Pointers vs. Flushers for Upland Family - Grouse

[DRH1175]

As previously stated, aggressiveness in dogs has about 99% to do with socialization!! I have met several Pit Bulls that were gentle loving family dogs. I have also worked with several Golden Retrievers that were aggressive towards people and other dogs. Socialization is one of the most important things to a dog, more important than training!! My previous male GWP was a sweetheart to strangers and us alike. I do not agree with post by Ole #1.

[jjz]

One thing to consider is how much time you have to train the dog. Pointers usually take more time to train and flushers less to get a average hunting dog. As far as family dogs that is all in the parent dogs. You can get a great or bad family dog from any breed depending on the parents. Generally a well trained pointer is a better grouse dog, but if you only have time to train your dog fetch and come a flusher might be the way to go. Also the more you spend on the dog doesnt mean the ultimate hunter, but usually means good to great hunter and limited health problems. Health problems can be a ruin any great deal on any dog.

[ETH310]

If you want a black and white dog, get a black and white GSP. Seems like it's becoming a really common color for GSPs. For grouse hunting, make sure you don't get a dog from field trial lines. You're probably looking at $1000-$1500 for the kind of dog you want. Google Willow Creek Kennels or Sharp Shooter Kennels if you're interested in a black and white GSP. Good luck.

[setterguy]

I guess I would really disagree with not getting a dog from field trial lines. There are all sorts of field trials...would a dog that could run horse back trials be good in the grouse woods, maybe not. But there are walking trials, shoot to retrieve trials, grouse trials, you name it. I can say in all certainty that every good grouse dog I've ever seen has been "from field trial lines". Are field trials perfect? No, but it is a way to test and judge many dogs against their peers to see if your breeding is producing what you want. I've seen plenty of litters from two trial champions that has produced dogs of every personality, range, nose and drive.

Many field trialers will go through 10-20 dogs before finding one that is what they are looking for in a true trial dog. Those "washouts" normally make fantastic hunting dogs, if that's all you are looking for.

I would never buy a hunting dog NOT from field trial lines. Running trials is the only true way to observe first hand what you are producing for a breed.

If I was looking for a strictly hunting dog, and didn't know exactly what I wanted I would buy a started dog. Go see 10 different breeders, talk to all of them, see the dogs they have, ask to see the dogs in the field, and you are taking a lot of the risk out of it. There shouldn't be too many surprises with an adult dog. You will know when you see the dog you want to hunt behind for the next 10 years.

[ETH310]

I didn't think i would have to clarify, when I say bred for field trial, I meant in the traditional sense, as in, on horse back with dogs bred to run BIG. I don't know anything about setters, but if you get a GSP bred for field trials, the odds of getting an outstanding grouse dog are low. The OP would be much happier, in my opinion, with a dog bred to be a close working hunting dog and family companion. If "every grouse dog" you've ever seen is from field trial lines, maybe you don't know what you're missing??? I've owned both and there is no comparison. I would never want a big running trial dog because I'm not a trialer. You want the right tool for the job. I learned that the hard way. Field trials are not the "only true way" to evaluate what you are producing. There is hunt tests, NAVHDA, and others.

[Setterman]

I didn't think i would have to clarify, when I say bred for field trial, I meant in the traditional sense, as in, on horse back with dogs bred to run BIG. I don't know anything about setters, but if you get a GSP bred for field trials, the odds of getting an outstanding grouse dog are low. The OP would be much happier, in my opinion, with a dog bred to be a close working hunting dog and family companion. If "every grouse dog" you've ever seen is from field trial lines, maybe you don't know what you're missing??? I've owned both and there is no comparison. I would never want a big running trial dog because I'm not a trialer. You want the right tool for the job. I learned that the hard way. Field trials are not the "only true way" to evaluate what you are producing. There is hunt tests, NAVHDA, and others.

What do you consider a big running dog? My dogs consistently find more birds than most close ranging I have hunted with.

