private land crossing question

[brittman]

I have found COs are often as confused as hunters on some of these more vague issues. It probably explains warnings vs tickets and cases dropped before court case begins.

Like I noted in my second post. Contacting the local CO and discussing with them is always a decent option. If you don't like his opinion persuade him otherwise with information gleened from others.

I will agree that small woodlots in southern MN are far different than expansive woodlands in the central and north.

[Tom7227]

Chances are good that it won't be a CO that is called in but a local deputy. Then you may encounter the home team advantage and end up with a ticket just so the deputy doesn't honk off a local. Given the facts as presented though I would still consider the chances of a conviction to be low.

[harvey lee]

Tom7227 you say

If the land that is private is not being used for agricultural purposes and is not posted the the general law of trespass applies. In short you have to be ordered to leave and refuse before you can be cited for trespass. Even then it may be difficult to convict a person without proving that the fence lines accurately reflect the ownership (fences could be off the lines). Another question is whether the person who is issuing the order to leave has the authority to issue the order - is that person the actual lawful possessor of the land? I would also argue that a person has a claim of right to get from one piece of public land to another. I would think the chances of acquittal are pretty good.

This is why we post everything. People try to sneak around and get in and then say, I did not know we were on private property. I hear it all the time every year. Why not just ask permission? Landowners do get tired of having to spend the money and the time to post sections of fence because a few seem to feel that unless they see a posted sign everywhere, then they can walk in. Then you have those who rip the trespass signs down and say, there was no sign there.

I use to warn people but in North Dakota I do not have to and now I press charges on everyone I can. Geez, all they have to do is ask but I guess that is too hard.

IOf everyone asked permission, we would have many less issues and the landowners and hunters would get along much better but since a few say, you can go on and if you get caught an acquittal.

I cannot believe you wonder why landowners say no with an attitude like your's.

NO private property should ever have to be posted, the hunter should ask permission. Wouldn't you want to know who is hunting on your land?????

In North Dakota, it's $750 for a trespass and I have charged every one I catch. Use to say please leave but that does not seem to work very well. Had to call the sheriff on a group as they simply would not leave. When the deputy got there, well, then they ran like little babies and thier mouth was not quite as smart as it was before the deputy got there.

EVery season I pull down deer stands as people put them up and do not bother to ask.

This year I found another and left a note. Notre said

Wish you would have asked permission to hunt on private property. Please remove your stand in the next 2 days or I will remove it from the tree and take it. If you wamt it back, you can call the sheriff's office and ask for it as they will be notified I removed it. When you call for your stand, you will also be charge with trespass.

48 hours later, the stand was gone.

To answer the OP's original question, ask the landowner if you can have access and if he says no, then I would talk to a CO or a peace officer to get the fatcs on how one may get there.

[Tom7227]

All I did was take the Minnesota law concerning trespass and apply it to the posted question. The law says that you have to be told to leave and refuse before you can be found to be trespassing.

I agree that asking permission is the smartest way to go. On the other hand it is darn hard in many instances to know who owns the land. In my experience it is no longer true that the closest farm is the owner of the land. I can remember spending nearly an hour trying to contact a landowner. At the closest farm farm I was told X owned it and tried to track that person down. The I was told it was sold to some dentist in Maine, who then leased it to another person 20 miles away, who was not home. Even when you have a plat map and a local phone book you can spend a lot of time trying to figure things out.

Not saying that's an excuse, just what I have encountered

As far as suggesting that a conviction was likely to be difficult, again I was applying my knowledge as a prosecutor. It wouldn't be easy to get all the essential elements proven beyond a reasonable doubt in my view.

[flyfisher03]

Concerning the issue of crossing kiddy-corner from public land to public land with private land in the other corners is this. Court rulings have determined that the property lines come to an infinite point. This means that no-matter how "exact" in crossing part of your body will cross a portion of private land.

Before crossing there I would talk to at least one of the land-owners, not just over the phone but arrange a meeting with them or pull up in their yard. Personally if I couldn't get permission I would walk the extra 1/2 mile.

[harvey lee]

All I did was take the Minnesota law concerning trespass and apply it to the posted question. The law says that you have to be told to leave and refuse before you can be found to be trespassing.

