APR's good for hunter recruitment but not for retention?

[deerminator]

I don't think it would be too hard at all. You ask when do you want the season every three years and give a few date ranges. Then every year, you ask by permit area, how many deer do you want the option of tagging (again the DNR offers the options based on what the deer population could sustain)and do you want APRs. In each case, majority answer wins. So long as you did permit area (and the seasons by zones), no one group or part of the state would dictate what the majority in your area was in favor of.

[Bear55]

APR would be a terrible idea in the NE. Many deer don't even get 8pts till 3.5 yrs or older! All areas of the state are very different and need to be managed accordingly. My party shot a 2.5 or 3.5 yr. old 5 point (basically a fork) this year that weighed 175lbs.! Would you want him running around breeding his genes till he dies of old age????

Generally speaking people for a statwide APR have never hunting a lotto area or low deer numbers and have no clue what is going on outside their small farm or area.

I wouldn't mind seeing a little APR, but only in those areas with high deer populations. Right now that isn't too many areas.

[muskE]

Again I say: I'm in favor of statewide APR's if only to avoid overcrowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in one part of our state.

It has been suggested that APR's will stimulate land owners to charge big money for land use. There are always people that will pay so hunting traditions will take a backseat to those with the deepest pockets.

I just finished my season in an APR zone and I counted 4 dead bucks (under legal APR limits) in the woods that I'm assuming came from the first shotgun season. There was also another 5pt buck in a moderate state of decay that looks to have been there more than a week. This is the second year I've seen wasted animals in the woods that were apparently left behind and not tagged which should have been retrieved (all were short yardage from snowmobile trails) and it sickens me to think the APR will continue.

The DNR counts are based on registered deer and not what's been left in the field which suggests thier management numbers are off. I know there are others left in the woods that were taken below the APR after speaking with other hunters that were equally disgusted. In the end, whomever shot these deer likely used the unclaimed tag to shoot another deer which further puts pressure on the herd population and limits the "traditional" zone even greater with fewer legal deer. Our group didn't see many deer and several were shut out, including me.

I'd propose to the DNR that they cease the APR until they get a better understanding of the true impact on all levels. If it does continue I'd like them to address the wasted deer issue via an exemption lottery or some sort to help protect the resource.

[hockeybc69]

Mabye you should report those deer to a CO for a little further action, rather than just throw up your arms about it.

[nonteepical]

why is it always the guys who don't like APR's, are the ones finding dead bucks all over the place, and their deer don't grow brow tines.

[tritonman]

I agree!!! If you find that many ILLEGALLY shot deer in a woods you should be reporting it! You yourself should be able to figure out who shot them! I hunt many different states every year and I STILL know for the most part who is hunting around me! Turn these people in! They are committing a crime! No excuse for that. Know your target!

[PropsterII]

Ditto. First of all I can guarantee you the DNR takes an estimate of these into account, as they do hooking mortality on walleyes on Mille Lacs. It's unfortunate they should have to, as apparently people just aren't very good at identifying their target. To use this analogy for being against APR seems a little shirt-sighted. It would be the same as saying we shouldn't have regulations about shooting bucks or does because you know it's just too hard to tell a doe from a buck. If a regulation exists it is your responsibility to make sure of your target. I for one believe that somehow allowing ( legislating if you have to, and it could be by means other than APR) bucks to mature before killing them is not only going to produce bigger bucks and more of them, it will definitely improve the age structure, buck:doe ratio, will affect breeding in a positive manner (less breeding done by 1 1/2 old bucks) and improve the rut action (more intense) that we as hunters would all like to see. And this is based on some pretty sound biology. Is the main reason I'd like to see it for improved hunting? Heck yeah! Who on this forum doesn't want that? And if you say I'm one who doesn't care and truly hunt for meat, then even with restrictions the does will still outnumber bucks by quite a margin. And if you're one of those who truly doesn't care and if given the opportunity to shoot a doe or a giant buck when they step out together, take a long look at yourself and pass that big buck in favor of the die - or admit that you enjoy it too!

