Might be time to give them a break

[Tom7227]

I'm no biologist but it seems to me that it's time to give the bids a break. They are going to expend too much energy if you flush them from the cover now and it will stress them to get them back where they can stay relatively warm. The hens may just have a bit better hatch next spring if they're not so worn out now.

[Jaspernuts]

We had a lot of rain down here by mankato before the snow started. Not looking good around here.

[2thepointsetters]

I will give them a break when the season is done. Have you done any research that proves the late season hunting effects next seasons numbers? I doubt the few people left hunting will change the numbers one way or another. What about the other predators that eat pheasants? What about the roosters that push the hens out of the good cover? I will help the population by removing the roosters so more hens have a chance.

[swany25]

Late season hunting does not hurt the birds anymore than early season hunting. Whats the differance if you or your dog flush them or they fly between food and roosting areas.

One rooster can service several hens and with less roosters there is more food for the hens to survive on.

I don't a;ways agree with the DNR's bag limits but one thing Ill say abouth them is that they are very conservative. If they thought that hunting was hard on the birds late season they would end it earlier and/or would definitely not have a 3 bird limit during december.

[grab the net]

Same topic comes up every year about this time. Especially when the weather gets cold and snowy like this. You can't put roosters in the bank for next year. As far as stressing the hens, not likely, but if you feel it will help by all means give them a break.

[BLACKJACK]

I never have been a big fan of the the DNR extending the season or going to a three bird limit, it just means more stress on the birds during the late season. I just read an article in Deer and Deer hunting magazine about the affects of snowmobiling and deer, how it stresses them out and ends up killing a few, you don't suppose hunters chasing pheasants out of the cover stresses them out, burns more energy, and makes the winter tougher?

I think it boils down to a little common sense. Stressing the birds out and running the hens up into the bare fence lines is going to cost birds. Don't go out at 4 PM during a snowstorm and run the birds out of the only available cover. If you're hitting a big cattails swamp the birds will just fly to a different patch of the swamp.

It is a conundrum. I love pheasant hunting and if the DNR extends the season I'll probably go out after them, I justify it by the fact that I need the exercise, and I also plant some corn food plots so the pheasants 'owe me' but I do feel guilty when I flush a hen out of her sunny, brushy spot when its 4 above.

[2thepointsetters]

I just read an article in Deer and Deer hunting magazine about the affects of snowmobiling and deer, how it stresses them out and ends up killing a few,

Blame snowmobiles? You dont think the trails make it easier for the deer to travel? I bet the trails/sleds save more than they kill.

[BLACKJACK]

Blame snowmobiles? You dont think the trails make it easier for the deer to travel? I bet the trails/sleds save more than they kill.

Obviously you're a snowmobiler justifying riding thru the woods and spooking deer. Sure the deer probably use the snowmobile trails but then when another one comes along, the deer have to scatter into the deep snow.

I was just paraphrasing what the article said, that snowmobilers stress out deer, stress uses more energy, and the more energy they use fleeing snowmobiles, the less energy they have for staying alive. Then relating that to pheasant survival, being stressed out by hunters, and less energy left for staying alive.

[ac777]

I'm no biologist but it seems to me that it's time to give the bids a break. They are going to expend too much energy if you flush them from the cover now and it will stress them to get them back where they can stay relatively warm. The hens may just have a bit better hatch next spring if they're not so worn out now.

You keep telling all the city folk that, I'll keep shooting all the birds

[JJK]

Thank God we have game farms and SD.

Who wanted longer seasons and increased limits anyway?

When we have long nasty winters mother nature will kill as many as she wants. If more was done to add, conserve, and create prime habitat for all seasons, less birds would die from weather conditions. Winter cover is not the only savior for pheasants. It takes much more to sustain the phez population. All the way down to things like food for the chicks (insects).

Really Guys, most folks are done bird hunting this year. The few nuts that still get out a few days during tough conditions near the end of the season probably don't do much damage.

I say go hunt'em up, because thats what Die Hards do.