I agree that asking permission is the smartest way to go. On the other hand it is darn hard in many instances to know who owns the land. In my experience it is no longer true that the closest farm is the owner of the land. I can remember spending nearly an hour trying to contact a landowner. At the closest farm farm I was told X owned it and tried to track that person down. The I was told it was sold to some dentist in Maine, who then leased it to another person 20 miles away, who was not home. Even when you have a plat map and a local phone book you can spend a lot of time trying to figure things out.

Not saying that's an excuse, just what I have encountered

As far as suggesting that a conviction was likely to be difficult, again I was applying my knowledge as a prosecutor. It wouldn't be easy to get all the essential elements proven beyond a reasonable doubt in my view.

I will agree that it can be hard to find landowners when some own the land they do in the western states.Most times or almost always I can find a landowner by using a plat book. I agree there are the exceptions.

Thats the trouble with the trespass law in Mn, it is way to easy to trespass and not get fined. So people say, what the heck, let's go in anyways. It's no wonder many will not allow others to access thier land as they have been burned so many times.

I simply will not go on others land without permission, posted or not. They own it and I should have to ask.

[nofishfisherman]

I ran into almost this same exact issue 2 seasons ago. What I've found is that when there is land that is only easily accesible from private property one of the two landowners has likely laid claim to it for hunting purposes.

Thats what happened in my case. We talked to both neighbors to get permission to cross over 1 foot of their land. One had no problem, the other refused and tried to intimidate us and keep us out of the area.

We did gain access from the cool neighbor and hunted it opening weekend but had nothing but problems with the jerk bait land owner. He posted signs claiming the public land, tried pushing us out and surrounding us to make sure we didn't see any deer. My theory is that he didn't want us to see all of the violations he was guilty off bakc on that land. But we did see them and we did report them, although I don't think anything has come of it.

We've since moved to a different area, a lot less deer in our new area but also alot less jerk bait neighbor issues.

Moral of the story is talk to the neighbors but don't be shocked at their response either way. Even if its legal to access the land without permission its probably a good idea to let them know you are there. Rational people can figure out a way to coexist if they also plan to hunt the area but not all hunters are rational when it comes to "their" hunting land.

[brittman]

Concerning the issue of crossing kiddy-corner from public land to public land with private land in the other corners is this. Court rulings have determined that the property lines come to an infinite point. This means that no-matter how "exact" in crossing part of your body will cross a portion of private land.

Before crossing there I would talk to at least one of the land-owners, not just over the phone but arrange a meeting with them or pull up in their yard. Personally if I couldn't get permission I would walk the extra 1/2 mile.

MN state court ?

[brittman]

We did gain access from the cool neighbor and hunted it opening weekend but had nothing but problems with the jerk bait land owner. He posted signs claiming the public land, tried pushing us out and surrounding us to make sure we didn't see any deer. My theory is that he didn't want us to see all of the violations he was guilty off bakc on that land. But we did see them and we did report them, although I don't think anything has come of it.

We've since moved to a different area, a lot less deer in our new area but also alot less jerk bait neighbor issues.

Especially since you have moved on I would look to getting charges pressed against him. Even a civil suit or suit on potection of hunting rights.

[nofishfisherman]

I've thought about pressing the matter further but I've opted not to. My aunt owns property that borders his and the other cool land owner who has let me access his property has since become a friend of mine so I am a little leery of ticking this guy off any more then he already is for fear he'll go after them. The neighbor I've become friends with has already caught a fair bit of blow back just for letting me access the public land.

The jerk bait neighbor basically walks around life with a bad attitude and just looks for ways to take it out on other people. While sitting in my stand two years ago I could hear him swearing at his teenage grand daughter from a 1/4-1/2 mile away. The language he was using would have made a sailor blush. Thats how he treats his grand kids, imagine how he treats the neighbors. Sadly the best thing I can say about the guy is that he's older and not in great health any more. A lot of people in that area are just waiting for nature to takes its course. When that happens I'll move back into hunting that area. I've met all the other local landowners and the rest are some of the nicest most helpful guys I've ever met so I'm looking forward to hunting next to them in the future.

The ironic thing is that the only reason the jerk bait neighbor owns any of the land is because my grandfather made him a great deal on the land back in the day. It was land my grandfather didn't need and had little value to the farm at the time so instead of paying taxes on it he sold it very cheap. I guess the guy isn't big into repaying family favors.

