APR, QDM, Trophy Hunters, etc....

[BRULEDRIFTER]

- I am so sick of people comparing Iowa to Minnesota. The only part of Minnesota that compares anything remotely to Iowa is SE Minnesota. As many have stated there are so many differences between the two states its unbelievable(predators like bear and timbers, endless forests, shorter growing seasons, harder winters, and i could go on and on.)

-I love hunting Minnesota and am very thankful for what I have and we have as a state. I hunt in NE Minnesota where hunting can be very difficult at times.

-I don't want our state to turn into the next Iowa, its bad for our sport(high lease prices, large tracts of private land, TV shows like Lee and Tiffany, etc.)

-Dave T. Next time you try to pursuade you opinion on people, don't come off so brash. Take a more tactful approach, it may work better.

Well put!

[hockeybc69]

I do agree with some of Daves points. The delivery was a bit strong.

Overall, I think it was a bit over the top. We struggle with some of the points he makes, but I sure wont say deer hunting just absolutely sucks in MN.

Its frustrating depending where you are at... I will give him that...

[BRULEDRIFTER]

-I don't want our state to turn into the next Iowa, its bad for our sport(high lease prices, large tracts of private land, TV shows like Lee and Tiffany, etc.)

This is the biggest reason I will never support Antler Size Management (AKA QDM, APR, late seasons, buck lottery, food plots). (and the ammo it gives the anti's to continue their pursuit to end our traditions).

I grew up hunting public lands and cannot afford to pay some landowner the prices that will follow when lands get scooped up like in all the other "trophy" states. And yes, I know not all our public lands will be scooped up, however, a lot will and that will push more and more folks onto what public lands there are left creating even more crowded lands than we already have.

Sad times ahead for the future of deer hunting with this obsession over scoring the bones growing off the heads of deer.

[DaveT]

Let me apologize for my delivery then. Truthfully, I'm just having fun and seeing if I can change a mind or two in the process. We all love deer hunting and that's a good thing.

I love it when Big Dave joins these discussions because we are on complete opposite ends of this discussion. What fun would it be if everyone agreed with me?

Trust me though, if you go hunt in any of the states we've been talking about, you will come back home to MN and say "deer hunting sucks here".

Also, I was in Iowa 2 years ago and got permission to hunt on 4 different parcels of private land for free. The leases and outfitters exist but not nearly in the numbers you think.

[hockeybc69]

I have deer hunted out of state.

Its not apples to apples in any way.

Montana you are talking guys that own several thousands of acres each and much more.

On that land is oodles of cover, food, terrain change, etc.

We hunt Ottertail County, and good luck finding many properties that even approach a square mile(640 acres).

We have 120 acres, and in the area we are in, thats pretty average.

The simple problem(if you can call it that) is that properties are so fragmented.

If we had 5000 acres of land in Ottertail county locked up, I can assure you the hunting would be nothing short of Montana incredible.

So I wont say it sucks here. Because comparing MN to other states is a bunch of [PoorWordUsage].

Could things be better in MN? I think a lot of people would have something they would like done differently.

[PurpleFloyd]

I have deer hunted out of state.

Its not apples to apples in any way.

Montana you are talking guys that own several thousands of acres each and much more.

On that land is oodles of cover, food, terrain change, etc.

We hunt Ottertail County, and good luck finding many properties that even approach a square mile(640 acres).

We have 120 acres, and in the area we are in, thats pretty average.

The simple problem(if you can call it that) is that properties are so fragmented.

If we had 5000 acres of land in Ottertail county locked up, I can assure you the hunting would be nothing short of Montana incredible.

So I wont say it sucks here. Because comparing MN to other states is a bunch of [PoorWordUsage].

Could things be better in MN? I think a lot of people would have something they would like done differently.

Well said.

[PurpleFloyd]

I was just thinking if we just hi- fenced all of the land like they do in some places then we could keep all of our deer in our 40 and we wouldn't have to worry about what the neighbor in the 40 next to us does. We would just have to keep a good food plot going and we could just sit and wait for the right one to walk by and then take it.

[ANYFISH2]

Good point hockey.

I'm always on the fence with these ideas. I would like to see and shoot more large antlered deer, anyone would. These changes might make me, make differant choices some seasons. Although, I think these regs are for all intents and purposes, a short cut to the Prize. A shortcut that WILL make a otherwise good person into a criminal/poacher. For what, Antlers? Silly isn't?

