Gun laws/rights

[Black_Bay]

If anyone out there thinks this is some part of a master plan to totally remove firearms from the public then would recommend them taking a step back and rethinking the subject.

When our constitution was made was there:

1. Automatic weapons? No. Even now they are illegal to own but for a select few

2. Internet where ppl could buy what they want when they want at a moments notice? All firearms must be purchased through a FFL dealer. They are NOT sent to your home.

2. Were recrational guns made to look like military weapons? Recreational guns WERE military rifles. They were one in the same. BTW up through the Korean War bolt action rifles were used heavily by various military's including our own. They are vertually identical to hunting rifles. (i understand military weapons could have been used for personal use though)

Yes i believe the criminals get off too easy

Yes i believe the value of human life has been lost in society

Yes i believe we need more mental health help in schools

Yes i believe out litigious and medical societies try and find a reason, explanatino, & anwer for everything that usually results in nothing being accomplished.

.....but as a gun owner if you have bought XX number of guns and was limited to the amount of ammo you could legally have at one time per gun (similiar to special limits with fishing), dont you think that would help alot? No. It's not uncommon to shoot 100's of rounds at one setting at the range. Practice makes perfect. the scary part is of all the ppl that want to "stockpile" their weapons and ammo like fort knox just for the heck of it. if there are ammo limits, then there is only so much you could do with one gun at one time, right, if someone sees a person carrying more than 1 gun at time in a public enviroment there would obviously be questions to be asked. much easier to stop than 1 semi auto whatever with hundreds of rounds in pockets, right?

So you must be advocating some sort of tracking of how much ammo a person could buy. I'm sure criminals will follow that law too.

[swamptiger]

You might want to read up on some of the events leading up to the Revolutionary War. The British had the colonies vastly outgunned, but still attempted to disarm them nonetheless...

The British government was not, in a purely formal sense, attempting to abolish the Americans’ common law right of self-defense. Yet in practice, that was precisely what the British were attempting. First, by disarming the Americans, the British were attempting to make the practical exercise of the right of personal self-defense much more difficult. Second, and more fundamentally, the Americans made no distinction between self-defense against a lone criminal or against a criminal government. To the Americans, and to their British Whig ancestors, the right of self-defense necessarily implied the right of armed self-defense against tyranny.

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/american-revolution-against-british-gun-control.html

[amateurfishing]

Thx so much Eric

I hear alot the general public is mis informed...then whos job is it to inform the general public so NRA, its members, gun enthusiats, on a very quickly unbiased wide range scale to educate all of those that are mis informed and get it done quickly. Complaining bout first ammendment rights is not the answer, educating the lawmakers and ppl supporting them on why it is wrong needs to be done.

Maybe you are right, maybe i have no business telling a gun owner what they may or may not have. what if i have a gun owner with 10 guns and a stockpile of ammo in his garage, should i feel safe with that next door, maybe someone who could go awall or just likes to shoot stuff up. If he has as much ammo as my local police dept then i have a problem with that, he could be the nicest person in the world but bad things happen to good ppl every day.

I believe my examples matter greatly. Guns were not mass produced back then, they could not be purchased by anyone with a fake identity and stolen cc#, but i will step back on looks, no i guess that does not matter.

Can any gun owner out there tell me what they recommend or suggest instead of claiming that the amendment is not touchable? Are there any groups out there that support the "guts" of any of this proposed legislation but are going bout it completely wrong?

Are there any common facts regarding the horrible events that have happened regarding the shootings in the past 10 years besides non registered gun owners,mental issues, etc.?

I will say i do not understand the need (if u call it that) for high capacity quick loading magazines for anything related to recreational or hunting use.

I do really appreciate the open honest factual dialog.

[Scott K]

amateurfishing

Quote:

Maybe you are right, maybe i have no business telling a gun owner what they may or may not have. what if i have a gun owner with 10 guns and a stockpile of ammo in his garage, should i feel safe with that next door, maybe someone who could go awall or just likes to shoot stuff up. If he has as much ammo as my local police dept then i have a problem with that, he could be the nicest person in the world but bad things happen to good ppl every day.