[ETH310]

It's just a different approach. Do you want a dog that takes off at mach 2 in search of birds and then you hunt down the dog on point to flush and shoot the bird or do you want a hunting companion that hunts with you to find game.You might find more birds, but I personally derive more enjoyment from option two. That's just me, and that's my advice to the OP. I don't want to highjack the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

[Setterman]

It's just a different approach. Do you want a dog that takes off at mach 2 in search of birds and then you hunt down the dog on point to flush and shoot the bird or do you want a hunting companion that hunts with you to find game.You might find more birds, but I personally derive more enjoyment from option two. That's just me, and that's my advice to the OP. I don't want to highjack the thread, so I'll leave it at that.

You might of had a run off or it was not trained properly. How can you say a dog that goes with you, at at mach 2, at a good distance, finds the bird, and then waits for you to come in and flush, is a dog that does not hunt with you? I spend time training and waiting all year to hunt I want to see birds. After a couple of weeks of getting shot at on the trail or from cars or four wheelers, the birds tend to go further into the woods. I would rather walk the trail and have my dog in the woods hunting than try to bust brush all day walking behind him. If I want to see my dog in front of me all day I will take it for a walk.

[raymondk]

yes

[setterguy]

Like I suggested to him, he should go out and witness first hand many different dogs, in different situations. Simple fact is, my idea of a good hunting dog might not be yours, and yours might not be mine.

Plus there is a big difference between, bred for field trials, and from field trial lines....big difference.

When someone gives advice to not get a pointing dog from field trial lines, because that's not what they enjoy its short sighted at best. And yes I consider NAVHDA events and hunt tests a form of field trial.

I have a difficult time with anyone who says - "Get a XXXXX, they are the best" "Don't get a XXXXX they are dump" I've never told anyone what breed of dog they should get, only given statistics, backed up by facts. Even then, I realize my idea of a good grouse dog is much different than others and I'm comfortable enough with my choices to be ok with that.

I've really never understood, the whole which dog is better thing, each one fills a need in the hunting world otherwise they wouldn't be around. Pick the things that are the most important to you and then look at the breeds that have consistently shown they can excel at those tasks.

Simple.

Now I suppose we could talk about why there are so many black and white GSPs around too.

[ETH310]

Setterman and Setterguy, go back and read what KING is looking for in a dog..."Family dog first, cute and cuddly, CLOSE RANGING"

-" How can you say a dog that goes with you, at at mach 2, at a good distance, finds the bird, and then waits for you to come in and flush, is a dog that does not hunt with you?"

Um, that's not what I'm saying. I want a dog that is going to hunt fast, hard, efficiently, and WITH ME. When I say hunts with me, I mean a dog that is concerned about where I am, as well as where the birds are. A dog that checks in occasionally.

-"I would rather walk the trail and have my dog in the woods hunting than try to bust brush all day walking behind him. If I want to see my dog in front of me all day I will take it for a walk."

I couldn't agree more. Nothing [PoorWordUsage] me off more than a dog that wont bust brush and just cruises the trail in front of me. However, again, I want a dog that hunts WITH ME, concerned about my whereabouts, working together as a team.

-"Like I suggested to him, he should go out and witness first hand many different dogs, in different situations. Simple fact is, my idea of a good hunting dog might not be yours, and yours might not be mine."

Yep, I agree.

-"Plus there is a big difference between, bred for field trials, and from field trial lines....big difference."

Ahhh, not really. If a parents is a FC, you can make a reasonable assumption that it's offspring will exhibit similar traits.

-"When someone gives advice to not get a pointing dog from field trial lines, because that's not what they enjoy its short sighted at best."

KING asked for suggestions. I gave mine. Because you don't like my suggestion, it's short sighted? When someone gives advice that it's short sighted to give advice they don't agree with, it's short sighted, LOL.

