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Scopes for ML's


harvey lee

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Yes, had a good day with the kitties.

I may be in the minority but I simply do not see what it could hurt to allow scopes.

The DNR decides how many deer they want harvested, not sure how a scope would change anything.

I can practice all I want but it will not make the iron sights any clearer at 75 plus yards. The scope would help for sure, thats why I use them on all my rifles.

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Muzzleloader season only accounts for about 7,000 deer in the harvest numbers, i doubt a scope is going to ruin the deer herd.

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The DNR controls the harvest to some extent. They cannot control the weather conditions or corn harvest either of which can cause changes to the projected harvest.

Allowing scopes would have the biggest effect in the open spaces of southern MN where the herd has been hurting for a while now with very few does permits available after the all-season license disaster. They now have 3x9 muzzleloader scopes calibrated out to 250yds. That combined with the extra shooting time early and late in the day (particularly on dark cloudy days) could become a factor.

I agree with others. Let's go back to pick-a-season and live with it. Hopefully it will cut back on some of the manipulations and abuses of "party tagging". If we are going to allow scopes on muzzleloaders, just open it up to all legal weapons for the area for the "B" (formerly muzzleloader) season.

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Why would scopes be a major impact to the deer herd in Southern MN, if the permits are already limitiing the number of deer that can be harvested?

Would scopes potentially make it possible to harvest more deer? Sure. But it surely isnt going to increase the harvest significantly.

And I know the rebuttle will be, "one more deer harvested is too many".... smile

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Why would scopes be a major impact to the deer herd in Southern MN, if the permits are already limitiing the number of deer that can be harvested?

Would scopes potentially make it possible to harvest more deer? Sure. But it surely isnt going to increase the harvest significantly.

And I know the rebuttle will be, "one more deer harvested is too many".... smile

To be totally honest I wasn’t even concerned of the deer harvest, it’s not about that and if I have to explain why then you really don't understand traditions that should be kept for certain things. I know that people will say if you want to hunt traditional then you still can so with that if you want to hunt with a scoped muzzy you can do that during file and shot gun season too.

Also and it happens now with shotguns that some people just will have to take that shot no matter what the distance is and end up wounding deer instead of harvesting.

Basically to many out of range shots will be taken, but this is not the real reason behind my opinion and like I stated its just my opinion

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Also and it happens now with shotguns that some people just will have to take that shot no matter what the distance is and end up wounding deer instead of harvesting.

I dont think there is anything thats going to change that mindset in certain people. No matter what the rules are... We have that subset of the hunting community that has the "shoot at all costs" attitude.

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Muzzleloader season only accounts for about 7,000 deer in the harvest numbers, i doubt a scope is going to ruin the deer herd.

You hit the nail no the head.

This is real simple, some just do not like it and you are suppose to hunt the way they feel the season should be.

Nothing would change if they allowed scopes. Yes, there could be longer shots but they would be better shots more than likely. People have always taken shots they should not so nothing would change.

On top of all of that, nowhere in the laws or regs do I see or have I ever seen anything about the Traditional muzzleloader deer season, I believe it is the ml season. Some seem to want to believe that is it is suppose to be or was meant to

Thats fine you want to call the season a traditional one Gordie, but I do not call it that and never will.

That's your assumption of what the season is Gordie. Others do not assume the same.

Why should everyone have to hunt the traditional way you would like too? It's not the law or the way the regs were written. Lot's of assuming again.

NO, I do not understand why I should have to hunt this way because you say it is tradition. Yes, I am confused and do not understand.

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Hopefully you all will get older and still want to ML hunt. In low light and aging eyes, open sights aren't as accurate as a red dot or scope. This would help the older hunters.

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The other issue I have is with my tri focals, very hard to shoot with open sights accuratly. To much blur with the iron sights. I am sure I am not the only one in this situation. The scope does help and quite a bit.

Has nothing to do with taking a poor shot for me as I will not do that. But, I would like to make an accurate shot at 75 to 100 yards and not shot and hope I hit it in a killing location.

At 75 yards, I can put the iron sights on a deer and have no idea where the bullet will hit as I am not sure where the sight is on the deer. I would rather not have to quit ML hunting.

With a scope on my rifle, I can easily make a shot to 250 plus or longer with my coyote gun.

The scope would help alot of hunters. To me, it only makes sense to allow them if for nothing more than a person making a much better shot every time. I am not looking to push my shots to 150 yards but I would like to take the 75 yard shot with a killing shot.

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So HL you keep saying that because I don't want scopes on ML that everyone shouldn't have one well the same goes for what your saying . Because of your failing eyesight it should be legal.

Do you know the reasons behind the rules not saying its a traditional ML hunt ,well that's because before the introduction of inline muzzle loaders all that was available were traditional muzzle loaders.