[muskiemanAD]

Wow, you must have some people around you that should at first movement. That is a lot of deer to find in one season. I have a big group that hunts Whitewater and no one in my group has seen small bucks being left for dead in any of the past 3 years or have heard of it.

[muskiemanAD]

why is it always the guys who don't like APR's, are the ones finding dead bucks all over the place, and their deer don't grow brow tines.

Agreed!!

[hockeybc69]

I say show us the pics of all these dead bucks...

[96trigger]

Please do inform us of the area in which you are hunting and also the name of the state land. I will call the DNR for you if you give me the locations of all these deer. I'm assuming it has to be public land, because if its private, you should have done something about it years ago. Funny, the 1st year of APR, I heard of a lot of people that found the same thing in whitewater, nobody ever saw all these deer 1st hand, just new of somebody that new somebody that had. Now that things have settled down a little and people are much better at identifying their intended targets, I don't hear any of that any more. Surprisingly, most of the people I talk to really are starting to like APR.

[muskE]

I did my duty and reported it at the registration station (no cell coverage) and was told that due to the number of hunters they wouldn't be able to determine who it was and was "unfortunate."

I don't carry camera equipment in the woods as I carry enough stuff to have to worry about keeping it dry or from being smashed so it stays in the car. Besides, pics of dead deer prove nothing and only open the door for accusations. I got lamb-basted for even posting my observations and have been labeled as anti-APR and could only imagine if I had pics...no thank you. I passed 2 bucks with a visible 3x3 of good size that "could" have had bow tines at first legal light at a moderate distance. No confirmation, no shot. Maybe they were 8's but I respect my own morals and the law.

I don't know what to tell you but I've seen more "lost" deer in the past 2 years than ever before on both private and public land. This also supports the DNR harvest trends of low numbers in year one (didn't see any dead deer) and increasing numbers thereafter. Coincidence, maybe, but if you doubt me it's your right and you are certainly entitled to your opinions but I will argue you're shooting the messenger. I'm not against herd managment (quite the contrary) but I think the APR (while has some benefits) is too polarizing and clearly has faults.

Managing herd populations should be the key focus instead of managing for the vanity of a larger rack as many posts aluded to. We all enjoy this great sport for different reasons and should feel good about the regulations at hand. The APR clearly is challenging our collective mettle and with the numbers of hunters on the decline we need to remain united to maintain a strong voice against those that oppose the sport.

[muskE]

Again I say: I'm in favor of statewide APR's if only to avoid overcrowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in one part of our state....

I would agree money has something (not everything) to do with it. It always does...

You get what you ask for... From WEAU.com

Big Buck$ in Buffalo County: Local Hunters Getting Priced Out

More than half a million excited hunters are counting down the hours until the gun deer season starts Saturday morning. For those looking for that trophy buck, Buffalo County is proving to be the best place to be.

The county is responsible for 823 Pope and Young Club records. It has 94 listed in Boone and Crockett.

With Buffalo’s reputation for trophies comes record numbers of hunters willing to pay big bucks for the chance at those big bucks.

We take a look at how the price of fame is changing a way of life for a lot of locals.

Buffalo County, Wisconsin: 685 square miles of rolling hills, thick forests, farm fields… and some of the biggest bucks in Wisconsin. Some of those big guys gaining national fame; one made it on the cover of Field and Stream.

"This will be my 40th year of hunting," Scott Semingson tells us.

For four decades, Semingson has hunted Buffalo County. In those 40 years, he's witnessed first hand how times are changing.

"The first time I remember losing land is about the early 80’s when three people from Milwaukee leased the 300 acres for $500," he says.

Back then, Semingson and his family had a standing deal with the landowner. They got to hunt his land; in exchange they filled their cabin with food from his grocery store. With the deal over, this hunter hunted for a new place to hunt.

"I'd give him venison. I’d give him a turkey for Thanksgiving and it was good to go,” Semingson says. In 1991 or 1992, he says an outfitter offered to lease the land and the landowner gave him an option. “I couldn't pay $3000 for that land," he says.