-"And yes I consider NAVHDA events and hunt tests a form of field trial." Of course they all test the ability of a dog in the field. But they all test for different things in very different settings. Referring to a AKC hunt test as a field trial, is like referring to a 7up as coke. How about we refer to a field trial as a field trial, a hunt test as a hunt test and a UT test as a UT test. It's a lot easier that way. I would never suggest KING go out and get a dog with out lines containing MH's and VC's. It's the only way to have a reasonable expectation of what you're gonna get. Look at the kennels I suggested he look at. They are not some joe schmoes breeding their half-a** dogs

-"I have a difficult time with anyone who says - "Get a XXXXX, they are the best" "Don't get a XXXXX they are dump"

So, when someone asks what kind of dog should I get, I should keep my opinion to myself?

-"I've really never understood, the whole which dog is better thing, each one fills a need in the hunting world otherwise they wouldn't be around. Pick the things that are the most important to you and then look at the breeds that have consistently shown they can excel at those tasks."

Agreed, like I said, pick the right tool for the job. For me, the right tool is a NAVHDA bred GSP and that's my advice to KING.

-"Now I suppose we could talk about why there are so many black and white GSPs around too."

We could, but should probably start a new thread. We've gotten a little off track. King specifically asked for no debates, just suggestions.

[setterguy]

The title of the thread was not, what kind of dog should I get. The title of the thread was simply pointers vs. flushers with his other criteria. You ET said "get a GSP". Never once, and never has my advice ever been to anyone to go buy an English setter, English pointer or Dalmatian for that matter. My advice as always is to do your research, look at data which comes from hunt tests, field trials, etc. gather as much information as you can and make your own decision. DO NOT base it off someones bias from the internet.

Now a couple corrections -

1.From field trial lines and bred for field trials are different. If you don't think so you then you should read more and talk to more breeders. Any breeder will tell you about breeding's where they didn't expect field trial dogs to come from the litter, but did, on the other hand expect good hunting dogs for them to sell. See the difference? Sometimes they will expect a trial dogs and get wonderful foot dogs, and repeat the breeding expecting (but not guaranteeing) the same results. This is one of the reasons that I suggested looking for a started dog...less chance of getting a flyer.

2. I looked at the websites you posted and found dogs from both of their breeding stock are from Field Trial lines, not HT mind you, Field trials. Says so right in their name 4X NSTRA champ. That is a field trial... So, contradiction there I think.

3. And yes, if you are suggesting to anyone anywhere on earth that they should stay away from dogs from Field trial lines when asking about a grouse dog, that is short sighted. Any dog person worth a dam would say the same thing. Would he ultimately pick a dog from FT lines? Maybe not, but to disregard a huge portion of breeding pool seems irresponsible when giving someone advice.

I don't know you, or your knowledge about pointing dogs, and specifically grouse dogs. I do know that when I see someone asking for information, they might not be as knowledgeable on the subject as you or I. When I read someone telling them to stay away from this or go buy this, I feel that is someone with a bias giving someone their opinion when that less knowledgeable person may take these opinions as fact. I don't think that's fair.

If you read any of my posts I always try and provide information, not opinion. Like I said earlier I think all dogs have their place, it really all depends on what he wants. Once he sees dogs in action his idea about what he wants may change too....

[ETH310]

Who cares what the title of his post is, read what he wrote. He asks for suggestions based on certain critera. I gave mine. Sorry if my suggestion ruffles your feathers. Just agree to disagree. I stand by what I said.

[gspman]

Nobody has defined what close ranging is and I guess it's all relative but it seems to me that I've had more grouse pointed when the dog is further away from me. A dog and human close together and closing in on a grouse = a wild flush. Too much noise and too much pressure or something else the grouse doesn't like. To each his own but I'll take a FT bred dog that handles nicely. All my gsp's have been from FT lines. It's what I like.