Now, I think education of the benifits of passing young deer, shooting appropriate numbers of does, and overall respect for the resource is what will make the biggest difference. It just takes longer than alot of us want. Attitudes have changed a ton since I started hunting in 1991, they will continue to change going forward. Patience is a virtue, It will get better without making new laws/regs.

Thanks for the read guys!

[kern]

I have a couple of questions for DaveT. What type of deer hunting do you do(archery, gun, and/or muzzy)? Do you hunt with a group and if you shoot a "trophy" the first day of archery would you step out of the woods without any regrets of not being able to step foot back in the woods the rest of the season?

[bottom-bouncer]

I have a couple of questions for DaveT. What type of deer hunting do you do(archery, gun, and/or muzzy)? Do you hunt with a group and if you shoot a "trophy" the first day of archery would you step out of the woods without any regrets of not being able to step foot back in the woods the rest of the season?

Yes I could walk out of the woods for the rest of the season with out a problem.

[bottom-bouncer]

I think what most are not understanding is that you can do away with apr you could allow crosstagging we just need to move the season out of the rut. I like how people say dont compare minnesota to iowa are winters are tougher. not really but if you need that then i'll give it to you on the other side of that though is the fact that in minnesota we dont have things like the ticks or blue tounge and there is another disease that affects deer that I dont recall the name of that doesnt just kill of the weak or old deer it kills them all. Or another one of my favorites iowa hunters have a different mind set and let the young ones walk. Really! I am guessing most of you dont know to many hunters in iowa other than those pesky hunters from tv land. many many iowa hunters have the if its brown its down mentallity. difference being they are not gun hunting durring the rut. wich brings back what dave t stated at the begining of this thread it spreads out the harvest of the bucks (young and old). so that no one age group is getting destroyed year after year.

[kern]

More power to you and I'm not saying that is a bad thing but I personally would like to stay in the woods, not to shoot another deer but to enjoy it with other people. Taking away party hunting would take that option out of the equation. If I'm interpreting the argument correctly, if my buck is tagged, I would not be able to help anybody get a deer because I'm not a legal hunter anymore, correct?

[kern]

I have always been for moving the season off the rut, but again that is for bowhunting since that is my first love so in my opinion i want it moved for selfish reasons not for the herd management. One problem I have with argument is why nobody ever brings up the fact that a ton of button bucks and fawn does are shot every year(maybe it has but i missed it)? Wouldn't this help age structure just as much? Button bucks have just as good of a chance to grow into something big with time but nobody every seems to brings that to the table. People have no problem with filling a management tag with one of these deer. And a lot of people talk about taking does for the freezer but what if you are in a lottery area and you don't get drawn? In my honest opinion, nothing is ever gonna please everyone and the way it is, isn't horrible so if the majority of hunters are satisfied then so be it. I just love to be in the woods enjoying nature and after a long day, week, month, or year of hunting I come home with a basket 6, I guarantee I will be just as proud of that deer as the biggest one I have ever shot.

[bottom-bouncer]

You

More power to you and I'm not saying that is a bad thing but I personally would like to stay in the woods, not to shoot another deer but to enjoy it with other people. Taking away party hunting would take that option out of the equation. If I'm interpreting the argument correctly, if my buck is tagged, I would not be able to help anybody get a deer because I'm not a legal hunter anymore, correct?

You could still stay in the woods and help others you are still licensed for that year you just couldnt shoot anymore yourself.

[bottom-bouncer]

You will find that alot of us that are in favour of increasing the age structure of the heard do are best not to fill managment tags with button bucks.

[bottom-bouncer]

One thing that drives me crazy is the tag trophy hunter. What is a trophy? I would say someones first deer is a trophy. doesnt matter if they are young or old that first one is special. How about the person who has been gun hunting for years and decides to try there hand at bow hunting is that first one with the bow a trophy yes it is. If we to talk in terms of antlers being the trophy it still in the eyes of each hunter as to what is a trophy. For me it has to be 3.5 and atleast 130" or I will not kill it. Doesnt make my buck any better than the next guy who chooses to kill a fork. But the reallity is its a lot easier ti kill young bucks than it is to kill old bucks so untill people see the light things like apr and no crosstaging bucks are needed to help protect the young ones

[surewood]

