a chance to shoot were to young.

[TruthWalleyes]

Peat and trigger, well said. Both views explained well. Like surewood said many times, there's nothing new to add here. I don't think means the discussion among hunters should or will stop, but that just shows the differing views.

I know most of you are great stewards of our resources and are passing that onto your children. i apologize for being insulting as I don't mean to put you good folks down.

I just put my 9yo on a plane to her new home in Washington state. Won't see her until after the deer season is closed. Don't feel like arguing much today.

Good hunting.

[NoWiser]

For once an APR thread took a turn for the better. Nice to see! I'd be willing to bet most on this thread could sit down, have a cold one together, and have a great time talking deer hunting and telling stories. We all just want to get out in the woods and enjoy the sport we love, after all.

Sorry to hear about your daughter's move, Truth. That stinks.

[MUSKY18]

For once an APR thread took a turn for the better. Nice to see! I'd be willing to bet most on this thread could sit down, have a cold one together, and have a great time talking deer hunting and telling stories. We all just want to get out in the woods and enjoy the sport we love, after all.

Sorry to hear about your daughter's move, Truth. That stinks.

Very true NoWiser. I'll talk about deer hunting with anyone, especially if ya wanna throw a couple of adult beverages into the mix!

Sorry bout your daughter as well Truth. I know how it feels. When I was deployed to Iraq, I missed 22 months of my kids........it sucks.

[BLACKJACK]

it doesn't cost the DNR anything to have the license agency ask one simple question WOULD YOU BE IN FAVOR OF APR'S WHERE YOU HUNT?

I think you need to go deeper than that. The wording of any survey question can sway the way people vote. 'Do you want to shoot bigger bucks' will draw a different response than 'do you want to shoot bigger bucks even though it means you might not be able to shoot any deer for a few years'.

Of course people would like to shoot bigger bucks but if they realize the consequences they might not.

If you're going to do a survey it needs to be done right.

[BLACKJACK]

Peat and trigger, well said.

Agreed. I can find lots of truth in both posts.

[PurpleFloyd]

Absolutely. It was a remarkably civil and eloquent post. Many of us would also argue that it's fundamentally wrong.

The simple truth of the matter is that hunting, like everything else is evolving. Within the deer hunting community, there is a faction of hunters that has, for whatever reason, become increasingly infatuated with big antlers. While big antlered bucks have always been prized by the general hunting public, this single minded obsession with antlers is a relatively new phenomenon.

With regards to APR or QDM or whatever you want to embrace, the bottom line is that these practices amount to managing our herd for antlers. One can cite all the pseudoscience they want about age structures, "balanced" deer herds etc. None of these concerns seem to have existed prior to the big antler movement. Regardless of how much lipstick you slap on this pig, proponents are in fact pushing to manage our herd for antlers and it would be refreshing if a few would just admit it.

One inescapable fact remains in this entire debate, if a strong majority of hunters actually and honestly embraced this belief, there would be no need for a law to force it on everyone. We are all responsible for what deer we slap our tag on and we are all subject to the one buck seasonal limit. We don't need surveys, town hall meetings or legislation. We all could simply vote with our deer tags. Unfortunately, that isn't how we do things in this country anymore. Instead, someone gets a "good idea" and decides they also know what's best for the rest of us.

[tfran123]

Yep, hard to paint everything with a broad brush - that much I'll agree.

I have a parcel available to me which consists of 640 acres just about 45 minutes south of the metro. About 50/50 ag vs timber. Great habitat. Problem is the local neighbors harvest every legal buck they can - typically they go about 15 for 15. This is the same thing that is happening across much of MN, I run cameras on the parcel that I have permission on and even though the neighbors don't shoot deer on this piece the outside influence of shooting what is the easiest deer in the woods to kill I notice a major imbalance. In fact it is rare to see anything other than does and 1.5 year olds. I remember before the neighbors started this practice and we'd see mature deer quite often, those days are gone and can be said for much of MN, period.

If you don't like APR then I'd suggest a buck lottery or at the least moving the opener off the rut (this part I feel strongly about).

