Question for Guides and Resorts

[maxpower117]

I have one question for any guides and resort owner/operators.

In a sentence or two, how would you rate the overall fishing experience this open water season?

I think there is a general perception that the fishing is very poor this year and was wondering what your point of view is?

[Troy Smutka]

Fishing has been great at times, and fair at times. As always, it depends on the weather. Our worst day on the lake, unfortunately, was for a tournament when we headed out into four foot waves and came back in six foot waves with howling NW winds and a nasty cold front. Early in the season, we caught fish of all sizes: below, in , and above the slot (12 to 27.5 inches). Lately, we haven't caught any below the slot, and the number in the slot has gone down. Lots of food in the lake now, so the fishing is tougher and you often have to troll blades or cranks to trigger fish that aren't feeding much of the day. In my boat, recreational fishing, tournament fishing, and guiding, we have averaged probably fifteen fish per day (worst day was two fish, best day was forty-seven fish) with an average of two slots per day (estimates, not hard data). That is with two to four people in the boat. Overall, not bad--certainly not as bad as predicted or as some of the doom and gloom stories out there. With the cooler temps this summer, far fewer tulibees and walleyes floating dead. Hope this helps.

[maxpower117]

Exactly what I was looking for and about what I expected to hear. Keep em coming.

I do have a point to make, but I want to hear more reports first to see if its consistent.

[maxpower117]

I should explain a little more. In really trying to figure out why the perception is so poor.

[northender]

I should explain a little more. In really trying to figure out why the perception is so poor.

The "perception" and reality by most is two different things. The ones with a "perception" that reflects doom and gloom for the future of the lake is reality. The proof of that is not debatable. I have pointed out the facts here over and over. I won't and shouldn't have to again. You simply have to look past what the catch rates numbers-wise are, look at the sizes of those catches, and look at the real biological facts, not opinions. If you don't know the facts, you get the wrong "perception".

[Troy Smutka]

The predictions of a terrible walleye season on the lake this year were probably based on the DNR's announcement that their test-netting was poor and their announcement that the walleye population in the lake was at an all-time low. The fishing has been better, this season, than the predictions many made on that information. Also, many heard the new regs with a two-fish daily limit and decided to go somewhere else where they could keep more fish. Conclusions made soley on test-netting are always a gamble, as test-netting can be a dump shoot. The late spring definitely helped the walleye population this year. Little netting success and a late "opening weekend" on the lake allowed most of the scarce smaller walleyes to survive, and allowed most of the eggs to make it into the lake this spring. If they survived the cold water, we could have started a good year class. No one denies that the population of walleyes in the lake is out of balance, with too many 20-25 inch fish and not enough fish under 20 inches. This problem can be corrected, I feel, with flexible, adjusting regulations each year. The political "trick," however, is those regulations adjusting each year for sport fishermen and netters as well. Without both groups doing their part, the lake is in trouble in the near-future. With all of that said, Maxpower asked how the fishing has been this season, and it has been better than expected and better than many people are complaining publicly. The future is up in the air.

[maxpower117]

The "perception" and reality by most is two different things. The ones with a "perception" that reflects doom and gloom for the future of the lake is reality. The proof of that is not debatable. I have pointed out the facts here over and over. I won't and shouldn't have to again. You simply have to look past what the catch rates numbers-wise are, look at the sizes of those catches, and look at the real biological facts, not opinions. If you don't know the facts, you get the wrong "perception".

Thanks for hijacking my thread and ruining future responses. I never said a word about walleyes. It is perceived that businesses have been destroyed this year because of your outspoken narrow view. Some businesses try and market their product/service around what they can provide, and not what they can't.

It's that negative view that will ruin many more businesses to come. Look at the Red Lake crappie. They marketed what they had, not what they didn't have and became successful.

I should really thank you for proving my point perfectly.

[Troy Smutka]

Maxpower makes a great point--Mille Lacs is not just a walleye fishery. Sorry, I assumed you wanted only a walleye fishing report because that is what everyone seems to be talking about these days. I guide and recreational fish, albeit to a lesser extent, for other species on Mille Lacs, and could give a report on those, as well, if you are interested in any of that, Maxpower.

[smackem33]

Max it seemed like Northender was answering your question and didn't intend to high jack the thread

[TruthWalleyes]

I think you ruined it yourself right here:

I do have a point to make, but I want to hear more reports first to see if its consistent.

Carry on.