Being called a trophy hunter would'nt be so bad if it was'nt demonized. Why is it made up to be so negative? I hate being called a Trophy hunter. I hunt mature bucks and does. I shot a mature deer this year that will score poorly. Did'nt matter to me, he was as smart as any 150" buck. Now if Trophy Hunter was associated with commitment, hard work, patience, persistence, and discipline then sure, I'm a Trophy hunter. Cause in most scenarios isn't that what it takes to kill (or the more sensitive word, harvest) a mature deer? We can have hundreds of laws to manage deer, but the only ones that can manage it, is us. Age structure is a problem and I would like to see a change, but not by law, by hunters making a choice. Now I'm guessing someone will comment about me not having stats and I don't know what the structure is. I don't need charts and graphs to know what I see every year, and what I see killed every year. I have enough info from my own, and friends, and family experiences to know we have poor age structure. Does that mean I hate MN hunting, NO. I love it, but there is always room for improvement.

[Gordie]

bash party hunting all you want but dont try and compare try to compare Iowa to Minnesota and how many record book bucks are taken they can party hunt along with haveing a early muzzle loader season and then a late season.

I remember the Days Surface Tension was talking about no doe permits and you were lucky to see a buck at all and getting 1 buck for 4 or 5 guys was really good.

[psepuncher]

I think what most are not understanding is that you can do away with apr you could allow crosstagging we just need to move the season out of the rut. I like how people say dont compare minnesota to iowa are winters are tougher. not really but if you need that then i'll give it to you on the other side of that though is the fact that in minnesota we dont have things like the ticks or blue tounge and there is another disease that affects deer that I dont recall the name of that doesnt just kill of the weak or old deer it kills them all. .

000000000000000H,

I bet Iowa is full of wolves too....Iowa's Record Book Bucks

http://www.iowadnr.gov/Hunting/DeerHunting/IowasRecordBucks.aspx

Like other states in the midwest Iowa produces some outstanding white-tailed deer. Abundant food and mild winter weather make it possible for Iowa's whitetails to become large in body weight and, if allowed to grow to maturity, often possess impressive antlers.

I'm sure there's plenty of ticks in MN. I was pulling off deer ticks along with mosquito's in early Nov.

Going back and looking at recorded data,

MN North woods have seen decimated herds from all of the above issues. Even in the 90's where 40% of them were killed by extreme winter severity. Last year, same thing but the % of winter kill was down only because the liberal tagging system in place.

It had little to do with wolves, actually poor habitat is the key here.

In our census area, wolves kill about 20% and hunters about 30% of the legal bucks, and of all yearling and adult deer of both sexes, wolves take about 15% and hunters 7% (Nelson and Mech 1986b; M. E. Nelson and L. D. Mech, U.S. Geological Survey, unpublished data). The northeastern half of the area includes soil of low fertility and poor habitat that has been protected from cutting or burning and has supported a relatively low deer density for decades (Mech and Karns 1977, Nelson and Mech 1981). In such an area, wolves and hunters would probably compete more for the relatively few deer, which may explain the stronger relationship between size of the wolf population and deer harvest.

So I get it, harvest more does to support more bucks. It may work but even after rutting and they're weekend again and again. Your all going to need a rebuiding health plan for bucks. Try figuring out a correct way to sustain them, as the habitat will need restructuring a bunch.

good luck

[PurpleFloyd]

I think what most are not understanding is that you can do away with apr you could allow crosstagging we just need to move the season out of the rut. I like how people say dont compare minnesota to iowa are winters are tougher. not really but if you need that then i'll give it to you on the other side of that though is the fact that in minnesota we dont have things like the ticks or blue tounge and there is another disease that affects deer that I dont recall the name of that doesnt just kill of the weak or old deer it kills them all. Or another one of my favorites iowa hunters have a different mind set and let the young ones walk. Really! I am guessing most of you dont know to many hunters in iowa other than those pesky hunters from tv land. many many iowa hunters have the if its brown its down mentallity. difference being they are not gun hunting durring the rut. wich brings back what dave t stated at the begining of this thread it spreads out the harvest of the bucks (young and old). so that no one age group is getting destroyed year after year.

Are you proposing moving the whole state to a later date or just a certain geographic area?

What are you going to do with the pheasant hunters who won't be able to hunt some of the prime time because of the deer season being moved?

Have you hunted over the entire state of just a small area?

[james_walleye]

I don't get this arguement. It doesn't seem to be a problem in other states. I've pheasant hunted during MN slug seasons before with no problem. Why would it be an issue a couple weeks later?? You make it sound as though pheasant season shuts down during gun season.......