Semingson's stories of losing land span decades.

In 1993, he and a dozen or so friends and family bought their own 187 acres for around $70,000. Three years ago, they were offered more than half a million. The majority said 'yes' and Semingson couldn't afford to buy them out.

"Unfortunately, the land prices are so high that a lot of locals, unfortunately, cant purchase it anymore and people are coming from the cities and the Milwaukee area," says Stuart Hagen with Investment Reality.

Hagen has some of the most expensive land listings on the Wisconsin Hunting Land website We found 22 acres for just under $90,000, 21 acres for $233,000 and 98 acres for $390,000.

There's no question what the buyers are paying for.

"People started to have a hunger for bigger, quality bucks and this county has them,” Hagen says. “Obviously, the out-of-towners who are buying the land up are not real popular with the local people because they are losing their hunting land unfortunately because of the price."

Realtors say the average price for prime Buffalo hunting land is $4000 an acre. Outfitters can charge more than $400 a day to hunt.

"That's why I do the outfitting. I have to, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to live here," says David Fredrickson with Dave Fredrickson Outfitting.

But with outfitting comes a reputation.

"They come here to pursue trophy animals, there's no question about that," Fredrickson says.

It’s a reputation that Fredrickson knows pits him against a lot of local hunters.

"It was bothersome. I won't deny that, but I am who I am,” he says. “I have pretty good knowledge of the white tail deer and it's always fun to bring people in and see how they react when they see some of the nice animals that we have to offer."

Fredrickson says since 1996, he's had hunters in from Arizona, Georgia, Florida, and all over the country. This year, we found a couple guys who made the trip from Virginia.

"We traveled 16 hours to come here and do this. It's been a dream of mine. I've always wanted to go on a hunt like this," Doug Williams tells us.

Williams didn't go home with a trophy after filling his doe tag proved problematic.

"I passed on a shooter buck this morning," he says.

But the Virginia man had no problem with the $2200 price tag on his trip; a price tag, Fredrickson has no problem defending.

"Yeah, $2200 seems like a lot of money,” he says. “People here in Buffalo County can't afford the land. The land has been driven up. I wouldn't say it's because of the outfitters. I’d say it’s just because of the deer hunting."

"Twenty-five acres of woods for $1650,” Semingson tells us what he’s paying to hunt this fall.

He’s leasing the land; something he never wanted to do.

"There were a lot of friendships, I’m sure that were broken because of this,” Semingson says. “I see the point of the farmer or landowner leasing it if they don't hunt it and I can see the frustration of the people that have hunted there for years."

But, for someone determined to hunt… and determined to hunt the big ones roaming near his home, Scott Semingson says deer season will always be the best part of the year in Buffalo County.

"There is no doubt I would prefer the way it was 20 years ago,” he says. “I would prefer that, but if I don't change with the times, I’m not going to hunt at all and I like hunting too much to much to not do what it takes to go hunting.”

The DNR estimates 8000 hunters will be out in Buffalo County on opening morning.

There is limited public land available to hunt there and the DNR says it does get hunted very heavily.

[lakevet]

You get what you ask for... From WEAU.com

Big Buck$ in Buffalo County: Local Hunters Getting Priced Out

More than half a million excited hunters are counting down the hours until the gun deer season starts Saturday morning. For those looking for that trophy buck, Buffalo County is proving to be the best place to be.

The county is responsible for 823 Pope and Young Club records. It has 94 listed in Boone and Crockett.

With Buffalo’s reputation for trophies comes record numbers of hunters willing to pay big bucks for the chance at those big bucks.

We take a look at how the price of fame is changing a way of life for a lot of locals.

Buffalo County, Wisconsin: 685 square miles of rolling hills, thick forests, farm fields… and some of the biggest bucks in Wisconsin. Some of those big guys gaining national fame; one made it on the cover of Field and Stream.

"This will be my 40th year of hunting," Scott Semingson tells us.

For four decades, Semingson has hunted Buffalo County. In those 40 years, he's witnessed first hand how times are changing.

