No more party hunting in Zone 3, SE MN

[Scott M]

By Doug Smith, Star Tribune

June 17, 2010

Under some of the biggest deer management changes in decades, hunters in southeast Minnesota this fall won't be able to shoot bucks with less than four antler points on one side.

They also won't be able to shoot and tag bucks for other hunters -- called "party hunting" -- long a tradition in Minnesota.

The moves, which likely will be controversial and have been discussed for five years, are intended to increase the numbers of trophy-sized bucks in the southeast. That's a goal supported by many hunters there, but not all.

"There's an interest in more mature bucks in the deer population throughout the state, but principally in the southeast," said Lou Cornicelli, Department of Natural Resources big game manager. "This will protect yearling deer and put more harvest pressure on female [deer]." That in turn will both help manage the deer population and eventually give hunters a crack at bigger bucks, Cornicelli said.

"This is a significant change in the way we manage deer in Minnesota," Dennis Simon, DNR wildlife section chief, said in a letter to his staff.

Cornicelli said he knows the change won't be greeted warmly by everyone. "We know a percentage will be real unhappy," he said. But he added, "I think hunters will come to enjoy it."

A survey of southeast deer hunters last year showed them about evenly split over the issue: 53 percent supported regulations to protect a majority of yearling bucks and 50 percent supported requiring hunters to shoot and tag their own bucks.

The DNR also will extend the 3A deer season in the southeast, now seven days, to nine days. And it will establish a four-day youth hunt for hunters ages 10 to 15 Oct. 21-24 in the southeast and some parts of the northwest. Southeast hunters supported that idea by a 54 percent margin in the survey.

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I don't deer hunt down there (yet), but I like this move. This is a rare part of the state that can support trophy bucks consistently, now they are afforded better protection. I know this kills some tradition and some folks will be upset, but with an honest investment in time and effort, I think people will still get a deer that want to fill the freezer.

[hockeybc69]

Great move.

[picksbigwagon]

I think this will be tough to enforce, but I will be interested to see what the overall population looks like down there in a couple years. I think if they keep antlerless harvest the same as it has been the past few years, this could really work. (And I was really never on board with this plan, but even this old dog is starting to see the light) Now I didn't see it, but does this rule apply to bow and muzzle loading seasons? Enforcement is going to be tough, especially in 349 and 346, lots of gravel roads to no where and some strong family traditions of party hunting and brown is down.

[PEATMOSS]

Yes, wonderful. Wonder how long til this spreads statewide. (by spread, I mean like cancer)

It's been a slow night at work and I just paged thru all 25 pages of the 2009 deer photos. The best thing about this new law is that we won't have to endure looking at all those grimy little 12-14 yr old brats and their cheesy smiles holding some forkhorn like they had really achieved something positive! First buck, bah! Just turns a guys stomach knowing that deer in 2-3 years coulda been some dedicated hunters 17th Poper.

[deerminator]

One buck for one hunter period? Kinda sounds like the legal bag limit statewide beforehand, doesn't it? It's just that there's no loophole anymore for some guy to plug four bucks on one tag for himself and three tags from fictional hunters or other hunters who had only spent a day or two in camp. I'm all in favor of it. It's not killing or its brown its down, it's deer hunting. It's about the hunt. If you put in the time and do it right, chances are right you'll get a fawn minimum if you're just looking for some venison.

As for the miniumn points, give me a break. I'm hoping the previous post was sarcastic. I know I'd have been jumping for joy with a forkhorn at age 12. Now I'd feel a little sheepish with a forkhorn but that's because I have hunted for awhile. Give the new hunters some enjoyment. And don't regulate for trophy bucks. What's next, you can't shoot does unless they're "big enough?"

[riverkid21]

i'm pretty confident it was sarcastic.

[Jameson]

HERE is the DNR news release. Looks likes minors won't have to adhere to the APR. The MEA hunt will take place in zone 3 and NW Minnesota.

Agreed, just like cancer, likely to spread and be detrimental. (not sarcasm)

Wonder if an adult can carry a bow during the youth MEA hunt while hunting with a youth?