[Tom7227]

Concerning the issue of crossing kiddy-corner from public land to public land with private land in the other corners is this. Court rulings have determined that the property lines come to an infinite point. This means that no-matter how "exact" in crossing part of your body will cross a portion omf private land.

I am interested in checking this out. Could you give me a citation to the case(s). Thanks.

Tom

[flyfisher03]

In my previous post I meant to include western states for the court cases.

[flyfisher03]

I am interested in checking this out. Could you give me a citation to the case(s). Thanks.

Tom

Do a google search on corner hopping and there is a lot of information that comes up.

[brittman]

Western states court decisions have zero bearing on Minnesota law unless legal counsel introduces this information in attempt to sway opinion in a Minnesota case.

State Laws. Western states approach this differently where the Feds own a rather large percentate of the state and often 40% - 50% (or more) of some counties.

Mr Lee: I believe the land you own in ND is in the SandHills and is interdispersed with National Grasslands. Couple in the fact that is within an hours drive of more than 200,000 people can create issues. Seems to me this is not the first time you have noted confrontations and problems.

I am not sure how you post your property, but if following ND statues is not preventing issues - I suggest posting at intervals of less than 880 yards, posting at key fence corners - not just the gate, and making sure any old fencing is fully maintained and intact or add additional posters where the there is a gray area. While it is the tresspasser that is at fault ... it seems like it bothers you much more than the people tresspassing across your land. Much of your headaches may be reduced by a little additional pre-season prep. This "work" should also help you identify a few new areas on your property where deer have been using.

[deerminator]

Geez, I don't even see why this would be an issue. Your body might hover over an inch of their land for a second while crossing. You're not hunting on there land or anything. It would be different if you had to travel any measurable distance over their land, as in, more than a foot or two even. I could see how technically it would be trespassing according to certain laws. But common sense and courtesy screams "c'mon!" As a landowner, I would have no problem if my neighbors on either side of me needed to step onto or across my land in such a situation on the way to their stand on their own land. Again, we're talking about technically being on a few inches of my land for a second or less. I am firmly against trespassing but what is the world coming to when you have to ask permission in such a situation?

[brittman]

Geez, I don't even see why this would be an issue.

Agree. But many a landowner in Minnesota (especially those that hunt) believe the adjacent tax forfeited property is for their use only. Some even try puppy guard WMA and WPA land. The only way these landowners can legally do this is when the "public" land is landlocked by private land with no legal easement.

When anyone owns land neigboring public land they must realized that hunters will hunt to the edge and hunters seeking best opportunities will push back into the deepest corners of the public land in search of game that is avoiding the public that want to hunt close to the truck.

With Google mapping and easier access to PLAT MAPS, savy hunters will continue to look for these hidden opportunities.

[dietdew]

Sorry Brittman, I don't recall the definition for ag land detailing what trees are considered a harvestable crop. I've covered the bottom quarter of the state working with no less than 7 COs who have answered the very question of wooded acres and trespass laws. All of which have answered the question the same way.

Maybe I misspoke per the letter of the definition you posted but This is the first I've seen a clearcut (no pun intended) definition of what tree is considered a crop.

The only forest land that wouldn't require posting would be forest or wetlands that were contained with in proximity to the ag land.

[LightningBG]

So, we know that a persons body would technically be "over" the private property while hopping the corner, but not "on" it, as in touching the private property. Is there any legal precedent for trespassing by being "over" someones property? I'm guessing not, because wouldn't all airplanes & hot air balloons be "over" all sorts of peoples land all the time?

Either way, I think corner hoping is and should be legal and wouldn't worry about it if you know where the corner is.

Harvey, I think your situation is a little different. Doesn't sound like corner hopping, but actual trespassing. As a landowner who's dealt with these issues, would you have a problem if someone corner hopped? (if hypothetically you had a hoppable corner?)

[deerminator]

Also, to add to my last post, I am very much against trespassing and the goofballs Harvey has had to deal with. I just think you have to consider what's reasonable here. If I need to step over and not onto the clearly marked corner of your land to get to public or private land I have permission to hunt for one or two seconds, then asking permission just seems ridiculous. I physically was never even on your land. It's ridiculous. I'm not doing anything to your land nor harming your chances of getting that big buck. I was never even on it.