[mntatonka]

One thing that drives me crazy is the tag trophy hunter. What is a trophy? I would say someones first deer is a trophy. doesnt matter if they are young or old that first one is special. How about the person who has been gun hunting for years and decides to try there hand at bow hunting is that first one with the bow a trophy yes it is. If we to talk in terms of antlers being the trophy it still in the eyes of each hunter as to what is a trophy. For me it has to be 3.5 and atleast 130" or I will not kill it. Doesnt make my buck any better than the next guy who chooses to kill a fork. But the reallity is its a lot easier ti kill young bucks than it is to kill old bucks so untill people see the light things like apr and no crosstaging bucks are needed to help protect the young ones

I would say every deer harvested is a trophy and a gift from nature, whether it's got a million inches of antler, or antlerless.

[kern]

I think it is kinda funny when this argument gets going. "Trophy" hunters think that they are the only ones in the woods the are patient, determined, persistent, and so on, really? I'm not a rack hunter by any means but I pass on average 7-12 bucks a year with my bow knowing that the vast majority of them are going to be dead on opening day of gun so i usually sit until the week before slug then shoot a smaller deer not considered a "trophy" by some but to me he is. So am i not putting the work in, am i not dedicated to the sport? Feels to me i am not any less patience than a "trophy" hunter but I also know the circumstances and harvest something I am proud of. I get sick of deer hunting being measures in inches because people make it sound like I'm not a good hunter unless I shoot 3-10 150 inch bucks a year. I will keep party hunting not to kill a bunch of deer but to have fun and i will continue to shoot whatever I feel like shooting because for me, my success isn't measure by a piece of bone, I measure it by how much fun I had and the memories I have made along the way.

[96trigger]

Everybody's idea of a trophy is different. I actually think about this and how others feel about their hunting experience. I hunt in zone 3 where there is APR, I think we are definitely seeing an increase in mature deer. This year both my brother and I shot nice bucks, two of my cousins shot nice mature bucks. We had two people miss nice mature bucks. I often hear of people thinking about limiting the buck tags, or making someone purchase a trophy tag. As I was in the stand, I was trying to think outside the box. Why not let people who think any deer is a trophy be the ones to buy the trophy tag? Most of you will agree that the easiest deer to kill during the rut is the young buck. They come freely to calls and often without caution. If that would be a "trophy" to you, you could spend the extra money before the season and buy the trophy tag. Might cost an extra $50 but you would be able to shoot your "trophy" and not have to count points.

I'm not looking for a huge discussion on it. However, I can see both sides of the APR thing. I like that we are starting to see an increase in mature bucks already. But I understand that some people have short time spans and want to shoot any deer. I know some are going to think that its a horrible idea, but a lot of people like to bicker about whats good and whats bad, but nobody wants to try and think outside of the box and come up with solutions and compromises.

Also, I would never be for any type of restriction in anything less than a managed area. I think most people on here would agree to that. Lottery and hunters choice areas would not have any new regs.

[kern]

For me it has to be 3.5 and atleast 130" or I will not kill it.

So what if I said 130" is not a "trophy" and you shouldn't kill anything under 150"

I just don't understand why people can't agree to disagree? I really don't care what people want to kill if it is done within the laws and they use the deer. If they start shooting everything in sight just to kill it, that on the other hand is a problem for me. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to my side but don't try and tell me what is right for me or what should be a "trophy" in my eyes. Once again, I hunt for memories and the fun of being in the woods, not for bones.

[96trigger]

Quote:

I think it is kinda funny when this argument gets going. "Trophy" hunters think that they are the only ones in the woods the are patient, determined, persistent, and so on, really? I'm not a rack hunter by any means but I pass on average 7-12 bucks a year with my bow knowing that the vast majority of them are going to be dead on opening day of gun so i usually sit until the week before slug then shoot a smaller deer not considered a "trophy" by some but to me he is. So am i not putting the work in, am i not dedicated to the sport? Feels to me i am not any less patience than a "trophy" hunter but I also know the circumstances and harvest something I am proud of. I get sick of deer hunting being measures in inches because people make it sound like I'm not a good hunter unless I shoot 3-10 150 inch bucks a year. I will keep party hunting not to kill a bunch of deer but to have fun and i will continue to shoot whatever I feel like shooting because for me, my success isn't measure by a piece of bone, I measure it by how much fun I had and the memories I have made along the way.

