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Sioux Mascot


scsavre

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Bear, I think you hit the nail on the head. The tibal council does not have any real problem with them using the name or logo, they're just holding out for more $$$.

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+1 for Bear's comments. Why did this have to be all court room, legislature, NCAA threats type of stuff? Couldn't they have come to an agreement of some sort along the way and avoided all the DRAMA?

It's been going on forever. Just seems like an issue that should never have gotten to the proportions that it did.

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If you know the history of the issue or research back several years, you will find that it was the NCAA that told UND it would have to drop the nickname in order to continue to be part of the NCAA. UND fought back. Hard. A compromise was reached, and as part of that compromise, the support of both "Sioux" tribes in North Dakota (Standing Rock and Spirit Lake) was required within a certain time frame.

The Spirit Lake Tribal Council put it to a vote of the tribal members, and they approved it with about 66 percent voting yes. The Standing Rock Tribal Council, or at least a couple key councilors, were against it, and did not allow the tribe to vote on the issue in time for the NCAA deadline(s). Surveys indicated it was likely the vote would have been about the same as Spirit Lake.

Had that vote been allowed to take place, odds are this would all be water under the bridge right now.

The NCAA thing is only one angle, and now that UND athletics have found other athletic associations, not necessarily the biggest angle anymore. The NCAA just started the whole mess. There is, of course, far far more that's gone on here over the years, with several key players involved. It has indeed been one messy, convoluted and complex road that has brought us here.

I doubt the NCAA is gonna give two farts in the wind whether the North Dakota Legislature and governor produce legislation in favor of the name.

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.

I doubt the NCAA is gonna give two farts in the wind whether the North Dakota Legislature and governor produce legislation in favor of the name.

No doubt about that. The NCAA hates UND more than any Bison or Gopher fan.

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HAHA, I dont know if the NCAA hates em. I think when you look at the big picture. The NCAA couldnt care less about UND. THey are a very small blip on the radar. Maybe at the level of the WCHA they would care.....

Likely easier for them to get rid of the Sioux name, than to ever hear about it again.

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Who could blame them, UND is easy to hate! wink

Thanks for the summary Steve, would you agree if Ralph were still alive this whole matter would have been taken care of and UND would still be the Sioux?

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No I'm not wrong.

I wasn't talking about the Florida Seminoles tribes or The Spirit Lake and Standing Rock tribes/COUNCILS that see the potential benefits and who have been bought off with Millions of dollars in cash and tuition promises.

I was referring to all Native Americans in general majority who find it offensive.

And yes I know the polls on both sides which contradict each other on the matter.

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Steve, would you agree if Ralph were still alive this whole matter would have been taken care of and UND would still be the Sioux?

No, the NCAA got a bug up its a$$ about Native American sports team names and decided to target some schools and let others off. I don't think picking UND had anything to do with money, nor that Ralph's millions would have made any difference in the NCAA's case.

None of this was UND's fault. It was just UND's turn. frown

Just my opinion.

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Ok. This is just my crazy theory on why the NCAA hates UND. Going back in time to the former president Ken Baker. He was a great president for the university. Students like him ,staff like him but he had plans to change the nickname. He was fired suddenly in 97 or 98 after he was praised for taking UND through the flood and getting it ready for the next year. I don't know if there was ever a reason or it was a buyout or what. The following year Engelstad made his announcement for his generous gift for 100 million dollars.

Part two reason. Charli Kupechella(sp) UND's next president came in. In the winter of 2000 maybe right in the middle of the construction of Engelstad arena there was talk of dropping the schools logo. Engelstad wrote a letter to Kupechella and sent a copy to the GF Herald threaten to pulling his donation right in the middle of the construction of the arena if the name change or logo changed at all. I can't remember what the letter said but what was said in there basically be little the UND president and probably offended the NCAA. I'll try to find the letter and post it on here. Thats why I think the NCAA hates UND. Ralph pizz them off. In a way I kind of admire him for it but it didn't do UND any favors but then again who receive the generous donation. I guess we're paying now.

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Just remember you still have time to purchase your Fighting Sioux memorabilia through the NCAA website.

You see through this entire process over the last three years the NCAA has seen fit to profit from this so claimed racist and abusive nickname by continuing to sell logo merchandise. I checked the website shortly after the first announcement and again yesterday, items are still available unfortunately the prices haven't been reduced.