And brittman, I get your point about hunters going deep into public land that is on the edge of private land. But even when we do this, I personally believe the considerate and responsible thing to do is to find the borders and make sure you are set up so the property line is outside of bow or gun range, depending on weapon. And I go even further and set up in spot where the deer would have ample room to bolt and collapse after the shot - so typically several hundred feet at a bare minimum, often twice that or more, from the property line. Hunting too close to the line and having to pretty much gaurentee you have to ask for permission to search for your deer on the neighbor's land is something I try to avoid at all costs.

[Bear55]

I'd just hop that corner and not worry about it. Kind of looks like the public was logged recently, that should give you a pretty good idea of where to cross.

[harvey lee]

Western states court decisions have zero bearing on Minnesota law unless legal counsel introduces this information in attempt to sway opinion in a Minnesota case.

State Laws. Western states approach this differently where the Feds own a rather large percentate of the state and often 40% - 50% (or more) of some counties.

Mr Lee: I believe the land you own in ND is in the SandHills and is interdispersed with National Grasslands. Couple in the fact that is within an hours drive of more than 200,000 people can create issues. Seems to me this is not the first time you have noted confrontations and problems.

I am not sure how you post your property, but if following ND statues is not preventing issues - I suggest posting at intervals of less than 880 yards, posting at key fence corners - not just the gate, and making sure any old fencing is fully maintained and intact or add additional posters where the there is a gray area. While it is the tresspasser that is at fault ... it seems like it bothers you much more than the people tresspassing across your land. Much of your headaches may be reduced by a little additional pre-season prep. This "work" should also help you identify a few new areas on your property where deer have been using.

We post all corners, gates and approx every 100 yards from sign to sign. On some of the gates, we have signs that are 2ft x 4ft in size. All gates are locked and paddlelocked. We post 3 -4 times more than required by the state of ND.

No all the trespasser are from the big city you speak of as the last 5 caught and charged with criminal trespass were local within 15 miles. All the trespasser has to do is rip a small corner of the posted sign and it does not even have to have letters in that area and then they can come in and they cannot be charged with criminal trespass. That's what the CO has told me in person as I am a friend with him.

All fence lines are very well maintained as the renters have cattle on this property.

Our land borders the Sheyenne national Grassland on the sotuh side.

Just the other day, Scoot from right here on HSO was hunting our land and he said he saw trespasser while he was hunting.

There is simply no way to stop them short of patroling the miles of fence with 4 wheelers.

Yes, it bothers me alot when you are out hunting on private land and then 3-5 guys come along and shoot a buck within 50 yards of a friend out hunting.

I do not understand why people, not sportsmen do this and then they wonder why some landowners are so negative about letting people on thier land to hunt.

I do let a select few from the area up there hunt as I know they can all easily follow a few simple rules.

We have had people shoot deer down the road and fire right towards the house. The local CO had to come out and set up a decoy and he caught 2 that same evening.

The stories go on and on.

Last week we were up for 5 days and I asked my wife how many came driving by the house as the road dead ends right past the house. She said a few came by and she asked why they drive the dead end road, I simply said to shoot a deer from thier truck.

[gopher_nation]

No all the trespasser are from the big city you speak of as the last 5 caught and charged with criminal trespass were local within 15 miles. All the trespasser has to do is rip a small corner of the posted sign and it does not even have to have letters in that area and then they can come in and they cannot be charged with criminal trespass. That's what the CO has told me in person as I am a friend with him.

I've always thought most trespassing would be mostly locals. If the locals can pattern the landowner it seems they would feel more confident trespassing. I've heard stories of this happening and when the landowner broke his own trend and showed up randomly he "ruined" somebody's evening hunt.

I put trespassers in the same category as thieves. Asking permission is the right thing to do and the owner may just offer you a better way to get where you are trying to go. Or not...

[Beast26]

Ok smarty pants. What does he do if he shoots a deer and has to transport it over the property line. Does he have to throw the deer over the line and then jump over himself? If the deer is too heavy to throw can he setup a pully system between two of the trees to transport the deer over the property line? Personally I would build a catapult.

btw I agree this should not be an issue if you know where the boundaries are located

[harvey lee]

I have done exactly that Gopher.