[laughterin]

[hockeybc69]

Now the MEA hunt I have a problem with.

Just how many kids are going to actually be introduced to hunting for that particular hunt?

My thoughts, you better get a kid into hunting and start a bit smaller. Taking a greenhorn out to shoot his/her first animal and doing it with deer just isnt smart.

Introduce a kid to one of many small game ops. Cripes.

[Coach1310]

I am interested in how the enforcement will work and what kind of difference we will see in say, 5 years. The one thing I find interesting....

IF you wanted to hunt in MN and get the best chance at a trophy buck, what part of the state would you pick??? Probably the SE....

It seems to me that this part of the state is already above the norm in regards to the density of mature bucks. Wouldn't this have been more bendeficial to try somewhere else in the state? I know, the hunters down there were proactive in getting this change, but I don't think we will be able to calculate the real effect of these types of rule changes unless it is attempted in a "run of the mill" MN location.... should be interesting

[InTheNorthwoods]

I am interested in how the enforcement will work and what kind of difference we will see in say, 5 years. The one thing I find interesting....

IF you wanted to hunt in MN and get the best chance at a trophy buck, what part of the state would you pick??? Probably the SE....

It seems to me that this part of the state is already above the norm in regards to the density of mature bucks. Wouldn't this have been more bendeficial to try somewhere else in the state? I know, the hunters down there were proactive in getting this change, but I don't think we will be able to calculate the real effect of these types of rule changes unless it is attempted in a "run of the mill" MN location.... should be interesting

1. Enforcement - This is a non issue. How effective is enforcement of any rule now? The people who obey the laws will continue to do so. Those that don't, will always try to find ways to break the laws. Enforcement in MN is no different than enforcement in any other state that restricts party hunting (many states) and antler points (several states) - there will always be rulebreakers that aren't caught. As to where we'll be in 5 years, I would suspect most people will have forgotten that the rules were changed. Hunter opportunity (for shootable bucks) will go up drastically after the first year or two and approach or surpass the oppotunity at present as young bucks are allowed to live another year or two. Consequently, after a year or two of noticeable harvest decline, I would predict similar harvest numbers to what we see today (minus the inflation caused by the party hunting loophole to the one buck each rule). Also, hunter satisfaction may be at an all time high as the number of people "shooting their buck of a lifetime" increases dramatically - I've never met a meat hunter who, even after 25 years of maybe not even shooting a buck, wasn't absolutely floating in the clouds after shooting a nice buck.

2. Why SE MN - The mistake that was made was that these rules weren't applied in the entire state (or not at all). With that said, the SE part of the state is the easiest to implement these rules with the least impact. SE MN has great habitat and good deer numbers and it would not be uncommon for a yearling buck to grow 4 points on one side - now choose another part of the state, where habitat and deer numbers are not as good and very few yearling bucks (and even some 2.5 year olds) will not grow 4 points on one side. Add to this that there are already more mature bucks in SE MN than in some other parts of the state, and the result is that hunter opportunity is not impacted as much as if they had implemented these rules in zone 1 in northern MN forest lands. Baby steps...

[Getanet]

I've commented many times that I'm against a restriction on party hunting and/or points restriction. However, if they're going to test it I'm glad they picked one area instead of the entire state. Hey, if the results are as good as some people think they'll be, I'll keep an open mind.

Personally, I hope it doesn't spread. While I don't agree with the idea of someone filling tags for family members that don't actually hunt, I hope anti-party hunting folks will understand there are many hunters that party hunt ethically. If I've just helped make a deer drive through some thick cover and I helped kick a buck out to someone in my party, I don't have a problem with them filling my tag. They'd do the same for me.

[Heartman]

Peatmoss, don't appreciate your perspective. As a 12 year old, I would've been darn proud of a forkhorn - let's stay above the dirty water on this one.

[candiru]

Don't worry Heartman he doesn't feel that way, he is being sarcastic.

[Gus]

I think they did a pretty good job of structuring the change. If you read the whole article you'll find the exemptions.

Sounds like youth hunters will be able to shoot bucks no matter how small.

Sounds like there will be expanded youth hunts available.

Sounds like you can still party hunt for does.

