Opinions Needed

[Hory]

I am not from the area, or Minnesota for that matter. However, I am doing some research on conservation practices and such involving freshwater ecosystems for a master's degree. I was directed by a professor to this video. Does this still occur on Mille Lacs? Have you noticed a major difference in your fishing experiences that you believe are attributed to these actions?

I am looking for strictly non-scientific opinions/information and observations from some of the lake's regulars for an informal write-up. Thanks for your help!

Also, I am not trying to start any confrontations by any means!

HERE IS THE VIDEO...

type in the famous video website starting with www.yout... .com and then enter /watch?v=nIqwZ43r6Ik

[pureinsanity]

As far as I know yes it still goes on

[goose89]

Have you noticed a major difference in your fishing experiences that you believe are attributed to these actions?

Do I support the action? No.

Do I believe it's negatively impacting my fishing experiences. No.

I've seen non-tribal waters more negatively impacted by overharvest by non-tribal members, than Mille Lacs.

Unfortunately, today, we need special restrictions to reverse what's been done to many lakes. Mille Lacs is proof of this. Unfortunately, again, there same restrictions that seem to work on one body of water, may not work on another. Getting a bit off topic......... interested to see what others say.......

[John Mickish]

This is a very touchy subject. Lets help out Hory and keep this civil, or it will go away.

[Hory]

I completely agree that each body of water is unique and that plans to implement sustainability of fisheries vary from place to place. With that being said, has anyone specifically seen these practices in person? Are the nets prepared to allow smaller fish to pass through?

Sorry to keep bombarding you with questions, but I value the insight from people who regularly fish the lake and can give a first-person perspective!

***Aside from my studies, my opinion is that I can't imagine it not having some impact on the fish population...especially with regard to the lake's "spwaners." IF it is truly deemed necessary for these practices to take place, I think some regulations regarding timing and allowing fish to spawn before harvest are worth considering.

Keep the insight and opinions coming!

[BrdHunter01]

I have somewhat seen these practices in person. I have seen them out setting and gathering nets. I have seen the tents/towns of people gathered to harvest these fish. I have not seen them actually cleaning these fish in person.

I do not support this at all. I still have plenty of luck catching walleyes of all sizes. But I can only imagine what the fishing would be like if this were not occuring.

As far as the nets. yes they are a specific size designed to catch "eater size" fish. But then again they are nets and catch all different sizes and species of fish. Its not just walleyes that end up in these nets and its not just 14-20in fish either. I personally believe a lot of the smaller walleyes do not get caught up in the nets.

As far as the spawn, I believe it allows them to reach there quota much easier/faster. But if they were to wait until the fall the fish would be tightly bunched then also. All that would allow is one extra year of spawning for the fish. Other than that the same amount of fish are being taken. I also believe a lot more big females would be taken during the fall compared to spring. During spawn the females go in, spawn, then go back out deep and rest/recover. I personally believe the females gather in the shallows for a longer period of time during the fall. This is JMO.

I do not agree with any of it but it is what it is. I do think the DNR is doing a great job keeping the lake a great walleye fishery. But as they are being allowed more and more lbs of fish every year... I just hope it doesn't turn into another Red Lake disaster. I don't think it will but its something to keep in mind and refer to in your report GL

[Harmonica Bear]

But I can only imagine what the fishing would be like if this were not occuring.

Isn't the tribal gill netting on Mille lacs a relatively recent thing? Starting 10-15 years ago? Please correct if I am wrong on that. That being the case, hard to know the long term effects. It has to be watched/monitored/enforced very closely though. I think there is a fine line between good fishing and the bottom falling out.

[BrdHunter01]

Your right it was fairly recent. I believe the supreme court decision was in 99. They have prob taken about a 1,000,000 lbs of walleyes in 10+ years give or take a cpl 100,000. Thats a lot of walleyes. I believe the Red Lake situation they were taking around a million a year. And in a couple years they were gone. A Million lbs every 10 years could put the lake in serious trouble. Not to mention they continue to increase the allotted amount every year. This year was 120-130,000 if I remember correctly. Whats it going to be next year? 140,000, 150 the year after that and so on.

I'm not saying the fishing isn't good on Mille Lacs because it is (for now). The netting practice is simply unethical IMO. I wish there were another 1,000,000 lbs of walleyes in the lake for the anglers that spend 5-10k a year (like me) to fish the lake.

[Raider4ever]

Everybody here realizes that tribal netting/spearing, etc. ends up being less than 0.3 lbs of walleye per licensed angler, don't you? I will gladly grant them my 0.3 lbs after what they were subjected to by our government in the 1800's.

[MuskieSlayer]

research on conservation practices and such involving freshwater ecosystems for a master's degree.

[Hory]

Muskie Slayer, I agree with you completely. My wording/explanation was rather poor.