Hard truth, no, you were not patient. I would rather not shoot a buck than shoot a small one. Nobody on here is saying that you should shoot 3-10 150 inch bucks a year, which is absurd anyway. It would be nice to shoot one every 3-5 years though. It would be nice to at least have a chance at harvesting one on a yearly basis.

edit: I would not consider a 130 inch buck small or immature.

[Surface Tension]

I with a lot of you.

I don't like putting hunters into any category and for sure when it is done in a demeaning way to pit one against the other.

As far as party hunting. I think a lot of assumptions are being made that everyone is being filled out with bucks.

Some of you are letting your imaginations and fears run wild.

I haven't hunted in a group for some time, still I'd like to see party hunting continue.

From what I'm reading here some members have the notion that a large majority of bucks are harvested.

The data is there that we take 1/5th of total deer with 50% of that bucks.

That comes down to 1/10th of bucks harvested. In other words 1 buck taken for every 10.

Take 200 bucks out of a population of 5000 deer.

Lets say out of that 5000 deer there are 2000 bucks of all ages.

What would happen if those 200 bucks taken were 1.5 years old?

Obviously there would be 1800 bucks left.

The 5, 4,3, 2 year old, and bucks fawns are still there.

Now take 200 fawn bucks. You still have 1800 bucks left.

Even if you targeted one year class it seems to be a drop in the bucket.

The way our regs are written now, take 200 bucks of all ages. You still have 1800 bucks left.

I think a lot of you are underestimating the true nature of a mature white tale buck.

He does not want to be seen and hes good at it keeping hid.

Change the season out of the rut and there will be more 1.5 year olds taken because the mature buck isn't going to make that mistake. You know those 9 bucks out of 10 that don't get seen.

[kern]

So hunting on average 4 or 5 days a week for a month and a half isn't patient, WOW! This is the problem i have with the "trophy" hunting mentality, and why I think people get frustrated is that "trophy" hunters think they are better than the rest of the hunters in the woods! And the 130" comment was supposed to be a quote from above. So back to my question on that, you think a 130 inch is a good deer but what if i continually tell you that deer is not adequate, I'm assuming that would would start to get a little frustrated with me for saying you are shooting sub par deer.

[harvey lee]

Kern

I believe we all get a little upset when we try to define a trophy hunter.

I do not believe any trophy hunter believes they are better than anyone else. I do believe that they believe it is harder to harvest a mature buck over any other deer espically if they are targeting one deer in the woods.

To a true trophy hunter, unless they can harvest a larger animal, most will choose to pass on the others which is thier choice.

When it comes to what a trophy is, I beleive that is different for each hunter. My son's first archery deer was the best trophy I have ever seen as it was his first and it was a doe.

Then, if they want to see a few changes to help increase the buck herd size, others label them as trophy hunters like something is wrong with how they choose to hunt and what they choose to harvest.

Now, we have all the others who are looking for tablefare and there is nothing wrong with that either. Some so called trophy hunters like the tablefare also.

So, when a few suggest to maybe change some of the der management practices, then I believe others believe it will all but end thier deer hunting.

I think we all have to get over the labels and we would all be better off.

We can all go to deer camp with family and friends and still do what we have always done.

[96trigger]

Quote:

So hunting on average 4 or 5 days a week for a month and a half isn't patient, WOW! This is the problem i have with the "trophy" hunting mentality, and why I think people get frustrated is that "trophy" hunters think they are better than the rest of the hunters in the woods! And the 130" comment was supposed to be a quote from above. So back to my question on that, you think a 130 inch is a good deer but what if i continually tell you that deer is not adequate, I'm assuming that would would start to get a little frustrated with me for saying you are shooting sub par deer.

No, I consider a 130 inch buck a mature deer that is probably at least 3.5 years old. Harvey lee said what I should have. Many of us that are labeled as trophy hunters would rather not shoot a buck, than shoot one that is a basket or a fork or below our personal standards. I stand by my comment about persistence and patience. Had I done what you did and filled my archery tag the Thursday before firearm, I would never have shot the buck I did this year. And I was close to shooting a nice 8 on that Thursday, but I was disciplined enough to not do it.

Many years I bow hunt, firearm, and Muzzleloader for deer. I like hunting deer and being in the woods. Before you label me as strictly doing it for a "trophy" animal. I'd like to tell you that I just spent another $27 dollars on a muzzle loader license, even though I still have two management tags, just so I can deer hunt more, and I already have my one buck for the year. I can only shoot does now.