If the NCAA feels so strongly that the name should be changed, I think they should also have taken the moral high ground and removed all Sioux merchandise or donate the proceeds to Native American scholarships.

Unfortunately the only people that will be punished over this issue will be the students of UND. Either the native students will lose scholarships or non athletes will lose scholarships. Either way it does not affect the NCAA. Just the students they claim to represent.

No matter how it turns out, I will always be a Fighting Sioux!

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The NCAA should find something better to do rather than hassle schools on their names.

Like this is the biggest issue of the century.

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It isn't the biggest issue of the century. In fact it was supposed to be doen with last century. But the nit wit GOP lawmakers in Bismarck decided to second-guess their own university and board of higher education. The fact is the mascot is offensive. UND is welcomed to bow out of the NCAA at anytime if it can't abide by the rules of common decency. Hasn't this fight already embarrassed North Dakota enough?

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Easy there DHK. You're making some broad generalizations, and also completely missing certain FACTS. It's not a fact that the mascot is offensive. It doesn't offend me one bit, and I'm as native to America as you can get. Secondly, Florida State is a member of the NCAA. Are they not abiding by the rules of common decency? The only group that should be embarrassed is the Standing Rock tribal council.

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Why let the facts get in the way of a perfectly good story? Would be interesting to get a history of the name controversy - and how much it's cost the university. I seem to remember there being an uprising over the name during my time there circa 1990ish. Some good old cash quieted that down. Fighting Sioux always or I hope they go without a mascot to somewhat thumb our nose at the NCAA.

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No, the NCAA got a bug up its a$$ about Native American sports team names and decided to target some schools and let others off. I don't think picking UND had anything to do with money, nor that Ralph's millions would have made any difference in the NCAA's case.

None of this was UND's fault. It was just UND's turn. frown

Just my opinion.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of getting a deal cut with tribes to gain NCAA approval. You know, here is a big check and you get a % of the jersey sales and we keep our name kind of stuff.

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I guess I was thinking more along the lines of getting a deal cut with tribes to gain NCAA approval. You know, here is a big check and you get a % of the jersey sales and we keep our name kind of stuff.

Oh sorry, never thought of it that way. That might have worked.

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Facts would be that the Seminole Indians are OK with Florida State's use of the nickname -- the NCAA asked them. Facts would be the NCAA asked if the tribes in North Dakota were OK with it and Standing Rock did not indicate it was. These are the facts.

Other facts would be the tone of so many of the arguments about the nickname that carry slurs against Native Amwericans.

Finally, it's really a sad commentary on the state of North Dakota that their sole source of pride is a hockey team made up almost exclusively of Canadians who wear a Native American logo on their jersey.

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Your right Standing Rock had a chance to voice there opinions and never did. In my opinion without Standing Rock's approval North Dakota will be judged the way you mention from outsiders.

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So who is to say the Seminoles are not offended. Has the question ever been asked -are the North Dakota tribes offended by the use of the Florida Seminole name and mascot. Those of you who complain and pretend to have passion shouldn't be any more mad about one or the other. The NCAA is hypocritical, if they really cared about mascots being offensive they would get rid of all of the Native American logos and names, or keep them all. Havent the Seminoles pretty much sold out to businesses and promotions anyway. The logo and name is a promotion to their business and success at this point.

Also, if Ralph was alive I guarantee this would be alot more interesting. He wouldnt pay the indians off, guaranteed. Some say it was a battle that he enjoyed. If he was as racist as some say, I bet he loved the thought of turning a college and state against the Native Americans.

I hate the Sioux, but really what else is there in ND to be proud of, Phil Jackson....2 baseball players.....a big flood every year....and an oil field that seems to only be making non citizens rich.

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"]

I hate the Sioux, but really what else is there in ND to be proud of, Phil Jackson....2 baseball players.....a big flood every year....and an oil field that seems to only be making non citizens rich.

You forgot about Lawrence Welk grin

On a side note. The NCAA will let the Fighting Sioux host the Ice Breaker tourament next year. This is a NCAA tourament. They had it in St Louis last year with poor attendance. This shows the NCAA is about money.

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The NCAA are haters. The fact that there interested in making money doesn't change that IMO. UND's hockey program won't suffer if the name is kept but the rest of there athletics will. It was just a crazy theory but I still think the way Ralph bully the two previous UND presidents around had to upset some of the people at the NCAA. Here's a link to the "Dear Chuck" letter Ralph sent to the president and the Herald so it was a public to everybody.