I just wanted to comment on this part for now. First, who is to say that cop, or your local police station wont go awall, and snap? What, or who would be there to fend them off? Just because they are police, doesnt mean they are any different then the rest of us. They endure lots of stress everyday, and lots of them see shrinks, shouldnt this concern us a bit?

Secondly, 10 guns, and a stock pile of ammo, more then your police dept has. This really isnt a very big number. I own well over 10 guns, with plenty of ammo for them as well. Now, I am not sure hom much my local police dept has, but I cant imagine it is a whole lot. Maybe more, maybe less, to me it doesnt matter. In fact, just for checks and balances, I would hope that some people have a good amount more then the local law enforcement, it intimidates them (local law, govt)not to not mess with individuals.

And for one, you should feel safer that someone next to you is armed, incase you need protection, that is as long as you arent the one to break into his house, or try stealing his stuff.

[jparrucci]

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think this guy is a troll. Guns have been mass produced for well over a century. You used to be able to buy a firearm from the local hardware store with no ID. You used to be able to buy fully automatic weapons.

[amateurfishing]

sounds like i need alot more gun info.....

had no idea military weapons & recreational use ones would look the same, sounds like a really bad idea to me

i have not heard any ideas regarding educating the public or how to make society safer (and i dont buy more being the answer).....and maybe you dont need to since all you have to do is say its my 2nd ammendment rights.

i do appreciate ppl saying how they are law abiding and do whatever it takes to do their part for storage, training, education, regarding gun ownership, im sure that is very true and the media should be reporting that more as well.

Is there any way the NRA could be more helpful or positive toward general public communication instead of the answer "we dont need less guns, we need more"?

thx everyone, i appreciate the comments

[jparrucci]

Also, I can assure you living in elk river that you have a neighbor who has more than 10 guns and more ammo than your local police department. I just hope all of us gun rights advocates take notice of what we are up against. No offense to the poster, but if the general public is this misinformed, we are all screwed.

[amateurfishing]

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think this guy is a troll. CARE TO ELABORATE? Guns have been mass produced for well over a century. You used to be able to buy a firearm from the local hardware store with no ID. You used to be able to buy fully automatic weapons.

[jparrucci]

The NRA does much public outreach, especially when it comes to safe handling and storing of firearms. It is not their job to inform the public, it is the public's job to inform themselves. Although it is the best interest of the NRA to do what they can to tell the truth about firearms.

[Goose205]

I assume that the reason that he made the troll comment is because many of the other people have responded to almost everyone of your questions/comments with information to prove you wrong, yet you continue to come back with the same comments and thoughts that were just proven incorrect. To top it off, "your comment that more guns is not the answer" is laughable. Look at the major metropolitan areas that have gun bans, or harsh gun control laws, they typically have some of the highest crime rates in the country. Here is a video that gives you some more information to show that gun control is not the answer.

As it describes, violent crime increases as the gun control laws increase. So if you want to be in a country that has higher violent crime rates, then keep supporting gun control. I know that I sure as heck do not.

[amateurfishing]

Also, I can assure you living in elk river that you have a neighbor who has more than 10 guns and more ammo than your local police department. I just hope all of us gun rights advocates take notice of what we are up against. No offense to the poster, but if the general public is this misinformed, we are all screwed.

I would not say mis informed as much just what i think i know and no one to tell me different. FYI, what you may not understand is even though i may disagree, i am trying to help you out by educating myself, because as you put it, who knows how many more of me are out there. What % of population knows nothing bout them? Possibly more than we think?

Is there any possible common ground in any of this gun control agenda or does there even need to be?

I know nothing bout guns, maybe held/used them total of 6 times in my life from shotgun clays to indoor target practice, never actual live hunting or never a handgun.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

I would not say mis informed as much just what i think i know and no one to tell me different. FYI, what you may not understand is even though i may disagree, i am trying to help you out by educating myself, because as you put it, who knows how many more of me are out there. What % of population knows nothing bout them? Possibly more than we think?