Another thing that was brought up was protecting the deer herd and I don't believe that ever mention that as a problem and it is what was brought up people wanting scopes maybe this not about the deer herd and actually a way to try and keep something more traditional.

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Noone has to use a scope if it were to be legal. One could use what they please, just like using an inline or a flintlock, hunters choice.

I never knew that the ML season was started and it was to be traditional, least I have never seen that in print.

I have no issue at all with you wanting to hunt the traditional way Gordie, I would simply like to use a scope as others would.

I have to believe there is a way for all to hunt the gear they please as long as it is legal.

Same thing could be said for shotguns with a rifled barrel or not, hunters choice.

We will simply have to agree to disagree as you would rather not see any advanced in technology and I would like to see it.

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Its the age old argument.... where is the line to be drawn to say enough is enough....

Seems the line continues to move...

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Its the age old argument.... where is the line to be drawn to say enough is enough....

Seems the line continues to move...

Yes where do you draw the line.

Thats like saying because I can't hit a deer with my bow at 35 yards I should be able to use a cross bow during archery season and while I'm at it ill want a scope on it grin.

I also don't have problems with technology .

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The real issue is how far to we take technology? We now have the technology to set up a remote controlled rifle that can be fired from anywhere. So when I get too old to go into the woods or tolerate the cold, I'll just use that technology and shoot at deer from the comfort of my living room chair. NOT!!! I actually hope I die before something like that comes to be. But in the end, it's not what we as hunters want or don't want, it's what the legislature feels is best for us.

In the meantime I'll continue to do like I have done the past two years and carry my ML with the open sights during both rifle and ML season. When I get too old to shoot accurately with open sights, I'll decide whether to quit hunting altogether or go back to just rifle season with my scoped .308.

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Your chances are much better with a compound bow than a crossbow at 35 yards Gordie. Much better.

I have no issues with crossbows. It gives those who cannot phyically draw back a compound or long bow to still be able to archery hunt with a crossbow.

I agree technology has come a long ways but scopes have been around forever, nothing new there.

I also will continue to hunt with my ML. I will shoot the best I can and let the chips fall where they may.

I talked with my State rep today and asked how he felt about this change, he said he was all for it. Others have told me the same thing.

But, you do not have to worry as the Dem's are almost totally against it. So, no scopes looks to be the program unless there is a big swing in the votes.

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I talked with my State rep today and asked how he felt about this change, he said he was all for it. Others have told me the same thing.

But, you do not have to worry as the Dem's are almost totally against it. So, no scopes looks to be the program unless there is a big swing in the votes.

I hate the legislators make these decisions...... How many of them even know what a muzzleloader is?

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All I can say is contact your representatives and voice your concerns know matter which way you view it that can hurt.

Oh and Harvey a muzzy is even better than the compound at 35 yards.

If it were legal would I put one on my muzzy ...most likely I would . I would just rather not have it as an option for that season is all.

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I have no idea what you are even babbling about Gordie.

I have no idea how more practice can make ones eyes see better. You must have special eyes.

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I would use a scope if given the option.

Where do you draw the line? How many of you that oppose scopes for ML still use a flintlock with a conical? Just like archery hunting, if you want to traditional use a recurve!

Bag limits and zones will control the harvest regardless of the method used to take a game.

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I say "No" also.

And I have a scope for my muzzle loader. I got it for out of state hunts that allow scoped muzzle loaders. And not all of our neighboring states do allow scopes as is argued so many times.

When mine was zeroed, I managed a 3 shot 1 inch group at 100 yards. With the drop compensation reticle, shots out to 500 were calculated (not recommended) into the reticle at the lowest power. Multi powered scopes make muzzle loaders a long range weapon. Period. And we all know they gather light and make low light shooting much easier. This to the point that you really do need to look at your watch to know if you should shoot.

I read the thread and see the same arguments as always but in my opinion the most accurate sentiments were the few that basically said:

A) "I want scopes to be legal because where I hunt I'm often faced with long shots/longer than I'm comfortable with because of __________".

&

B) "I don't want scopes to be legal because that will bring too many people out for the late season and I would just like to have some quiet time to hunt with a gun. So keep it more difficult".

Either point is valid but I'll wager the people who have some property locked down and don't have to compete with other hunter's access are more in camp A and people who hunt public property or rely on permission to hunt are in camp B.

I will also wager people who focus more on the getting are in A and people who focus more on the experience are in B.

Ask yourself and be honest. I'm in B for the land access part. I'm in A for the getting part. But B wins because if I can't hunt a good late season spot at all, I can't get.

2c

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I read the thread and see the same arguments as always but in my opinion the most accurate sentiments were the few that basically said:

A) "I want scopes to be legal because where I hunt I'm often faced with long shots/longer than I'm comfortable with because of __________".