Before diving into the research, my uneducated opinion is that netting should only be for a certain amount of time (a short period) with a slightly lower top-end number for weights harvested. If the quantity/weight isn't reached at the end of the time period, than the netting will end regardless for that year. If the netting is alotted to a certain time period, I don't agree that the time should be around the spawn when fish are congregated in easily identifiable areas. It isn't so much the specific season's spawn that is of concern, it is more the relative ease of taking a mass number of fish during that time. If this netting is truly to "put food on tables" (which I have a hard time believing), then that unfortunately serves as justification to harvest until a set quantity/weight is reached without implementing a shorter time period for legal netting.

Sorry for any confusion

[Shack]

Boy oh Boy Hory, do you have crazy ton-o-stuff to catch up on. Kind of like going to the MN Twins' Target field around 11:00pm after a loosing play-off game and asking the fans that are still lingering around what happened and giving insight as to what should (have) be done. You're going to get all kinds of answers and 99.9% of them are not going to be cool.

Here you go: Click Here

The above link will give you some background on what you are up against. I also, when ever I can lay down some trubute, I drop this:

Quote:

A Tribute to Joe Karpan, American Hero

JOE KARPEN, A PRIVATE LANDOWNER THAT REPRESENTED MINNESOTA CITIZENS IN THE MILLE LACS TREATY CASE DIES AT AGE 70.

By Howard B. Hanson

September 15, 2008

True American heroes come along infrequently. When they do, it is because they are stubborn proponents for what is right. And they’re willing to stand up and persevere through a great deal of adversity.

Joe Karpen was one of those special Americans. In the early 1990’s, Joe helped stop a treaty-case settlement that Minnesota officials had secretly negotiated with the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe’s government. Tribal leaders had filed a treaty rights lawsuit to commercially fish Lake Mille Lacs. State leaders tried to get the settlement approved by the Minnesota Legislature, but Joe and his friends stopped the attempt and got the case into court where they thought it belonged, and where they expected to be heard and win.

Joe, with a handful of other landowners, intervened in the Mille Lacs Treaty Case as a party representing the areas private landowners. The State had admitted they would not protect the interests of the private landowners against the gill-netting and commercialization of the public's fisheries resources. Counties involved in the treaty area also intervened in the case. So the State, the Counties and the Landowners all became parties in the Mille Lacs Treaty Case, Joe also had the support of his wife Marty, and they were willing to stand up against all kinds of false, hurtful attacks and charges against themselves because they believed in the basic laws and constitutional principles of their country.

Through Proper Economic Resource Management (PERM), the Landowners fundraising vehicle, Joe worked tirelessly for many years. He helped organize events and sold raffle tickets to help raise the $1.5 million needed for the journey to the United States Supreme Court. In an unbelievable display of legerdemain Chief Justice Sandra Day O’Connor, the swing vote in a 5-4 victory for the Mille Lacs Band and the commercial gill-net interests, totally ignored the Landowners ten minute oral argument before the court. The Landowners’ attorney pointed out how the Mille Lacs Band had taken money from the Indian Claims Commission as final settlement for any and all claims forever.

Joe and his supporters were deeply saddened by the ruling and to this day have been trying to figure out how full parties to a case before the United States Supreme Court presented oral arguments that went un-cited. Also unaddressed in Justice O’Connor’s majority opinion were the legal briefs, whose arguments had won for states in earlier treaty cases before the high court.

Area residents have been paying the price ever since as the gill-net over-harvest is ruining the sports-fishing tourism based local economy.

Had Joe not committed to this cause his friends and neighbors in three townships at Lake Mille Lacs would also have been living on a fully restored Indian Reservation for the past fifteen years being governed by a sovereign- immune race based tribal government in which they would have no voice. State officials had never told the Landowners and other Minnesotans that restoration of an old 1855 treaty reservation, which the Indians had sold, was also part of the secret settlement.

Joe and his friends supported granting every American, including Indians, equal protection under our federal and state constitutions, and giving every American equal access and standing before, constitutional courts.

Joe’s adversaries must defend a system that denies Indians on reservations the protection of federal and state constitutions and courts.

When Joe gets to the Pearly Gates he can say that he always believed in Leviticus 24:22: “Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.” It’s a cinch that Joe will finally find justice because that is what he truly believed and lived! What verse is Sandra Day O’Connor and those other four Justices that broke Joe's heart going to hold up when they approach those gates? Gives them something to ponder in the meantime, doesn’t it?

I am torn on this issue. One side respects the fight that was waged on both sides as to what each felt was right and IMO it was won in the fairest way possible that we know of, the U.S. Supreme Court. Mille Lacs has been a part of my life since I was about 5. More so at times and less during others as life happens, but always the first thought when the word "walleye" is brought up. The reason I am torn is not because of the pre-spawn netting. In my honest opinion it is a mute point. I am a meat eater. I catch a jumbo in March and the bulk of the bulk is eggs, I do not see myself as unethical. I have the right to do so, handed down from the powers who be that I have to listen to. Plus you net egg filled walleyes during the spawn one year, switch it up to the fall time like Muskie said, there are those who will still take issue because those "spawners" will not have a chance to spawn the next year. Or you could break it down by taking it to a level of the StemCell research debate. It will never end. There is 101 ways to cut up a legal walleye and many will debate which way is best.