Is there any possible common ground in any of this gun control agenda or does there even need to be?

I know nothing bout guns, maybe held/used them total of 6 times in my life from shotgun clays to indoor target practice, never actual live hunting or never a handgun.

As someone who grew up in a rural area, this is sort of hard to believe, because guns are a way of life for most rural folks, but I can see where you're coming from if you are from the city.

When I went to school, (more years ago than I really care to think about) firearms safety and gun training courses were offered as a standard part of the school curriculum, or maybe extra-curriculum - don't really remember for sure.

But it might be an option for urban schools to offer gun training and firearms safety through community ed or something..

[swamptiger]

Quote:

I will say i do not understand the need (if u call it that) for high capacity quick loading magazines for anything related to recreational or hunting use.

This is a faulty argument because part of the reason for owning a gun is for self defense. I have bow-hunted for deer and elk and have also done muzzleloader hunting, but that doesn't mean I would choose the same weapon for self defense.

[Tom7227]

The often stated claim that those pushing to ban certain weapons because they are black or the way the look seems a bit misinformed.

The concern is that with a pistol grip or a shroud on the front end the gun can be fired 'from the hip' - what some call spray fire. There are some who believe that this capacity is what accounts for the large number of victims in these events.

Many comments are posted deriding the folks who support these laws for their lack of knowledge about firearms and using terms like clip when they mean a magazine. But I think there is a strong parallel when people use the 'black gun' label without considering possible reasons beyond the color.

As for the contention that gun laws don't work - they do. Perfectly? No. But please take a few minutes and check out this report on Background Checks. It shows what I believe to be a significant number of attempts to obtain firearms that were stopped. The disappointing part of the report is the information about the number of prosecutions that followed. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/html/bcft/2009/bcft09st.pdf

[Getanet]

I know nothing bout guns, maybe held/used them total of 6 times in my life from shotgun clays to indoor target practice, never actual live hunting or never a handgun.

Hey, who knew Obama posts on HSO? Just kidding Amaeteurfishing. It's the end of the day and I'm getting squirrely.

I think what you need to know is that "assault weapons" may look like they're out of a Rambo movie, but in most cases they function no differently than many of rifles you'd expect someone to go hunting with.

[skee0025]

As for the contention that gun laws don't work - they do. Perfectly? No. But please take a few minutes and check out this report on Background Checks. It shows what I believe to be a significant number of attempts to obtain firearms that were stopped.

Sure they do stop some from buying guns, if you where to check you would find that the sandy hook shooter also attempted to buy firearms and was denied after a background check was conducted. He also used only pistols. So what they are pushing would have prevented nothing.

[Scott K]

amateurfishing,

Unlike some of the others on here, I actually respect you for coming on here and asking questions. Knowing that some here will blaze you for your concerns.

I am glad you are trying to take somewhat of an open mind to this. It really has a lot more about where you grew up, and how you grew up, do understand each others point of view. If one grew up in rural state, and grew up around guns, they want to protect their rights. If you grew up in a city, or never been around guns, you would think people dont need them.

Kinda like, I see no need for 8 lane highways, to many accidents on them. We should ban them. My town only has 2 lane roads, and there is hardly any accidents, no need for more lanes then that.

I know, bad analogy, but my point is, what is not important to one person in one area, may mean alot to another person.

[bobbymalone]

But it might be an option for urban schools to offer gun training and firearms safety through community ed or something..

maybe with the right training, the gangbangers will learn to hold their guns properly and hit their targets rather than bystanders.

[swamptiger]

Quote:

maybe with the right training, the gangbangers will learn to hold their guns properly and hit their targets rather than bystanders.

Or maybe with the right training, the bystanders could shoot back, and the gangbangers would think twice next time..