I think the only thing they eliminated is cross tagging of bucks for adult hunters.

I agree it will be interesting to see how this turns out in 5 years. With all the exemptions they put in there, I think most hunters can still be happy and live with the change. Hopefully it works out for the best. If not, back to the drawing board.

[nonteepical]

thought i'd be dead before i saw deer management changes in this state, now i hope i can survive the heart attack!

[Jim916]

I like part of it so hopefully we can see more mature bucks. But we all know what a lot of mature bucks brings, and that is more people. I am expecting to lose our hunting spot in 2-3 years on someone who has more money than us.

[lakevet]

It's just that there's no loophole anymore for some guy to plug four bucks on one tag for himself and three tags from fictional hunters or other hunters who had only spent a day or two in camp. .

"

That has been illegal for years. Just read any old regs book. Hunters must be afield all at the same time using the same type of weapon. What you are talking about is an enforcement issue of existing laws, not a loop hole issue.

lakevet

[lakevet]

Correct me if I am wrong but if I am reading the regulations correctly, you can party hunt and cross tag bucks in Buffalo county wisconsin (as well as the rest of the state) during both the firearm and muzzy season. Buffalo county I believe is the #1 county in the US for Book Bucks. Does Minnesota know something Wisconsin doesn't? Same thing for the big buck mecca called Iowa. During both shotgun seasons you can party hunt and cross tag bucks. Why do we want Missouri regs ( the state I hear most often referred to as the reason to ban party hunt/cross tagging) when our close neighbors are able to maintain the party hunt and cross tag tradition and still produce the big bucks some desire so much? I think that the effort to ban cross tag/party hunt will be of little effect and other routes should be pursued.

Lakevet

[PEATMOSS]

Your posts are well written and very civil Lakevet. I try to maintain my composure and civility as well, but my snide and sarcastic side seems to get the better of me sometimes.

[Big Dave2]

That has been illegal for years. Just read any old regs book. Hunters must be afield all at the same time using the same type of weapon. What you are talking about is an enforcement issue of existing laws, not a loop hole issue.

lakevet

I wish we could put this post up as a "sticky". I don't know how many times we are going to have to explain this to the "big antler" crowd............

[deerminator]

I know its always been illegal, it's just that now with no party hunting, this illegal way of claiming you are legally hunting will theoretically be eliminated. Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favor of additional legislation or getting rid of party hunting, actually. I'm just thinking it's kind of ridiculous that people get so worked up that they'll have to shoot and tag their own deer on their own licenses. Seems kind of silly. You can still hunt and carry on all the traditions of deer camp and so on. The legal bag limit hasn't changed for everyone on the hunt if I'm not mistaken?

The sad thing is that the people who really want to shoot way more deer will just buy tags for their wives and mother-in-laws anyway. So regardless of party hunting being eliminated, the people who shot many deer over the limit before via party hunting (illegally), will do so now with a tag for grandma and their girlfriend.

[lakevet]

Correct me if I am wrong but if I am reading the regulations correctly, you can party hunt and cross tag bucks in Buffalo county wisconsin (as well as the rest of the state) during both the firearm and muzzy season. Buffalo county I believe is the #1 county in the US for Book Bucks. Does Minnesota know something Wisconsin doesn't? Same thing for the big buck mecca called Iowa. During both shotgun seasons you can party hunt and cross tag bucks. Why do we want Missouri regs ( the state I hear most often referred to as the reason to ban party hunt/cross tagging) when our close neighbors are able to maintain the party hunt and cross tag tradition and still produce the big bucks some desire so much? I think that the effort to ban cross tag/party hunt will be of little effect and other routes should be pursued.

Lakevet

I am bumping this for 2 reasons.

1) to see if it is accurate that Iowa and Wisconsin maintain the tradition of party hunting and cross tagging bucks while still producing lots of book bucks and if not please correct me. I have not hunted deer except in Minnesota and am getting my info from their websites.

2)I would be interested in hearing the reason why Minnesota's evil party hunters that cross tag bucks decimate them and you can't have big bucks under those conditions but that doesn't happen in Iowa and Wisconsin

Seems to me that we could get along instead of fighting each other. I would hate to admit Wisconsin and Iowa are doing a better job with this than we are.