"The first time I remember losing land is about the early 80’s when three people from Milwaukee leased the 300 acres for $500," he says.

Back then, Semingson and his family had a standing deal with the landowner. They got to hunt his land; in exchange they filled their cabin with food from his grocery store. With the deal over, this hunter hunted for a new place to hunt.

"I'd give him venison. I’d give him a turkey for Thanksgiving and it was good to go,” Semingson says. In 1991 or 1992, he says an outfitter offered to lease the land and the landowner gave him an option. “I couldn't pay $3000 for that land," he says.

Semingson's stories of losing land span decades.

In 1993, he and a dozen or so friends and family bought their own 187 acres for around $70,000. Three years ago, they were offered more than half a million. The majority said 'yes' and Semingson couldn't afford to buy them out.

"Unfortunately, the land prices are so high that a lot of locals, unfortunately, cant purchase it anymore and people are coming from the cities and the Milwaukee area," says Stuart Hagen with Investment Reality.

Hagen has some of the most expensive land listings on the Wisconsin Hunting Land website We found 22 acres for just under $90,000, 21 acres for $233,000 and 98 acres for $390,000.

There's no question what the buyers are paying for.

"People started to have a hunger for bigger, quality bucks and this county has them,” Hagen says. “Obviously, the out-of-towners who are buying the land up are not real popular with the local people because they are losing their hunting land unfortunately because of the price."

Realtors say the average price for prime Buffalo hunting land is $4000 an acre. Outfitters can charge more than $400 a day to hunt.

"That's why I do the outfitting. I have to, otherwise, I wouldn't be able to live here," says David Fredrickson with Dave Fredrickson Outfitting.

But with outfitting comes a reputation.

"They come here to pursue trophy animals, there's no question about that," Fredrickson says.

It’s a reputation that Fredrickson knows pits him against a lot of local hunters.

"It was bothersome. I won't deny that, but I am who I am,” he says. “I have pretty good knowledge of the white tail deer and it's always fun to bring people in and see how they react when they see some of the nice animals that we have to offer."

Fredrickson says since 1996, he's had hunters in from Arizona, Georgia, Florida, and all over the country. This year, we found a couple guys who made the trip from Virginia.

"We traveled 16 hours to come here and do this. It's been a dream of mine. I've always wanted to go on a hunt like this," Doug Williams tells us.

Williams didn't go home with a trophy after filling his doe tag proved problematic.

"I passed on a shooter buck this morning," he says.

But the Virginia man had no problem with the $2200 price tag on his trip; a price tag, Fredrickson has no problem defending.

"Yeah, $2200 seems like a lot of money,” he says. “People here in Buffalo County can't afford the land. The land has been driven up. I wouldn't say it's because of the outfitters. I’d say it’s just because of the deer hunting."

"Twenty-five acres of woods for $1650,” Semingson tells us what he’s paying to hunt this fall.

He’s leasing the land; something he never wanted to do.

"There were a lot of friendships, I’m sure that were broken because of this,” Semingson says. “I see the point of the farmer or landowner leasing it if they don't hunt it and I can see the frustration of the people that have hunted there for years."

But, for someone determined to hunt… and determined to hunt the big ones roaming near his home, Scott Semingson says deer season will always be the best part of the year in Buffalo County.

"There is no doubt I would prefer the way it was 20 years ago,” he says. “I would prefer that, but if I don't change with the times, I’m not going to hunt at all and I like hunting too much to much to not do what it takes to go hunting.”

The DNR estimates 8000 hunters will be out in Buffalo County on opening morning.

There is limited public land available to hunt there and the DNR says it does get hunted very heavily.

Sounds like a great place for a dad to get his kids started in hunting.....

Again the MN DNR says that APR's are good for hunter recruitment but not retention. I wonder how many locals just don't hunt there anymore, or have to leave the county to find a place to hunt with their kids that fits their budget that isn't a total zoo. And how many average Joes that used to travel there don't go there anymore........

lakevet

[zepman]

I can certainly relate to this article. Our deer hunting party has always been @ 12 people...this year 5 showed up...2 went home a day early. We have hunted on this land for the better part of 30+ years. It's farmalnd, hillsides and ravines in the Rushford area.