[amateurfishing]

i did grow up out of state in a very rural area in an anti-gun family. no big city near us, did college and next 10 years in chicago. ironically growing up in a very rural area where raising beef & pork for slaughter is the norm but buy a firearm for deer or rabbit was thought of as pure evil. been in MN since 98 & with each passing year am having a bigger & better passion for the outdoors. Do have inlaws who have tried to teach me the way of firearms but i completely lacked interest or knowledge. I have even enjoyed ppl talking bout hunting the past few years & would like to try it sometime if time, skill, and interest permit. Father in law owned several guns & a few uncles do as well, i never really understood the interest of killing but much more understandable to me now as i learn and understand the process & mindset of the hunt & the taking of a life when hunting & how big of a deal it is, how emotional, spiritual, etc it can be and not to be taken lightly.

I do respect each and every fact & opinion out there and some have already commented back & put me in my place today. Thx for all the commentary and i look forward to more comments.

[swamptiger]

Chicago - where only gangsters and cops can have guns - makes for bad juju...

Thanks for keeping an open mind, and maybe take a gun safety class or get involved with a shooting club.. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Scott K]

I agree, a gun training class, and a target range with someone that has guns, try target shooting, skeet. Hunting is just a bonus. First thing to do is to see if you enjoy shooting, and if you are any good at it. Honestly, if you like a little competition, bring some friends a long, try skeet. It is a blast. No pun intended.

Now skeet is a prefect example of guns and ammo. I have a couple guns, that I only use for skeet. Between my son and myself, we can go through 400 shells in a day. If you buy your shells by the box, you pay about $8-$10 for a box of 25. If you buy it by the case, you can usually get 4 boxes, 100 total for $22. If you buy 10 cases, you can get them for $150. You may think, why does anyone need 1000 shells, well, for one, it is cheaper to buy them that way, and if I bring a friend, and my son brings a friened, we can go through 800 shells in a day. Now this is not a normal day, I would say a normal day is 100 shells each. But when you get into a little stiff competition, you tend to go into many rounds, and have a playoff at the end.

Shooting pistols, is my second favorite shooting, I like to shoot a 9mm, because ammo is usually cheap, readily available, and I have bad wrists, and I cant handle many shots with a larger caliber gun. My son, will shoot a .45, or a .22, or we split the 9mm, but it needs to have time to cool off, so we usually will bring two different guns. We will play tic tac toe, 401, like darts, ect.. Not hard to go through a couple hundred rounds each in a day. Now do this every weekend for a summer, buying small quantities, could put a man in a poor house. If you buy 10 cases, you can save about 40% on ammo, and sometimes more, if you find it on sale. If you find a good sale, you try to stock up.

I will admit, I havent bought any ammo since summer, and I usually buy my ammo in January, but this January, you are lucky to even find ammo, let alone, a sale.

If you lived closer, I would invite you down for a shoot some weekend. But I will have to warn you, it can be addicting. Before you know it, you will be buying a couple guns, ammo by bulk, a gun safe, a gun club membership, it may seem like it is an expensive hobby, and it is only as expensive as you let it be.

[Scott K]

Some people get into rifle shooting, and do competitions, but to be honest, I think it is kinda boring. Unless you can do long distant shots, or some trick stuff like hitting a tac, or pounding in a nail into a 2x4, at 75 yards. Although, if you do this, please bring your own 2x4, and nails, dont shoot up the gun clubs posts. Also make sure the back stop can handle such stuff. At times, I will set up a bunch of small spinning targets, and chalk sticks, and speed shoot with a .22 at 40 yards. you get 20 shells, 1 tubes worth, and you see how many you can hit in 1 minute.

Then once you get to be a better aim, and learn how to shoot, and handle a gun, then think about hunting. With out practice, you wouldnt be doing the animal, your hunting partners, or yourself any good. My daughter, isnt a hunter at all, but she loves to come out and target shoot with us. Hunting isnt for everyone, if you dont think you will like it, you probably wont.