[rundrave]

this topic comes up every winter. pheasants are hardy birds, yes some die in the winter but for the most part they do what they can to survive. There are still plenty of birds around, and I have seem them out and about doing just fine after the storm this weekend.

the biggest factor in your numbers each season is not the severity of weather over the winter months, it is more the quality of nesting habitat in the spring. those spring months is what will determine a good or bad year of pheasant hunting

I dont call myself a die hard for hunting this time of year, I am just not fair weathered these are the best days of hunting, the birds sit tight and I get all the public land all to myself. Its also a great time to get some more dog work in and allow them to get some feathers in their mouth. I dont train year around to only hunt when its nice out.

[LandDr]

Surveys show the majority of pheasant hunters hunt the opener and maybe another weekend or two. I was amazed by the survey results as well.

The reason for the longer season was to offer some extended economic opportunity to rural communities as well as some other factors. Research showed by the law of deminishing returns, that less and less people go out pheasant hunting as the season goes on due to less roosters to harvest. Research also shows that it is virtually impossible to get every rooster and it only takes a rooster or two to breed the hens. I beleive the stat is that one rooster can breed up to 30 or 35 hens...but that does not happen in the wild since there are usually enough roosters to reduce the rooster to hen ratio down to 6 or 8 hens per rooster. But the potential is there.

The increased limit was also derived from the fact that you can not get every rooster. The 3 bird limit was offered as an opportunity to get a few more people out into rural MN to spend some money in the rural economy among other factors.

Fact is...if the die hards are going out day after day shooting roosters, then they better be eating pheasant just about every night to stay within your possession limit.

It is a fact that roosters will push hens out of good cover and consumer food resources. Harvesting these roosters down will do some good to getting the hens thru the winter.

Now...if you are truely concerned about the survival of pheasants when you look out your window, but have done nothing to help them out in regards to cover and food, then you are setting yourself up for a let down. If you want to let your birds chance the winter with Mother Nature, then the odds are against you and your birds.

Consider this...we do not shoot hens...therefore we should have exponential population growth. But we don't. Even when the season was two birds til the end and the end of the season was not til the end of the year...there still was not exponential population growth.

So what is happening to the hens? The hens are the most important factor in population growth...what is happening to them should be concern number one. Way before thinking about insects for chicks or chick survival or nesting success...you should be thinking about hen survival. Because fact is...if you don't have a hen, then you don't have nests or chicks..."Dead Hens Don't Lay Eggs" as we say to our customers.

Here are our keys to hen survival in order from now until next year...

1. Harvest roosters down to a reasonable number.

2. Load up your property, neighbor's property, property you hunt and WMA/WPA properties with feeders. DO NOT place feeders out in the open, on knolls, along roads, under or near tall trees, etc. You can't plant a food plot right now so a feeder is your best and only option. Corn is great but add some millets, Milo and sunflower in the mix if you can. It has much higher protein and is much more digestable. It may not be that the birds will starve to death...but more importantly is the fact that closely placed food associated with thick winter cover will reduce the "exposure" of the birds to predators and inclement weather. The less distance the bird has to go to the food source...the better. The less energy the bird has to expend to get food...the better. So all the people that are worried about the birds, get some feeders installed in strategic locations. For all the die hards still hunting, you definately should be getting feeders out.

3. For next spring, get a plan together for the property you own or the property you hunt. Woody cover development (shrub/conifers), thick native grass and food plots should be planned, designed and installed to "winterize" the property. THERE ARE GREAT PROGRAMS AVAILABLE to help pay for some or even all of the costs of these projects depending on the land. The only long term solution to reducing "hen" winter mortality is to build them a better house with consistent and reliable food sources.

4. Predator control...this is up to you, but research has shown that if you aggressively remove predators during the nesting season it will substantially increase your nesting success. From what I understand, nesting success is somewhere around 10 to 15 percent...if you aggressively trap, you can increase the nesting success up to 30 to 35 percent. That is potentially doubling your nesting success.

5. Bugs...I am not a big believer in creating "buggier" habitat. Habitat is just naturally buggy without doing anything and provides all the insects the hen and chicks need. Most research shows that insects make up 70 to 80 percent of all organisms in a survey...that's a lot of bugs! Just go dig around in the grass in the spring and observe all the bugs. But, if you want to increase the number of bugs, I am sure it won't hurt anything.