Over the last 3 years that land has been divided into parcels...sold for staggering amounts...fenced up and posted. We still have a good chunk of land to hunt but our access points have been all but taken away. The climate for us has changed forever with most of this group to never buy a deer liscence again.

The problem is we can't just go "talk" to our neighbors like we used to. Of the 3 parcels that were sold, all have out of state area codes listed on their posted signs.

So yeah, this article hits home for our party pretty well.

As for how does this relate to the recruitment/retention rate...most of the remaining guys hunting are 2nd generation hunters who all have boys and girls either in or entering their teens. I just don't see the 3rd generation keeping up the tradition that has been on this land for the last 30 years.

[Getanet]

I would suspect many of us would be challenged to keep the tradition alive. This was my 23rd year hunting public land (not Zone 3) and my father's 51st year hunting the same state forest. My grandfather hunted it for longer than that. Although it's public land, we have names for nearly every nook and cranny of that forest and feel a certain connection to the land. If for some reason I couldn't hunt there anymore, I don't know if I'd want to find a new "home." Deer hunting has always meant that same forest and I'd feel like a fish out of water hunting some other chunk of public land.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Welcome to the future of hunting! A very bleak future for the majority!

The horn porn group will push their adgenda across the country and eventually every chunk of land that can possibly produce large racked animals will be bought out, further funneling Joe 6-Pack and his hunting tradition into extremely over-crowded, trashed public sections of land.

Welcome to the Texas/European model of hunting! Only the rich man gets to play!

[monstermoose78]

that is so true drifter! I hate APR! If there was big bucks every where guys would would want it change it to 5 points a side and then 6. Why should someone have change for someone else. If you dont want to shoot a small buck then dont! If some guys wants to shoot a small buck so be it.

[Wanderer]

I can certainly relate to this article. Our deer hunting party has always been @ 12 people...this year 5 showed up...2 went home a day early. We have hunted on this land for the better part of 30+ years. It's farmalnd, hillsides and ravines in the Rushford area.

Over the last 3 years that land has been divided into parcels...sold for staggering amounts...fenced up and posted. We still have a good chunk of land to hunt but our access points have been all but taken away. The climate for us has changed forever with most of this group to never buy a deer liscence again.

The problem is we can't just go "talk" to our neighbors like we used to. Of the 3 parcels that were sold, all have out of state area codes listed on their posted signs.

So yeah, this article hits home for our party pretty well.

As for how does this relate to the recruitment/retention rate...most of the remaining guys hunting are 2nd generation hunters who all have boys and girls either in or entering their teens. I just don't see the 3rd generation keeping up the tradition that has been on this land for the last 30 years.

I'm leaving for this area in a few minutes and agree with zepman's observations 100%.

For those of you who feel like I'm a horn porn, elitist APR snob, that's not really the case. I've been posting in favor of statewide APR if only to avoid overcrowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in ONE part of our state. In my mind, if you had more quality throughout the whole state, all the money wouldn't be concentrated in one corner of it. We have great deer growing potential right here in east central MN but with the "It's brown it's down" mentality the deer don't grow up.

My good friend and neighbor has a great hunting spot right here in my neighborhood. They shoot everything they see. Back when they first started, 10 and 12 point bucks weren't uncommon to be seen around here. They are now. This group routinely shoots buck fawns and immature antlered deer every year. This year was a spike, 3 pointer and 5 pointer. One year I grabbed all the antlers of 5 bucks they had sawed off and held them all by the bases in one hand. No big deal to me, they're happy. But the point is, I'm leaving to hunt south instead of heading out with them this weekend because I'd like a better chance at an older animal. People travel to better places. Period.