[amateurfishing]

Hey, who knew Obama posts on HSO? Just kidding Amaeteurfishing. It's the end of the day and I'm getting squirrely

i though the internet hid our identity

[sinkerswim]

amateur,

You are very similar to the facebook posters. you generate activity in open forums by your ingnorance and responses to people who have SKIN in the game. What you don't understand is that you galvanize those who are deeply involved. they are protecting what they consider is a given right. You like your hero Obama don't understand that you don't corner any animal unless your willing to be bitten. Any time you talk limiting rights given by our founders you in fact make people talk and inform others about what we have. The media and their constant diatribe about this issue tend to make people go look for more information. Thank goodness for the plethera of information out there (not from the ABC,MSNBC,FOX AND CBS)that can provide reasonable people with the "TRUTH". You and others should be thanked for re-educating people to the constitution and who created it and why!!

[Eric Wettschreck]

Thx so much Eric

whos job is it to inform the general public

what if i have a gun owner with 10 guns and a stockpile of ammo in his garage, should i feel safe with that next door

Answering the first question, it's the general public's job to inform themselves. It's also the legislatures job to be informed prior to introducing legislation. Unfortunately, as Tom eluded to, there is a TON of mis-information out there. A guys gotta weed through the muck and slime being tossed around to get the real 411.

Your second question, yes you should feel very safe. I'd actually be more leary of the neighbor that has 2 pit bulls, a boxer, and a doberman running around than the guy with 10 rifles and 1000 rounds.

[amateurfishing]

gunowners,

if the "masses" of our society are not gun owners, gun trained, gun literate, or have any gun knowledge at all, how are they supposed to become informed? (Remember i am trying to help the gun toting community even if i may or may not agree with it). If mass society thinks they know or have the correct info but really don't, how are they supposed to discover/learn bout it to change their minds? I dont see any pro gun organization out there trying to help its own cause other than the NRA & not sure if they r a great poster child for pro gun groups. Why arnt local hunting clubs, gun clubs, pheasants forever, or any other orgainization out there trying to educate the public and telling the masses not only is their perceived info wrong, but so is the gov'ts. The gov't is only trying to make changes cause that is what the masses want, right? the general public is not going to sign up for community ed gun classes (or seek an info out in general) if they think they already have the propper info. As an outsider of the gun toting community i think the gun community itself would do itself a great service by attempting to re educate the general public somehow via commercials, or whatever. I understand it is a second ammendment right & that should be the end of it but currently it is not and wont be for seeable future. Proper education of the masses and minds can change. Also, the second ammendment states "right to bear arms", i dont think it says anything about ammo, does it? if so, then as long as you hae the right bare arms, cant the govt do whatever it wants with ammo?

[Eric Wettschreck]

Couple things......The groups you speak of do a TON of education work. One of the problems with this is, lots of people will only listen to what they want to hear. Example, guy #1 hears something from Ducks Unlimited and immediately chalks it up as gun nut talk. Guy #2 hears something from a rep that introduced anti gun legislation and chalks it up as gubiment wants to take my guns.

Secondly, from what I'm seeing, the masses are in opposition to this legislation. It's a small, but vocal minority, that approves of this legislation. So I ask, are the elected officials really representing the masses? I think not.

Not to sound rude as I've been trying to help, but I'm starting to get the feeling that it really doesn't matter what you're told. You feel how you feel and are now fishing. I've learned the hard way that internet forums, and the comments within, actually help further the agenda of those trying to impose more restrictions. So, I'm treading lightly from here on.

[amateurfishing]

k, ill stop with the questions, just trying to learn and be more informed. i personally have not seen masses trying to stop anything. all i know is what i see on news. i apologize if i was sounding like i was digging in harder with the questions, not the case at all. apparently my head is in the sand on this one cause i dont see the masses against gun control or any good gun related PR. i was trying to ask questions and become more informed but apparently they are being taken as attacks instead of a thirst for knowledge. good luck

[Getanet]

I think Amateur's on to something here. I'll walk around my neighborhood this weekend with my rifle, knock on some doors and see if anyone of my neighbors would like to be educated. I'll report back!