I also hunt in Central MN and we (neighbors included) lay off anything that is an 8 pt or about 16" wide - typically a 3.5 year old or better only gets harvested. The differences in these parcels are dramatic (even though the Southern MN parcel has waaaay more potential), we have balance and everyone has a chance at a mature deer (albeit we don't get but one or two every year for 7 guys).

Appreciate everyone's perspective, again it's really hard to take a rule and put it on everyone but in the end I have a hard time believing more hunters don't want a better chance at shooting a mature buck. And to that end I think this is an evolving process . . .

[monstermoose78]

I was at the taxidermist's a few years back bring my brothers buck in and this old timer was dropping off his buck it was 7 pointer. I would put money that buck scored no more than 100 inches total. He was so excited that he finally shot a big buck. He told me that it took him 57 years of hunting to finally get a wall hanger. He told me the whole story from what he had from breakfast to showing me his grandpa's knife he gutted the deer out with. When the old timer asked to see the deer I was bring in I showed him. He then started second guessing if he should mount his buck. The taxidermist and I both told him that his deer was a good buck and it was his biggest in 57 years of hunting and not everyone is lucky enough to get a monster buck. Who are we to say what a trophy buck is it should in the eye of the beholder.

I have been letting young bucks walk for because I know that if I shoot one of them I will not have the chance to see a big one, but after letting some of those younger bucks walk. It makes me think maybe one of those younger bucks could make some ones hunting dreams come true.

[tracker x-2]

Yep, hard to paint everything with a broad brush - that much I'll agree.

I have a parcel available to me which consists of 640 acres just about 45 minutes south of the metro. About 50/50 ag vs timber. Great habitat. Problem is the local neighbors harvest every legal buck they can - typically they go about 15 for 15. This is the same thing that is happening across much of MN, I run cameras on the parcel that I have permission on and even though the neighbors don't shoot deer on this piece the outside influence of shooting what is the easiest deer in the woods to kill I notice a major imbalance. In fact it is rare to see anything other than does and 1.5 year olds. I remember before the neighbors started this practice and we'd see mature deer quite often, those days are gone and can be said for much of MN, period.

If you don't like APR then I'd suggest a buck lottery or at the least moving the opener off the rut (this part I feel strongly about).

I also hunt in Central MN and we (neighbors included) lay off anything that is an 8 pt or about 16" wide - typically a 3.5 year old or better only gets harvested. The differences in these parcels are dramatic (even though the Southern MN parcel has waaaay more potential), we have balance and everyone has a chance at a mature deer (albeit we don't get but one or two every year for 7 guys).

Appreciate everyone's perspective, again it's really hard to take a rule and put it on everyone but in the end I have a hard time believing more hunters don't want a better chance at shooting a mature buck. And to that end I think this is an evolving process . . .

I also hunt Scott co. and have experienced the exact same situation you described.....

[nonteepical]

Some of you guys are putting way to much thought into QDM. It's providing good habitat, dosen't have to be food plots deer also eat weeds, goldenrod for example deer eat it, along with other undesirable weeds to humans are natures food to wildlife.

Taking adequate number of does dosen't mean a [PoorWordUsage] load, it's whatever the land and population can support(an adequate number), it could be 0 or up to 4 per hunter depending on the population goal levels of the DNR, if you don't think the land your hunting has the population to support taking alot of does, then don't, just because theres "x" amount of tags available dosen't mean you are required to shoot that many.

Protection of the majority of yearling bucks, thats it, only the yearlings, all other bucks are fair game, only trying to recruit more into an older age class. APR is only a tool to protect the majority of yearlings. Other tools would be earn a buck, buck lottery or inside spread of a bucks antlers, APR is just the easiest for hunters to do and thats having to count to 4.

QDM dosen't have to exactly match what was happening in South Carolina, it can be done to any deer herd, in any condition, it's only one step above traditional deer management and is not trophy management. Studying deer in a pen is how every University or college teach our future wildlife biologist, the pen could be 1-500 acres deer social and other behaviors are the same in a pen or in the wild.

Some say deer should only be managed for population, i think it should be managed for population and balance, the way mother nature intended it to be, as close buck/doe ratio and an evenly distributed age class of deer you can achieve.