We used to have a collection of farms to hunt in the SE that totaled well over 500 acres we could freely roam when we started hunting the area 20 years ago. We're down to 150 now and that could be off limits to us any given year when the landowner passes. That's the way most of it's going down there. The aging farmers who just wanted deer shot down there and were happy to give access to deer shooters are gradually being replaced by more people buying smaller parcels for big dollars and posting the heck out of it. That and sometimes the farm family has a son who gets hooked on QDM and won't let you even walk the property in the summer any more.

It's here to stay. My hope is that the demand gets spread out.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Keep it down there! You guys that pushed for the APRs can lay in the bed you made.

[Jameson]

...I've been posting in favor of statewide APR if only to avoid overcrowding and overpricing of hunting opportunities in ONE part of our state. In my mind, if you had more quality throughout the whole state, all the money wouldn't be concentrated in one corner of it. ...

Could be correct, but I don't think so. It's not the in-staters to worry about. It's the out of state folks to worry about. More of them will be able to lease up more of MN with statewide APR's. Without the APR's they don't have the additional incentive to lease here and will look elsewhere for their lease.

[leech~~]

That's the area we Turkey hunt in so I'm more concerned of the land being bought off for that reason, not big Antlers!

One of the things that makes good QDM is culling the inferior rack bucks out so they don't breed. I see all kinds of ratty little one horn or spike racked deer every year. I see no problem with some kid pulling the trigger on their first deer on one of them since they will never develop to anything worth while anyway! Lot's of deer ranches either cull them out themselves or have discount hunts for them to get them out of the gene pool. Why let their meat go to waste in an area they can never be shot in if they will never have the point count!

[psepuncher]

I always heard Canada was the best trophy place to hunt.

not alot of deer but there's some big deer when you see them.

Maybe I'm wrong {I don't think so}

but places that allow baiting do have antler restricions of some kind.

And they produce big antlerd deer every season. I think that might allow more retention.

Seeing what's out in front of you vs it running through the back slough and trying to get a glimps of it. I might need to start food plottin again. Haveing seasonal rentention on deer is the crucial key to herd management.

[james_walleye]

Interesting chatter since I have gained enough permission to hunt in zone 3 that I literally haven't hunted half of it this season. Maybe I'm just lucky. Or maybe I just create my own luck and don't spend my time on an internet forum whining about access and instead put the legwork into gathering access.

Brule I am sleeping in the bed that was made. Or maybe you could say living the dream. No problems putting venison in the freezer. More mature buck sightings than the past. I just gained access for next fall already on a new piece of property that is in area that some people say is "impossible" to gain access. So that's 4 spots in which I can take my son on his first gun hunt next year. Not sure where I will take him first....they are all good spots.

[Musky Buck]

And we can go lease up land in any state also.

[muskiemanAD]

Well said James. The things I have learned from the anti APR crowd over the years is. None of the bucks grow brow tines in the area the hunt almost eliminating the chance at shooting a buck. There are no does around to shoot. All of the land will be sold to outfitters thus eliminating all the land for the average Joe to hunt They are finding small bucks behind every tree left to rot because the hunter shot it with out identifying it first....

[Wanderer]

Yep, James, you're correct; one can still find opportunity if one looks hard enough. It's just getting tougher is all. I'm saying while typing via the Verizon hot spot at the farm. I just came back from one of the other farms I could only bow hunt before.

No deer so far. 2 does seen last night and 3 tonight but no shots taken. Success around here has been low this B season from what I've been told. Going in the camper now - I'm cold. Good night.

[96trigger]

It has been getting harder to gain access to land for years, land was getting leased years ago as well. There are still places to go and hunt. I shot a very nice doe with the muzzle loader today. I am going to sleep very well in my bed tonight.

[john skarie]

I suppose we should carry over these ideas to fishing as well. No walleyes, pike, etc. can be kept if they aren't a trophy. Who cares if someone wants to hunt and fish to eat and enjoy the traditions of them both, it's more important to be able to beat your chest about how big your game and fish are.

JS

[james_walleye]

Ahhhh yes. Another myth about Apr supporters. We don't care about meat and don't know the real meaning of hunting lol. Thanks for the laugh John....I forgot about that one.

This may be hard to comprehend.....but we do actually eat venison and fish.....