[walleye18]

there has been alot said about ML's over the last 10 years.....dont want to "beat that dead horse anymore.

What can be said about the fishing, is that there is still fish to be caught....and like what was written prior, the bite was not that bad....better than i expected.

The lake's fishery is in total chaos in my opinion.

It will never be as good as it once was...and that is a shame...and We are all to blame for that!

[BrdHunter01]

Thanks for hijacking my thread and ruining future responses. I never said a word about walleyes.

[maxpower117]

Quote:

If you know anything about Mille Lacs it is all about walleyes! Whether you want to believe it or not Walleye is king here.

Red Lake was the same.

I did not want to get into what's wrong with the lake. I want to know why nobody is going there and causing many businesses to fail.

If any of you owned a business relying on the success of the fishery, what would you do to keep you business afloat?

Would you complain how bad it is and HOPE you can make it thru a few tuff years?

Would you do everything you can to make a living off of what you are given?

My point is that there are a lot of businesses that rely on that fishery to make a living who can't afford to wait more than a year or however long it will be to consider it a somewhat healthy lake and start making money again. There are a lot of people creating this perception that Mille Lacs is not worth fishing anymore and people's lives are being destroyed because of it.

I thank a lot of you for proving my point!

[walleye29us]

Are the resorts and guides having a bad year? I know the late ice off probably hurt a bit.

[northender]

The resorts up there are now getting what they knew was coming but instead of being proactive and forcing or at least fighting for change, they sat back and watched the whole thing cave in to where it is now. They shouldn't be surprised nor blaming anyone except the DNR and themselves.

[maxpower117]

The resorts up there are now getting what they knew was coming but instead of being proactive and forcing or at least fighting for change, they sat back and watched the whole thing cave in to where it is now. They shouldn't be surprised nor blaming anyone except the DNR and themselves.

You can't be serious. You're blaming the resorts for this?

[northender]

Yes, blaming the resorts and the DNR for sitting back and doing nothing to change the situation that was predictable in writing by veteran biologists 11-12 years ago. Now a few are fighting for change but now they have a situation that takes a major, long term fix as it got to far out of control so now it hurts their businesses. Once the courts ruled and the DNR gave into the Tribal plans, the resorts and everyone just backed off and watched the inevitable happen. The courts allowed for change if the DNR saw there was or is a need for change to protect the fishery. Everyone did nothing. Who else can you blame if not the DNR and the resorts for not fighting for change?

[Walleyehooker]

Sounds like the fishing has been decent but people are not going to spend their money when there is a 2 fish limit and a 2 inch slot and a very slim chance of keeping enough for a fish fry. Catching big walleyes is fun but that gets old after a while when that's all you catch.

[northender]

Sounds like the fishing has been decent but people are not going to spend their money when there is a 2 fish limit and a 2 inch slot and a very slim chance of keeping enough for a fish fry. Catching big walleyes is fun but that gets old after a while when that's all you catch.

[Walleyehooker]

Sad to see one of the few natural producing lakes in Minnesota going down the crapper. But history will tell you that not much will change till the lake totally collapses.

[Troy Smutka]

walleye29us,

I have had fewer trips booked on Mille Lacs this year than normal, and a lot of the other guides I have talked to have said the same. Resorts are stuggling, as are convenience stores and bait shops. As you mentioned, weather is partly to blame. The winter business for many, espcially snowmobiling, was shaky with most of our snow last winter being wet sloppy snow that came in April. No opening weekend due to ice, and a lot of cold windy weekends this summer have not helped. I have booked more smallmouth and musky trips than ususal this year, and even a largemouth trip. Those trips went well, and the clients that booked walleye trips were pleasantly surprised by our success, as they came up with low expectations. Overall, average to slightly above average fishing with below average business.

[maxpower117]

Yes, blaming the resorts and the DNR for sitting back and doing nothing to change the situation that was predictable in writing by veteran biologists 11-12 years ago. Now a few are fighting for change but now they have a situation that takes a major, long term fix as it got to far out of control so now it hurts their businesses. Once the courts ruled and the DNR gave into the Tribal plans, the resorts and everyone just backed off and watched the inevitable happen. The courts allowed for change if the DNR saw there was or is a need for change to protect the fishery. Everyone did nothing. Who else can you blame if not the DNR and the resorts for not fighting for change?

I gotta admit you stay true to your point of view. But I strongly disagree. I'm not interested in discusding whats wrong or how to fix it anymore. I'm in the minority so what I say doesn't go far.