I own three farms and on each of these farms I have developed shrub/conifer plants often associated with other existing thick cover. I have also established many acres of thick native grass that I burn on a rotation to keep the stands thick and healthy. I also have 15 to 20 acres of food plots spread out and associated with the thickest cover. And withing all of this, I have 10 feeders on each farm to suppliment the food sources and to assure there is always enough food associated with the thick cover so the birds don't have very farm to go from cover to food. That said, I am not worried about my birds thru the winter.

Land Dr

[vman11]

this topic comes up every winter.

it is more the quality of nesting habitat in the spring. those spring months is what will determine a good or bad year of pheasant hunting

Springs are key, but easy winters don't hurt.

I'm with the people who hunt into January. You might as well kill them before the blizzards do.

I would also like to see a DNR/G&F biology study done so this subject include facts, not biased opinions.

[LandDr]

I respectfully disagree...it is not the quality of the nesting cover. Pheasants are prolific nesters and will nest just about anywhere and keep nesting up to 4 or 5 times to get a success ful nest.

The most critical issue is getting the hen thru the winter. That is when most of our hens die. Ice storms, drifting snow, traveling far from the cover to find food, etc...all of these contribute to hen mortality.

If it was as easy as nesting cover, then we would still have exponential growth of our hen populations. But we are still losing our hen numbers. When we have mild winters, more hens make it thru to make more hens, and so on and so on.

Nesting cover and nesting success is important, but as I mentioned...dead hens don't lay eggs. You gotta get your hens thru the winter to have any further potential success in population growth. Thick cover associated with consistent and reliable food sources will help accomplish higher spring breeding populations. Then the nesting factors will play a role.

Land Dr

[2thepointsetters]

Obviously you're a snowmobiler justifying riding thru the woods and spooking deer. Sure the deer probably use the snowmobile trails but then when another one comes along, the deer have to scatter into the deep snow.

I was just paraphrasing what the article said, that snowmobilers stress out deer, stress uses more energy, and the more energy they use fleeing snowmobiles, the less energy they have for staying alive. Then relating that to pheasant survival, being stressed out by hunters, and less energy left for staying alive.

Should I stop driving my car also, because it pushes the deer off the highway?

[CRAZYEYES]

I think the pheasants worst enemy right now is crop prices. I've noticed a lot of CRP gone and a lot of old farmsteads torn down and turned into a bonfire this year.

[castmaster]

For those feeding birds, remember it is just as important to put out a source of gravel as it is to place the food.

[LandDr]

You have a point there...crop prices are much more competitive to conservation these days. That reflects more on "general" CRP however...the other programs are most often still paying more than crop prices and also offer incentive payments up to $100/ac enrolled along with up to 90% cost share for the projects. Some watersheds also throw in another $100 to $150 per acre enrolled as an incentive.

These are still very attractive numbers in comparison to crop prices.

Farms have gotten bigger and many of these farmers don't want to mess around with programs and the people in these offices...it is easier to just drive the tractor across the field. I work with people daily that tell me if it wasn't for me taking care of all the politics and paperwork, they never would have considered these programs. Why does it have to be such an ordeal to get signed up? Farmers don't have time for the ordeal and are not interested in playing games with applications. Dennis Anderson once asked me why more farmers don't sign up for these lucrative programs...I told him "because they don't like the hassel they have to go thru to sign up".

[LandDr]

Castmaster...this is just the research...but studies have shown that grit lasts up to 6 months in a gizzard so it is not a limiting factor. You can certainly add it to your feeder and the pheasants will undoubtedly utilize it, but they have enough grit to make it thru the winter.

Pheasants along roadsides due pick up grit, but they are mainly up there picking up waste grain that fell out of trucks/combines/etc and also insects.

It definately helps to mix in some cereal grains that is higher in protein and a softer grain for improved digestion. You may find that the birds will pick thru the feed to eat the sunflowers first, other cereal grains next and the corn last.