I had given permission to one guy to hunt. He called me and asked if he could go out to the ranch and hunt the east hayfield and woods and I said sure.

I just got a funny feeling that something was up so I drove there "575 miles round trip"and went right to the area he was told to hunt and wella, 5 guys with 5 bucks. Nedless to say he is not nor will he ever hunt the place again.

I try to switch off and some trips go from Thur to Monday and then another time from Tues to Sat to keep the trespassers on edge of when I am there. Not had much uck with that either.

I would have zero issues with someone accessing public land using our property line as long as they hunt the public land.

[Tom7227]

I did a google search on corner hopping Minnesota and came up with an article in a Wyoming newspaper. It quoted some official who said it was illegal but then went on to report that a person was acquitted in a court case.

So I have not seen any Minnesota cases on the issue.

I also went and read the ND statute on trespass, 12.1-22-03, and it seems to me that the essence of the law is the same as it is in Minnesota. So Harvey I don't understand where the differences that you see are. Perhaps it is more in the enforcement which is reflective of the property rights issues. Maybe it has sort of an urban/rural difference. Urban folks have a tough time getting excited about someone crossing a fence 'in the middle of now where' in large part because they haven't paid for or have any knowledge about 'now where.' Rural folks who have paid for 'no where' and own it have a much stronger understanding of it and stronger feelings.

Someone mentioned the use of Google Maps as a contributor to the issue of access to public lands. This is an area where I would suggest caution.

A friend owned some land that was 1 mile north of a county line. There was a fenceline issue with another landowner. I attempted to use Google Earth and Google Maps to figure out who was right and who was wrong.

The first thing I saw was that the roadway that everyone thought marked the county border was off by at least 25 feet compared to the Google placement of the border. It appeared that every fenceline was also off by close to that same amount which makes sense. Back when townships and counties were laid out things were a whole lot less accurate that what is possible today.

The second thing I did was to contact a friend who is a certified surveyor. He is young and skilled and equipped with the latest GPS assisted surveying equipment. He said that short of an actual survey with proper equipment based on measurements that start an official USGS monument it is impossible to know the actual boundaries of a property.

I am not an expert on property law in Minnesota and I don't have access to the legal data bases that would allow me to do the proper research. However, based on the things I posted here I would think it would be hard to convict a person of criminal trespass in Minnesota in a rural area short of a case where the state had a professional survey done to establish the correct boundaries in question. I doubt that many prosecutors would spend the money necessary to develop such evidence. I also have no found a case on 'corner hopping' that would convince me that a conviction would be likely in the instance that this thread is based on.

Again I am not advocating that anyone trespass, or even attempt to do so based on anything I have seen on this thread. I am simply saying that based on the law as I understand it, and on the facts and assumptions that I have available, that I believe a conviction is likely.

I would be surprised if a criminal case would ever result in a definitive answer to the issue. It simply is to complicated and expensive to get a conviction and then to appeal it to the point where a Court of Appeals or Supreme Court decision was issued. It is more likely that a civil property line dispute would result in such a decision since it is more likely that a civil case would be pursued to the point of an appeal.

[maddowg1192000]

Ok smarty pants. What does he do if he shoots a deer and has to transport it over the property line. Does he have to throw the deer over the line and then jump over himself? If the deer is too heavy to throw can he setup a pully system between two of the trees to transport the deer over the property line? Personally I would build a catapult.

btw I agree this should not be an issue if you know where the boundaries are located

Building a catapult on both sides as we speak so I don't have to worry...lol

[Dave S]

Harvey,

Just for clarification this is in ND, correct? This wouldn't be the case in MN. Thanks.

[Tom7227]

Again I am not advocating that anyone trespass, or even attempt to do so based on anything I have seen on this thread. I am simply saying that based on the law as I understand it, and on the facts and assumptions that I have available, that I believe a conviction is likely.

Typo there - I do NOT think a conviction could be obtained in the case as posed by the original writer.

[Bear55]

Building a catapult on both sides as we speak so I don't have to worry...lol

[leechlake]

I'm imagining the land owners reading this thread every day saying, "geez...I wish he'd call me and ask and I'd say 'as long as you hunt after the first three days of gun season you can access the spot over my land.' "