I really like Troy Smutka's attitude about this. He's taking what he's given an doing the most with it and still keeps a totally professional attitude about it.

On the other hand you could bit!? and complain and throw money at the problem and give up on the lake until you win (or lose) the fight. And then what?

[northender]

I gotta admit you stay true to your point of view. But I strongly disagree. I'm not interested in discusding whats wrong or how to fix it anymore. I'm in the minority so what I say doesn't go far.

I really like Troy Smutka's attitude about this. He's taking what he's given an doing the most with it and still keeps a totally professional attitude about it.

On the other hand you could bit!? and complain and throw money at the problem and give up on the lake until you win (or lose) the fight. And then what?

[fishgutz77]

The health of the business that surround the lake is in direct proportion to the health of the lake it's self. As the lake goes so does business. This reallity was played out on Upper red with the crappie boom. The managability of the lake was lost in the courts, when the ninth court of appeals said the tribe could net. No DNR in the US could soundly manage this raping of fish during the spawn. On the other hand they have allowed certain year classes to be slammed by moving the keeper slot around. Leave the slot fixed so that fish that make it through don't get hit again just like this last move. Erie is still cranking out eyes and its almost the same thing except for the netting. Yes it's bigger but it's still similar. I still love it and will miss the Goose!

[northender]

The health of the business that surround the lake is in direct proportion to the health of the lake it's self. As the lake goes so does business. This reallity was played out on Upper red with the crappie boom. The managability of the lake was lost in the courts, when the ninth court of appeals said the tribe could net. No DNR in the US could soundly manage this raping of fish during the spawn. On the other hand they have allowed certain year classes to be slammed by moving the keeper slot around. Leave the slot fixed so that fish that make it through don't get hit again just like this last move. Erie is still cranking out eyes and its almost the same thing except for the netting. Yes it's bigger but it's still similar. I still love it and will miss the Goose!

The court did not say the Tribal side could net. They said they could exercise their harvest rights above state regulation as long it was done in an acceptable conservation fashion, with the well-being of the resource obviously in mind. The court also allowed for either party to come to court if one or the other was seeing the harvest methods and practices were not living up to that conservation threshold. Instead, the Mn. DNR chose to allow the netting, especially during the spawn, and chose to put sport angler rules into place to accomdate the extra netting harvest, that their own people, in writing, predicted a crash in the walleye population would be the result. The court you speak of, did not rule or allow anyone to harvest walleyes at levels and methods that would lead to the demise of a fishery and an economy. Read the court orders. Interpret the court orders. Make your judgment then about what should have been done differently the past 15 years and can be done differently in the future.

Your right, the business success correlates with the fishing. False advertising and promoting only prolongs the inevitable in this case. The doom and gloom should have been out there from the start and things would never have gotten this far. Now it will be a long down time before it can come back. 6-8 years at Red? When should we start? Now so the first good year can be by 2020? Even if the 2013 hatch somehow survives as the last 4 year classes have not, they turn 16-17 inches in 2018. In the meantime, if nothing changes, do your starving big ones being caught over and over again these days die off? If nothing changes, what is the walleye population like in 2016? 2017 and so on?

[walleye18]

What a sad deal. The domino effect and trickle down effect is being felt all around its shores.

I hope the lake does get better in the future. We all knew what was going to happen when the "bands" got the green light to net/spear....not to mention jocking around of the slots like was mentioned by fishgutz.

All I can say is - she was an awesome fishery....hope the old girl gets her luster back in years to come.

And like I mentioned prior - We are all to blame for the demise of this lake.

[northender]

What a sad deal. The domino effect and trickle down effect is being felt all around its shores.

I hope the lake does get better in the future. We all knew what was going to happen when the "bands" got the green light to net/spear....not to mention jocking around of the slots like was mentioned by fishgutz.

All I can say is - she was an awesome fishery....hope the old girl gets her luster back in years to come.

And like I mentioned prior - We are all to blame for the demise of this lake.

Yes and no that we all are to blame. If the netting and treaty harvest would not have been pushed onto us and the DNR, none of the current issues would have come into play. Without the netting, per the DNR biologists, the management of the lake, that had no previous issues, would not have drastically changed. So the base blame goes to the greed and spite of the small group of Native Americans that pushed for baseless, unneeded rights. After the fact, the blame goes to the Mn. DNR for agreeing, which they did not have to do per the court rulings, to a scenario that predictably, led to what you have now.