I would really like to hear from Lou on this. I respect your expertise and opinion, just don't see the scientifically significant measurable facts to back up banning party hunt/cross tagging would result in a substantial increase in mature bucks. Why would the DNR in Wisc and Iowa manage contrary to those facts if they existed? Appears to be more of opinion/sentiment/low percentage decision than a high percentage irrefutable fact. Other changes (move the hunt off the rut as Iowa DNR states on its website and what Minnesota did back when it was the #1 book buck factory WHILE having party hunting and cross tagging- this is what Iowa & Wisc. are doing now) would have way more impact and not be as divisive.

lakevet

[pulleye16]

When is all this "trophy" hunting and fishing going to stop? Everyone now days wants to go out and get the biggest animal all the time. Is that not what a trophy is, a once a blue moon catch/kill? I would just like them to manage the "amount" of deer and not to worry too much about the "quality"! There are plent of areas that natualy produce big animals (try scouting). I feel MONEY is what is talking here. We're trying to grow our lakes to produce record walleye to gain money from fishermen and now we want out-of-state hunters to spend money here once we can show we have record whitetail. Land values will sky-rocket, leases will only be affordable to the rich and have fun hunting on private land down there!!!!

To the above post, I would love to see us get off the rut, but again I think its about money. People are able to hunt both states then bringing in revenue. But yes-if we want big bucks IMO, it would probably work better getting off the rut hunts.

[Bear55]

Correct me if I am wrong but if I am reading the regulations correctly, you can party hunt and cross tag bucks in Buffalo county wisconsin (as well as the rest of the state) during both the firearm and muzzy season. Buffalo county I believe is the #1 county in the US for Book Bucks. Does Minnesota know something Wisconsin doesn't?

It all comes down to being a little more selective when you are out hunting, I doubt you see very many young bucks shot in Buffalo County. I'm pretty sure MN does not know more then WI or Iowa but the people who hunt those states have a different mentality and they shoot a lot of nice mature bucks. I don't know what the best approach is but I know a lot of people aren't really happy with the buck population (maybe 50%?)and the current regs don't seem to help with that.

[96trigger]

For many of you guys that are posting, how many have hunted zone 3? A lot of the negativity comes from north of the cities. If you haven't hunted down here to know what its like and what is going on, why are you so negative? I'm assuming that you are scared because if it works, it might become statewide. Relax, zone 3 can be the guinea pig. Many of the hunters in this part of the state did push for this. It's what many of us wanted, regardless to what the Northern part of the state said. Believe it or not, its a lot different to hunt deer down here. I appreciate your opinions, but the fact is it's a done deal.

I don't see any major changes in the way we hunt. The kids can still shoot whatever, we still get 9 days. The only thing we can't shoot are forks and baskets (and down here, even many baskets would be legal 8's).

Relax on the DNR, they are doing what many of us down here wanted. Many of us get tired of seeing those little fork and basket bucks that get passed on all year by many, get stacked up like chord wood because one guy shot 4 of them throughout the week and used his hunting party's tags. Yeah, stopping that sounds terrible doesn't it?

Beleive it or not, the zone 3 hunters are not going to push for this to become state wide. If you want or don't want these changes, you have to take charge of your own zone.

[Bear55]

Well said Trigger, how many times have we seen people complain about lotto areas getting APR's? That just isn't going to happen.

[Jameson]

Their were a couple of Lotto areas in zone 3 last year. Are their none this year?

[Big Dave2]

I don't know if anyone ever stops a second to consider this but the reason Wisconsin and Iowa grow so many large deer has nothing to do with legislation, it is good habitat.

Why do you think Minnesota grows more large deer in SE Minnesota but not so much in NW Minnesota. It is the habitat and conditions of the area.

It's not rocket Science, some people just need to realize and accept that they live in Minnesota not Iowa or Wisconsin.

[mrklean]

very well said Trigger, i have said it before Minnesota is so different in the way people hunt thoughout the state everyone hunts different we can only wait and see what will happen thoughout the state