[TylerS]

Nobody has defined what close ranging is and I guess it's all relative but it seems to me that I've had more grouse pointed when the dog is further away from me. A dog and human close together and closing in on a grouse = a wild flush. Too much noise and too much pressure or something else the grouse doesn't like. To each his own but I'll take a FT bred dog that handles nicely. All my gsp's have been from FT lines. It's what I like.

I agree with you: A dog with trial or testing lines has a much better chance at hunting and bidability, IMO.

As for a grouse dog, the best ones are honest and don't crowd the birds, as you said. That's a tough trait to learn for some dogs, but the more birds they bust, the more honest they get. Up until this fall, my GWP was notoriously short-nosed. Makes for tough grouse hunts, but the timberdoodles make up for it

I think if you're getting a pointer, any pointer, for grouse, you just need to run it on the birds as much as possible until it figures out the game. Some dogs will learn things faster than others, but if you grouse hunt more than anything else, a pointer trained at least steady to wing should lengthen its nose after a few bumped birds.

Close range vs. far range is up to you. My dogs work relative to the cover. Open CRP, they're 200+ yards, combing the ground. Grouse woods, they're within 50 yards. Not my training, just their instinct. Heck, "close range" in September on opener for ruffies is probably inside 10 feet with how thick the underbrush is! As the season wears on and the leaves fall, I'd saw the definition of "close" changes a bit.

There always are exceptions to the rule when it comes to defining the style of a given dog breed. However, I've seen more small munsterlanders work "close" than any other dog, especially around here. They're a very thorough, good-nosed breed that I imagine would excel in the grouse woods. A small munsterlander put on an absolute clinic during Remy's NA test in 2011. That dog's nose didn't waver more than a half inch off a pheasant trail that was well over 100 yards long...and it retrieved the bird! One of the coolest things I've ever seen, and the dog was only 9 months old or so.

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent, but as others have noted, you can not deny the history of a setter for grouse. I'm a diehard wirehair dude, but even I will admit setters in North America have been bred for exactly that task. If you hunt ruffs more than anything else, want a pointing dog, and a family pet, I'd imagine there's a setter breeder in Minnesota who can hook you up (in fact, Minnesota NAVHDA chapter member Frank Spaeth has some amazing setters, including a Versatile Champion that aced the Invitational with a perfect score).

[KING]

Thanks for all of the replies!!!

We ended up with a English Setter...pup was purchased from a private party but comes from Bergs lines with Bergs Jack and Houstons Blackjack in the line. A lot of grouse hunting heritage in the lines. Did not end up finding a black & white but my wife and kids thought this guy was adorable!!

Lots and lots of quality options. Talked to a TON of great breeders.

I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the well established breeds from reputable lines.

Most breeders recommended having field trial in the line but not as sire / dam, this ensured quality in the line but being a generation or two out are likely closer ranging and better suited as a hunting / family dog.

Probably will take a trip to puppy school later this summer for training and be ready for some light work this fall.

[TylerS]

Cute pup King! Do yourself a favor and join NAVHDA or a similar group dedicated to training and testing dogs. From start to finish, your pup will change into a bird machine. I've learned more from the help of the people in my local chapter than all the dog training videos, books and magazine articles combined.

[harvey lee]

When it comes to pointers, then can hunt as close as you would like, just trian them to hunt close.

My English Pointer was a pup with great blood lines and in the family tree, lots of field trial winners. her blood lines were from Elhew kennels and she had everything a dog could have as far as I was concerned.

This dog liked to run and was very rangy but I had her to a professional trainer and he broke her of ranging so far. She would hunt as close as I directed her too or I could let her run and be rangy if that is what I wanted.

I would never be concerned about getting a English pointer for grouse or any upland game bird.

Many different breeds that will work for upland game if they are trained and worked with properly.

Is one better than the other, I would say my pointer was close to the best but so would many others with thier breed of dog.

All in the work done and in the eyes of the beholder.

I would agree to join a group like NAVDA, lots one can learn from others who have run into some issues you may also have.