[BLACKJACK]

Landdr, what type of feeders do you use that feed the pheasants yet don't get cleaned out by the deer?

On predator control, are you concentrating just on coons and skunks, or do you also go after fox and coyotes? Are you trapping just in the spring or year around? I've been getting rid of the destructive coons around my deck and bird feeders but have been wondering whether I should expand my trapline...

[LandDr]

There are several options for feeders...trash can feeder or barrel feeder are effective. Cut a 1.5 inch hole in the bottom along the edge on four sides to let the feed run out. You will need to put these on pallets or something to keep them off the ground and you will need a piece of plyboard or carpet to keep the feed from running down thru the pallets. Secure the lid on with wire so it doesn't blow away. Each 55 gals of feed will feed approximately 30 birds thru the winter...if you have more birds, put out more feeders so you don't have to check feeders later or try to get feed back into the feeders.

We make a 65 gal. feeder here in Glenwood that is made out of UV resistent poly and a metal pan for catching the feed. All of which is supported by three legs. With this unit, you don't need pallents and it keeps the grain dryer and more accessable.

Whatever feeder you install, we put 6x6 woven wire around the feeder to keep the deer out...but allows the pheasants to run thru. We use the 6x6 woven wire concrete reinforcement wire used when you pour a slab of concrete for example. If I recall, we use around 2o to 25 feet per feeder. We also secure this to 3 or 4 T-posts so it stays in place. Since the ground is frozen, just secure the T-posts to the wire to allow the weight of the T-posts to hold it down...not as good but might be your only option at this time of year.

Pheasants are like chickens...they are messy eaters and will kick some grain outside the fence so the deer get a little snack now and then.

I don't recommend "cob feeders" of using corn cobs. If you are going to go thru the work of putting out feed, then go with volumn. With cobs, most of what you are putting out is waste.

I will attempt to post some photos.

[LandDr]

Regarding predators...

I have been tollerant of coyotes because they help keep other ground predators out of the area. They are very territorial and for the most part they are scavengers and rodent eaters. I don't have too many other ground predators around due to the coyotes. But...the yotes are starting to really harrass my deer population, so I think it is time to thin them down as well.

I do put out live traps throughout the year...mostly I catch wild cats but occassionally I get a coon or skunk. Hands down the most common in the traps are cats. Some of those cats are just plain nasty looking...ufda. They look like the reincarnated pets on Pet Cemetary. Nasty!

I also focus on making my cover REALLY thick. If it is hard for me to hunt in, then it is hard for the other predators as well. I also have some tollerance of predators since I am one as well. If predators take 10 to 15% of my bird population, and I have around 150 to 200 birds per 160 acres, that adds up to 15 to 25 birds...which still leaves me 125 to 175 birds. I am ok with that cuz I still have a lot of birds. If my property had a low carrying capacity and I only had 30 to 50 birds and predators take 10 to 15 percent, then that would have a greater impact to me. The key is to make your habitat out and greatly increase your carrying capacity so you have so many birds that road hunters and predators don't really make a big impact in your bird population. Or even a tough winter.

The predator question always comes up when I give seminars. It is a factor, but it can be minimized or even tollerated.

Land Dr

[JJK]

So lets organize an annual FM wild dog, cat, skunk, possum, and fox hunt this spring. Now that shoot sounds like a hoot.

Anyone like to attend?

[LandDr]

The hunt might get a few critters...but you have to keep it up every day for at least a month to keep the predator population down in the area you are treating. It is amazing how fast predators move into an area once other predators are being removed. The hunt would be fun and get some critters...but...it is hard to compare with the results of a continous trapping of an area since traps operate 24 hours a day 7 days a week as long as you are checking and resetting.

Land Dr

[LandDr]

Organizing an "FM Trapline" and report in each week on your catch...that would interesting!

There would be some very interesting photos I am sure! Especially those nasty cats.

Keep in mind the pelts will probably not be any good on sellable critters at that time of year. You are strictly trapping to increase nesting success...and the time, labor and expense that goes into it.