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/dearchuck.html

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  • 3 weeks later...

An NCAA spokesman says the association's policy on the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux nickname and logo hasn't changed.

The North Dakota Senate on Friday approved a bill that orders UND to keep its nickname and logo. The NCAA considers them hostile and abusive to American Indians.

The NCAA has said if UND keeps the name and logo, the school won't be able to host postseason tournaments. UND athletes also won't be able to wear the name and logo on jerseys during postseason events.

This is the NCAA comment after the ND senate put into law to keep the name.

NCAA spokesman Erik Christianson says in a statement that the bill "is a state issue, and the NCAA policy remains unchanged."

Some supporters of the UND nickname bill said the legislation might persuade the NCAA to change its policy.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/2011/...y#ixzz1GLJViyl1

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Oh, and a little history. Back in 1969 the Standing Rock elders granted the university the "right" to use the Sioux nickname. There was no expiration date on that, as far as I know. It was during the same ceremony they made UND Pres. George Starcher an honorary chief of the tribe. These things were done through a pipe ceremony, a ceremony sacred to the tribe.

It was a very big deal at the time, and came during a period when there was a lot of tension nationally between Native Americans and whites. Tribal elders don't do those things lightly.

Whether or not that was brought to the NCAA's attention when as part of the lawsuit settlement they said UND could keep the nickname if both tribes approved, I don't know. Certainly, one logical interpretation would be that both tribes already have approved the nickname's use.

I expect it might be part of the evidence presented in the next lawsuit against the NCAA, if it comes.

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And here's more from the last couple of days in the Grand Forks Herald.

Quote:
Steve Fool Bear, Grand Forks, column: Represent the majority — Indian and non-Indian

By Steve Fool Bear

GRAND FORKS — About three years ago, I wrote a letter that helped spark a different perspective on the logo issue, a perspective that resonated across the state and much of the nation (“Sioux: Embrace culture,” Page D2, March 23, 2008).

The letter used the logo issue as a way to reveal and address the hypocrisy and corruption that now plagues Native America. I revealed the unpopular facts of this issue: The permission already given by the Standing Rock governing body in 1969, the ceremony that cannot be undone, the evidence showing a two-thirds majority in support — evidence that has been proven true time and time again — and the hypocrisy of Indian tribes’ own athletic names and logos.

After all, if the nicknames are so derogatory, then why do we use them ourselves? Why does the anti-logo group not acknowledge this fact?

Common sense has brought this issue to where it is now. Since that letter this fight has taken many different directions, and now it lies in front of the North Dakota Senate.

What many senators do not realize is that the fight waged in favor of the logo by American Indians is a fight for our freedoms: our right to speak, our right to addresses grievances with the government, our right to live free from oppression, all the violations that have been bestowed on our Indian peoples due to this issue by our own governing bodies.

Our voices have been silenced by a few for far too long, and that’s what we seek to end. If we have not an opinion, then we have not freedom. We have not a majority voice and then have not a democracy.

That is what the issue is about for American Indians. Many nickname proponents have been stigmatized by our own people. We have been attacked in the media, in the classrooms and most of all our homes.

We seek to reveal the truth, no matter how hurtful it may be to those in denial.

The truth is that Indians are NOT enemies, victims, hypocrites or wards of state. This has nothing to do with an arbitrary symbol; the logo is a catalyst to social change.

American Indians are no longer oppressed by the American governing bodies. We are oppressed by our own self-righteous few, who have destroyed our culture and stifled any progress or hope for our people’s future.

Those who wish to press their narrow-minded elitist agendas on the whole are doing so by using any means necessary. They do this so they can beat their chests and brag how they defeated the white man.

I grew up with these people, and this is all they seek. By allowing them to do this, North Dakota will have abandoned whatever hope there was to bridge our two cultures. The divisions will continue. The majorities will be silenced, the corruption on the reservations will continue to run rampant, and those who now are stigmatized will be ostracized for doing what was right and what was American: standing up for the majority when no one else would.

The truth will once again be silenced.

I urge senators to listen to their common sense. Money and resources come and go; we are one of the wealthiest states in the nation. Why not defend our traditions?

Senators are elected to represent the majority, both Indian and non-Indian alike; it is that simple.

I urge senators to help us reveal the truth.

Fool Bear is a UND senior and a member of the Standing Rock Sioux Nation.

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Tough to go through life with the name "Fool Bear"

Not really. It doesn't mean quite what it sounds like.

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