&

B) "I don't want scopes to be legal because that will bring too many people out for the late season and I would just like to have some quiet time to hunt with a gun. So keep it more difficult".

Either point is valid but I'll wager the people who have some property locked down and don't have to compete with other hunter's access are more in camp A and people who hunt public property or rely on permission to hunt are in camp B.

I will also wager people who focus more on the getting are in A and people who focus more on the experience are in B.

2c

Well said

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Muzzleloader season only accounts for about 7,000 deer in the harvest numbers, i doubt a scope is going to ruin the deer herd.

When approached by those who wanted to start a muzzleloading season for the experience and challenge, the DNR was against it for fear of over harvest. After several special hunts to test the idea, they concluded that if hunters had to pick a season, a muzzleloading season could be held without negatively impacting the deer herd. The season was opened statewide. One deer any sex even in low population areas. As technology improved while staying in the legal definition of muzzleloader, and the dropping of pick a season, we now have had areas of the state (SW MN) that allow shooting of does by kids with shotguns, but not with muzzleloaders due to concern of overharvest by muzzleloaders. Lou C.himself has said that if increased harvest occurs due to scopes, the reg won't be removed, but instead more restrictions will be placed on what you can harvest, fewer doe permits, or other season modifications.

In other words you can use increased technology, but we will use additional regulations to protect the herd from over harvest. This has happened in the fishing world and hunting world. In deer hunting, buck hunters are unaffected, actually will be better off due to ability to shoot longer distance and get that buck at 150-200 yds or more. Those that like to eat venison, and can't travel elsewhere readily, have to deal with less opportunity to shoot antlerless deer.

lakevet

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Do you honestly think there a is a large population of hunters choosing not to hunt the ML season because they can't currently use scopes? LMAO! I doubt there would be any significant increase just if scopes became legal. The sport is growing in population regardless of the laws.

You forgot option C...

C) All of the above grin

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Hopefully you all will get older and still want to ML hunt. In low light and aging eyes, open sights aren't as accurate as a red dot or scope. This would help the older hunters.

We have had hunters into their 80's muzzleloading with open sights. Couple in there seventies at this point. Trifocals, etc,etc. never once did they ask for scope and actually preferred open sights. They grew up with open sights and have a lot of practice using them. Downright scary what they can do as they are very accurate. I myself am older and eyes are changing. Have one in our group who has a scope permit due to retinal damage, so we are NOT against scopes for those who have vision problem that a eye doc determines requires a scope.

Simple steps that always has been available:

1) Talk to your eye doc about it specifically. Highly recommend using one who hunts themselves. If you qualify for a scope permit due to truly poor vision that can't be corrected, use it.

2) Use a peep sight as the rear sight can be out of focus. Peep sights actually more accurate than other style open sights. Or try other styles of open sights to find one that works best for you.

3) Practice, practice, practice

Lastly..........get closer to the deer grin

lakevet

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One thing about it, if this does not become law, probably will not, then I will simply go to the eye doc and get a permit to use a scope.

I will not give up hunting and I will not wound deer.

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Lakevet, thankyou for the response. I did mount a peep sight last year, should be ok until regs change or not.

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My uncle does use a recurve but isn't the distance the same with a compound ? He's good to maybe 35 yards, you compound guys are you firing further than that ? The deal is ML hunt has always been scopeless and like my dad he used to choose that season over rifle. So he sees it as just the new wave of wanting everything in todays deer hunt. We shouldn't be having this conversation in a way, this hunt $$$ shouldn't be an option for us really, so since it is I don't want scopes on those already successful rifle hunters, area 240 most ML hunters in the state and harvest of course at the top also so outside of 240 I'm ok with scopes but within 240 forget it, I'm fully aware of 3 guys that took nice bucks rifle hunting and "party hunted" lol what a crock but found a tag for that, do I want them to have another advantage, the advantage they have now is our tagging system which allows them the ML hunt, they already along with others in 240 had great rifle seasons, if I hunted outside of 240 I'd likely be way ok saying scopes are fine for "unsuccessful" hunters but that's not the case for quite a few guys in my area and I say forget giving them another advantage as they aren't really game hogs they're kinda buck hogs. I never really get their ML report although they tend to shoot buck or does then because it's such a new season to them they want to pile up some ML numbers, deer that shouldn't be harvested, but skirting the tagging system during rifle is to easy.

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I don't hunt 240 so I don't know what is available for tags. If it's not a bonus area the three hunters that tagged bucks during the regular firearms season would be done. If they were party hunting it could be different story, cross tagging bucks is legal in MN. Maybe that is a law that should changed if you're concerned about the "buck hogs"?

Zones and permits control the harvest not a scoped ML...

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