But don't forget...no trapping in the world will help dead hens that don't make it thru the winter. You have to get the food sources out in the thick cover so the birds don't have to leave the cover to get food and expose them to mortalities. You gotta get the hens thru the winter first...then everything else can follow.

It would be like you laying in bed and having your beer fridge next to your bed loaded with your favorite beverage and foods...all you would have to do is roll over, eat and drink. You would not have to go out into the scarey world and all of its hazards. Although not healthy, you chances of living would increase substantially.

Land Dr

[Scott M]

Back to the subject. This is from Doug Smith's story in yesterday's Star Tribune about late season pheasant hunting after the big storm last weekend:

Quote:

Also, some Minnesota hunters have expressed concern that late-season hunting pushes hens from good cover, increasing their vulnerability. But there are no studies to support that theory, said Kurt Haroldson, DNR pheasant biologist.

"When conditions are really bad, there's probably not that many hunters out," he said.

The biggest cause of hen mortality is predation, he said.

I think a wildlife biologist would tell you what happens when dogs and snowmobile drivers chase deer, they have to struggle with snow crusts, long legs, hoofs with small surface area that break through the snow. Pheasants on the other hand can fly, take cover, walk on snow crusts when hunted. Not analogous IMO.

[CaptainMusky]

I think a wildlife biologist would tell you what happens when dogs and snowmobile drivers chase deer, they have to struggle with snow crusts, long legs, hoofs with small surface area that break through the snow. Pheasants on the other hand can fly, take cover, walk on snow crusts when hunted. Not analogous IMO.

Chasing deer with a snowmobile? Actually, the person who originally brought this up was commenting on just the snowmobile traveling along a trail etc causing excessive stress on deer, NOT chasing them. Obviously this would be ridiculous, illegal and completely unsportsmanlike.

If you are concerned about dogs chasing deer in the snow, what effect do you think coyotes have? They are equally adept at chasing deer through deep snow and I would be much more worried about them than dogs because they travel in groups usually.

Personally I think this whole thread has gotten out of hand. You have obvious people who have a bone to pick with snowmobilers and think that all they do is chase wild game and then you have others who are providing data from biologists which has been supported for years that you CANNOT overhunt roosters.

Yeah the snow is deep in some areas. Will an individual hunter have a dramatic affect on next years pheasant hunter by taking his loyal hunting companion for a walk through the waist high drifts in the hopes to bag a couple roosters? NO! Get out there an hunt, if you are worried about what the impact might be, stay home. Simple as that. The seasons and limits are what they are for many reasons. I plan to strap on some snowshoes and hit some fields this weekend.

[Scott M]

Sorry, I poorly worded that CM. My point was the physiological differences of pheasants and deer alone are not the same. I wasn't intending to take a shot at snowmobile operators, I haven't heard of snowmobilers ticketed for deer harassment. However I have heard of domestic dog owners being ticketed for deer harassment. I'd be more worried about dogs killing and weakening deer for sport than coyotes killing to eat.

But I agree, to each their own. If you think you are helping by not hunting the birds, stay home.

[muc33]

Agree'd, and as much as I agree with many of the points, what really to me is a determining factor of most any season, or seasons is habitat. The "field of dreams" method really does work in wildlife. If you build it, they will come. Now are there many factors to keeping it up, proper cover, predator control ect. yes, but if you don't have the habitat, you have none of that to worry about. You first must have the habitat. And you can always improve on that habitat with the other features. It's like big deer, why do groves with food plots, less pressure and cover have bigger deer, well hello, all of the above contribute to that, but first you have to have that spot and those features to keep them.

[Surface Tension]

If you jump a hen from heavy cover guess what, she probably hasn't been seen another hunter for some time and she flies away to the next patch of cover. Heck, when I walk from the front door to my truck do you think I'm putting stress on the Chickadee I scare out of the tree?

Deer are on a starvation diet come winter. On a good year they have enough fat reserves to get them through winter.

A deer getting off the trail isn't running a mile to escape from you. Its just putting on a little distance and more then not a block away is all they need.

Chasing dogs are another matter, they don't have to catch a deer to kill them, the distance is stress and loss of stored fat.