[Troy Smutka]

northender,

I share your passion for saving Mille Lacs, but some of your assumptions are not the facts you claim they are. Many resort owners have been fighting for change since this mess started, but they are in an advisory role and have no final authority on the harvest decisions for the lake. As a guide on the lake, I have been in contact with decision makers in the DNR multiple times with questions, respectful criticism, and suggestions, as I know many other guides and anglers have also done. So far, to no avail, but I won't quit or give up. We are kidding ourselves if we think the netting is going away. The treaty does allow for it as part of the harvest rights. The treaty, however, does have a section about the sustainability of the fishery, and that is the part the DNR must use, backed by science, to exercise power it has but has not been using in regulating not only the sport fishing harvest, but the tribal harvest as well. If all parts of the harvest are scientifically--not politically--managed, the fishery is sustainable. Finally, I am concerned about some of your statements that seem to accuse businesses on the lake of lying (false advertising). This thread originally asked for fishing reports for the lake this season apparently in an attempt to compare perception to actual results, future predictions not withstanding. Your predictions for the future may likely be correct, but so were my reports of the present. An honest question was asked, and I answered honestly and factually without inserting any of my opinions about the future. That was not false advertising. I made my honest factual report to answer the orginal question on this thread, now I will focus on hounding the DNR about more changes to try to save the lake. Hope everyone else who loves the lake does so as well.

[northender]

northender,

I share your passion for saving Mille Lacs, but some of your assumptions are not the facts you claim they are. Many resort owners have been fighting for change since this mess started, but they are in an advisory role and have no final authority on the harvest decisions for the lake. As a guide on the lake, I have been in contact with decision makers in the DNR multiple times with questions, respectful criticism, and suggestions, as I know many other guides and anglers have also done. So far, to no avail, but I won't quit or give up. We are kidding ourselves if we think the netting is going away. The treaty does allow for it as part of the harvest rights. The treaty, however, does have a section about the sustainability of the fishery, and that is the part the DNR must use, backed by science, to exercise power it has but has not been using in regulating not only the sport fishing harvest, but the tribal harvest as well. If all parts of the harvest are scientifically--not politically--managed, the fishery is sustainable. Finally, I am concerned about some of your statements that seem to accuse businesses on the lake of lying (false advertising). This thread originally asked for fishing reports for the lake this season apparently in an attempt to compare perception to actual results, future predictions not withstanding. Your predictions for the future may likely be correct, but so were my reports of the present. An honest question was asked, and I answered honestly and factually without inserting any of my opinions about the future. That was not false advertising. I made my honest factual report to answer the orginal question on this thread, now I will focus on hounding the DNR about more changes to try to save the lake. Hope everyone else who loves the lake does so as well.

In fact, the resort owners and all you speak of who have been fighting for change have only done so by complaining and complaining to the DNR but never have done anything, until some have this year, finally, to formally mount a court case against the DNR/Tribal fishery management. The Input Group, who I assume you are referring to, have taken zero stern measures to formally influence the situation. All talk. One formal letter. No action.

The statement I made about false advertising/promoting etc. was not directed at anyone individually, let alone you. However, it is not uncommon to read and hear reports from many that fishing is great and the fishery is in great shape. That is fine but unless one also includes the harsh reality of the condition of the lake and why, it is plain wrong. A local recently reported on the internet that "Mille Lacs is still the best fishery in the state". By not including the reality of the situation, in other words, what the "good or great" fishing actually means and shows, is not being forthright. Thus, creating a false and mis-leading impression. So yes, there are ongoing false impressions being created via advertising and promotion. Call it what you want but it is what it is. Name the resorts and guides that have taken formal action to fix the future of the fishery. The answer is easily found on the record if you ask the right people.

I surely didn't intend for my original posting to this thread go beyond what it was, which was simply making it clear what potential answers to the original question could and should mean to the viewers here. Others challenged my posting and kept me in it.

I will gladly go away on this one.

[maxpower117]

To add to Troy's comments, there is still plenty to provide as a fishery for businesses not to suffer as they are. This doom and gloom propaganda has taken its toll on the most successful of businesses. There does not need to be and exaggerated crisis for change to happen. It's only hurting more than its helping.

I do know that there are a few business owners up there that will push their propaganda at the expense of their budiness as well as many others.

I feel that is the crisis, not the walleye.