[PurpleFloyd]

Providing good habitat. That is a good goal for sure. Sadly in the area I live the habitat is getting removed at a very rapid rate by the reduction of CRP and the last few years by an unprecedented removal of tree lines, abandoned groves and other cover that the deer rely on for cover. Not that I blame the people for doing it because they are in it to make the most money possible and tillable land is more valuable than an old grove of trees or a tree line but you can't have a stable population with all that happening.

I am glad that the conversation has at least now moved away from the idea that it is making the herd somehow healthier and just cut to the chase that some guys want to shoot bigger deer. Convince enough other hunters that you are right without the government forcing it on hunters it and you will be in business.

[PEATMOSS]

I have a parcel available to me which consists of 640 acres just about 45 minutes south of the metro. About 50/50 ag vs timber. Great habitat. Problem is the local neighbors harvest every legal buck they can -

I really want to try to keep this thread going in a civil direction, but you just made made me laugh so hard my Diet Dew shot out my nose and all over my keyboard .

Let me get this straight, you have a SIX HUNDRED AND FORTY ACRE PARCEL THAT IS HALF WOODED IN SOUTHERN MN TO HUNT!!! You REALLY want to blame your lack of hunting "success" on your neighbors???

I have typed out and erased about seven really snarky comments here, but I'll refrain in the interest of civility.

[PEATMOSS]

Studying deer in a pen is how every University or college teach our future wildlife biologist' date=' the pen could be 1-500 acres deer social and other behaviors are the same in a pen or in the wild.quote']

Surely you can't be serious . That statement is just so brazenly ridiculous I can't imagine where you came up with it.

1- There ARE numerous researchers that study deer in the wild.

2- Deer, like ANY other animal, behave differently in captivity.

[Bear55]

I am glad that the conversation has at least now moved away from the idea that it is making the herd somehow healthier and just cut to the chase that some guys want to shoot bigger deer. Convince enough other hunters that you are right without the government forcing it on hunters it and you will be in business.

I think things are moving a little slower than most would like so that is why you see the push for regs. For whatever reason a lot of MN hunters just don't seem as ready for change like a lot of neighboring states. I think 3 decades of mostly bucks only has just been ingrained on a lot of hunters and in reality those guys aren't going to change. Several years back a great many old timers thought I was insane for shooting a doe and passing on a couple of 8 pointers.

I think MN will catch up somewhat but it's going to take a little longer. There is no doubt that passing up young bucks works, it is just IF a big enough number of hunters in your area are willing to do it.

[tfran123]

Sure, and glad you think it's funny. Spend half of my time up north and the other half on this Southern MN parcel. During the last 5 years I've tagged 4 bucks of 4.5 years old or older, zero came from southern MN. BTW: trail cameras run 4 months of the year don't lie, the deer aren't there. Go ahead, claim I can't hunt - think the results think for themselves . . .

[Bear55]

Yep never good to assume anything. I've got a few small 80-100 acres areas that always hold mature bucks. Other places I can walk 1000-2000 acres and whole area is garbage, not that you couldn't shoot a nice buck there if you hunted their you entire life but overall it just isn't a place you are going to find older bucks hanging out.

[Getanet]

Spend half of my time up north and the other half on this Southern MN parcel. During the last 5 years I've tagged 4 bucks of 4.5 years old or older, zero came from southern MN.

You've shot 4 mature bucks in the last 5 years in a part of the state where APR isn't mandated, but based on your post appear to support APR expanding. What more could you possibly ask for out of the area up north?

[Jameson]

...I am glad that the conversation has at least now moved away from the idea that it is making the herd somehow healthier and just cut to the chase that some guys want to shoot bigger deer....

Did you mean bigger racked deer?

Otherwise, here in MN, aren't bigger deer generally considered healthier deer? That is why I want some sort of buck management, bigger healthier deer. Fawns that are larger and more numerous. Year old deer that weigh 15 pounds more than they currently do. Two year old deer that weigh 25 pounds more than they currently do.

But, whatever, keep talking about the rack.