I am sorry if I do come off as disrespectful. IMO a guy who sites hundreds of miles away and has an opinion is not helping anything. Obtaining "non scientific" opinions on an on-line forum will get you what? An opinion. Maybe this is what you are after and what you plan to do with it is beyound me. You are not going to receive IMO anything of scientific value within here. What You're going to get is arguing, bickering, resentment and even some hatred mixed in. If that helps solves things then why is our world not holdings hands and signing songs of rejoice and loving one another? When I read this:

I am looking for strictly non-scientific opinions/information and observations from some of the lake's regulars for an informal write-up.

May only & flustered response is "Go". Plan on spending a week and book a resort cabin. Talk to the resort staff and most of all, the resort mangers. Have your breakfast's, lunch's & dinner's at one of the many great places around the lake to eat. Stop in and buy gas, along with some goodies at the local gas stations. Then make sure to make the time to hang out at a couple of the many public accesses around the lake. Hire a local guide to get you on the water so you can experience first hand the answers to your questions. That, my friend , is the only way you will find out the true story. Short of that and by asking in here only raises questions as to why this is being brought up. If you are earnest with finding the scoop on ML, you do the above, please be sure to come back and share your findings.

I touched on this earlier in my post but would like hit it again. Walleyes are great. Feel & focus yourself on them as the vocal point for concern. Myself? They are just fish, which have thousands upon thousands of advocates from either side, ready at a moments noticed to do "something" with computer key board is called upon. I feel the need for action and concern lies elsewhere. The fish are their. They are healthy. They are feeding. The forgotten ones (literary) I feel are the local business and commerce around Lake Mille Lacs. You can save the walleye all you want, but what about focusing on the consequences of this topic being brought up over and over, much like this thread, and what they have (if any) on visitors choosing or choosing not to include Mille Lacs in their weekend plans. I just do not understand those that get heated around the collar about this sooo much that they rule out Mille Lacs as the solution, then add in the phrase "dead sea" within their exiting remarks. These are just the ones who choose this as a solution. I personally know two separate individuals who use the above scenario as to why they are going to drive past Mille Lacs to lakes further north after what played out last spring. They are honestly fed up with it. The ones who do have the most impact and should be focused on are the ones reading threads such as these. I honestly feel there is an overwhelming forward and subconscious vibe which is festering within the category of those who have the honest means/ability to go up and fund the only force (the communities surrounding ML) that hold the possibilities of change to what is being done today.

But in the end, who am I to say anything. I do know what I am right now though. A walking zombie. A walking zombie who has been up all night and just got home a little while ago after one of the best nights fishing walleyes this zombie had in many years. The only sad part about tonight (very hard after action like we had tonight, pics and report to come) was experiencing all this with only a couple boats seen on the lake all night. No line up at the launch. No ML existing full moon waiting in line to play bumper boats for a piece of structure. No one other than my fishing partner to recap the evenings stories while loading up early morning. This sad feeling lasted all of a couple seconds because we did had a great night. With the weather we had tonight and those who pick up on what I am saying and know what used to be if a beautifully night was had the weekend before deer hunting, you get this. It's on like Donkey Kong and was even better last weekend is what was being said.

I guess my feelings & concerns in the end go to those who live and make their living on and around Mille Lacs. They are some great people, which I have great respect for. The real American Heroes who should be living "the dream" with this day and age, but are stuck in the quagmire that forms every year right after ice out. Their way of life is the key in keeping our way of life associated with Mille Lacs & the 'Going Up To Mille Lacs This Weekend' experience alive. You start drowning the resorts and business of Mille Lacs with negative mojo related to Tribal netting year after year, with just hope and a wishes as the answer, I am not sure what you will have as the out come. I recommended that you go up and check this out. Good luck.

[BrdHunter01]

Well said Shack. Although it will be brought up year after year after year until there is an end to the practice. And that is simply how it should be if you ask me. This is not a subject to just be throwin under the rug for local business sake. If anything its free marketing We MUST keep voicing our opinions and keep this subject hot! Its simply impossible to go up opening weekend and not have at least 10 conversations with various people about the netting practice. In fact I bet every single person I talk to opening weekend the subject is brought up. Is the fishing great on Mille Lacs? Of course. It simply doesn't matter how good the fishing is the subject will be brought up. Do the local resorts and business' want a end to this? Of course. Will there ever be an end? Not until we end the practice. Better get use to it

[Hory]

Shack,

Thanks for the input. You hit the nail on the head... I am NOT looking for scientific information within this forum (as I had already stated in my first post!) I want to see different sides of this issue. I find it valuable to hear from people who fish the lake daily, once every few years, or run businesses in the area even if the information is only second-hand or biased extremely. I am by no means passing off what I read in this forum as fact. I simply attempted to utiilze this forum's community of members as a way to see different viewpoints on the topic. What better way is there to gain INTRODUCORY opinions and viewpoints for an INFORMAL write-up than a forum filled with diverse people who share a specific hobbies related to the outdoors? Sorry if I was in the wrong to do so.

I also wanted to stress the idea that I don't have all the answers and never claimed to... I was just innocently looking for some varying opinions-all of which I respect and appreciate.