[CaptainMusky]

Close range vs. far range is up to you. My dogs work relative to the cover. Open CRP, they're 200+ yards, combing the ground.

Tyler, i would love to see that. NO, I am not questioning you about your statement, just seeing a dog work like that in the field.

Im more old school and do not let my GSP range that far mainly because my hunting partners all have an attack because "I cant shoot that far". Well son, its not about how far you can shoot, let the dog work.

I dont get out as much as I used to but would love to see some dogs covering a field like that.

"Too Far Out" is all relative. I had a guy I used to hunt with who had terrible vision and my dad's dog wasnt even 15 yards in front of him and he was hollering for my dad to call it back. LOL

I kept telling him all his shouting was spooking birds and to just let the dog work and be amazed when he's on point and you can have it flush at your feet!

[CaptainMusky]

King, nice looking pup there!

of course the wife and kids are going to think they are cute. LOL

Just wait for the first time when it tears up something and see how cute it is. :-)

[setterguy]

King - our dogs could be twins. In all probability they are probably pretty close genetically. I'd love to see the breeding on your dog. As far as a house pet, the pups that Jack has thrown are some of the most personable, loving and well mannered hunting dogs I've come across. Jack was a special one. Good luck with that pup...

[setterguy]

At one year

[ETH310]

Congrats, that's a good looking pup. Good luck with him.

[harvey lee]

Nice action shot of the pointer on point.

[TylerS]

Nice pointer pics! Love looking at a locked up dog. Never get sick of that sight.

Tyler, i would love to see that. NO, I am not questioning you about your statement, just seeing a dog work like that in the field.

Im more old school and do not let my GSP range that far mainly because my hunting partners all have an attack because "I cant shoot that far". Well son, its not about how far you can shoot, let the dog work.

I dont get out as much as I used to but would love to see some dogs covering a field like that.

"Too Far Out" is all relative. I had a guy I used to hunt with who had terrible vision and my dad's dog wasnt even 15 yards in front of him and he was hollering for my dad to call it back. LOL

I kept telling him all his shouting was spooking birds and to just let the dog work and be amazed when he's on point and you can have it flush at your feet!

I hear ya. Not something that's very common, but I think it wouldn't be so uncommon if people just let their dogs do what they're supposed to do.

If you're a flusher hunter, I can understand wanting a close working dog. But I have a pointer for a reason. When Remy takes off, I don't want to say a word if I can help it. That means he can run wherever he wants, and I expect him to find a bird, point, and hold until I get up there to flush it.

My best friend is just like the guy you were talking about. Has a GREAT pointer, but doesn't trust him. The dog takes off and gets 50 yards when my buddy starts yelling at him. Drives me NUTS.

Let the dogs work. Who cares about bumped birds. Way I see it, that's training. If Remy bumps a bird, he feels bad before I have the time to holler at him. The next time he'll be more careful. It all works out.

[CaptainMusky]

Oh I trust my dog just fine its the guys I hunt with who don't own dogs who have the problem. When I hunt alone I met him range out big time, but the buddies don't understand how its supposed to work. For self preservation I just found it easier to keep him close than to listen to their belly aching.

[setterguy]

Tyler/CM - That is one of the main qualities that our trials looked for was adapting to cover. Our grounds were made up of open space and woods and the dog should be able to adapt to each type of cover. Its a beautiful thing when done correctly.

[Setterman]

Tyler/CM - That is one of the main qualities that our trials looked for was adapting to cover. Our grounds were made up of open space and woods and the dog should be able to adapt to each type of cover. Its a beautiful thing when done correctly.

Which field trial do you run?

[setterguy]

ABHA - American Bird Hunters Association, our group is (MBHA) Minnesota. Walking trials, with gallery. Very family friendly atmosphere. Trials are usually held in Milaca at the Four Brooks training grounds.

[TylerS]

Hey, that sounds like fun! Wish it was closer. What are the qualifications?