No more party hunting in Zone 3, SE MN

[LightningBG]

Cody, quit comparing to other states. We increased, its a good thing.

If drunk driving deaths were up 20% in Minnesota, but up 30% in all of the other states around us, is that a reason to celebrate? No. This is the same (but inverse)

[Getanet]

Great point LBG. I also think many people assume with party hunting for bucks that it's a free for all with some guys shooting bucks and hijacking tags from others in their party later.

Gifting a tag is usually done under specific circumstances. For example, during a deer drive where one of the drivers still has an open buck tag. Or during the last few days of the season. Or perhaps allowing an older or younger member of the party to shoot your buck. All of that is discussed and figured out well in advance.

People aren't bullied into giving up a buck tag and it's not taken lightly when someone is offered the use of a tag.

[Getanet]

The two most important quotes of that article are:

1) He’s part of a hunting cooperative in Union County that currently covers 4,000 acres.

2) The bottom line is you have to let bucks reach older ages. Whether it’s rugged habitat, selective harvest or restricted access...

Yep, we can certainly make MN a Top 5 state for B&C bucks, maybe even #1. All we need to minimize hunting opportunities to only those with large tracks of private land - or those willing to pay to hunt private land.

Sounds like a swell idea.

[pulleye16]

Good article and I agree with it...4-9,000 acres of private land with food plots, selective harvest, and year round forest managment will produce record bucks...oh and you need a lot of money!

[nonteepical]

all the QDMA guys are saying is save the 1.5 year olds from near extinction every season. our buck harvest is 70% 1.5yr and younger annually. harvest 2.5 year olds and older. QDMA isn't trophy management, thats what lee and tiffany and outfitters do on their property, whole different ballgame. Boone and Crockett deer are the micheal jordans of the deer world, pretty tough to grow them, 150's aren't.

[nonteepical]

The two most important quotes of that article are:

1) He’s part of a hunting cooperative in Union County that currently covers 4,000 acres.

2) The bottom line is you have to let bucks reach older ages. Whether it’s rugged habitat, selective harvest or restricted access...

Yep, we can certainly make MN a Top 5 state for B&C bucks, maybe even #1. All we need to minimize hunting opportunities to only those with large tracks of private land - or those willing to pay to hunt private land.

Sounds like a swell idea.

those large tracts of private land are land owners in a cooperative with each other( one could have 40a another 160a and so on) in a management aggreement not to shoot 1.5 year old and younger or racks narrower than it's ears, unless taken by a youth, in order to get the buck age structure up. deer hunting is changing, you might as well try to understand whats going on because it's gaining speed. QDMA is alot more than shooting deer and the best part is "deer hunting" is now 12 months out of the year.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I'd like to know if anyone on here that is for APR's, QDM, ect... are people who exclusively hunt public land or if you all have private lands you own or lease?

I have a sneeking suspicion most of those in favor of these changes are all private land owners or have access and hunt private land.

I hunt exclusively public land and I'm against it. And a big reason is because I know how fast I will loose out on my hunting opportunities (faster then I currently am) due to the land grab that will innevitable occur once MN becomes a "destination" state for "trophies"!

[schmoe147]

This topic went from no party hunting to talking about point restrictions. Well my take on that is NO. How can you tell a kid who hasnt shot a deer he has to pass on that 6 pointer because it isnt big enough. I myself will shoot nothing smaller than an 8 pointer but that is my choice. If you pay for a license its your choice to shoot what you want. Yes I wish we had bigger bucks but until people are willing to pass on small ones good luck.

[Getanet]

those large tracts of private land are land owners in a cooperative with each other( one could have 40a another 160a and so on) in a management aggreement not to shoot 1.5 year old and younger or racks narrower than it's ears, unless taken by a youth, in order to get the buck age structure up. deer hunting is changing, you might as well try to understand whats going on because it's gaining speed. QDMA is alot more than shooting deer and the best part is "deer hunting" is now 12 months out of the year.

I understand, I just don't like it. If you own or have access to large chunks of private land knock yourself out. Spend those 12 months a year doing everything you can to make it a buck utopia. I don't hold that against anyone because I'd do the same. What I wouldn't try to do is push legislation that restricts what others do simply to meet my goals. It's fairly easy to see how QDM initiatives benefit private land hunters and not public land hunters.

[nonteepical]

private zone 240 and public in zone 159. it will make state land better because on state land current mentality is if it's brown it's down. private land you can impliment apr's, if it's not the law.

[CodyDawg]

I will continue to look and mention the numbers to illustrate that MN is lagging behind the rest of the states. I just dont understand how some can say how great it is in MN when we are getting our lunch eaten by other states. Why is that so hard to understand. We went up a little, other states went up a LOT. I think the stock scenario was a good one, which would you buy? I would be buying IA stock. I would even be buying IN stock before ours. How sad that is.

And kids are exempt on the APRs, so that is a nonissue.

As for the public land vs private land issue. This is the ONLY thing that will help the odds of shooting a big buck on public land. the hunters that hunt public land should be all over this. Get rid of the "if its brown its down" mentality and public land will start producing some nice bucks.

[candiru]

I am one that is also worried that this is just the start or the foot in the door. It has been said on here many times. Right now it is just about saving some 1.5 YO. bucks. A few years down the road the pressure will be on to let more 2.5 to 3.5 YO. bucks live. We have seen it this way with many too many things in life.

I also believe it would not be in the best interest in the future of hunting if the person of modest means is priced out of it.

[candiru]

These other states had very low deer populations not that long ago. That is why they moved up so much. Life is not a danged competition. Get out there and enjoy yourselves.

[NoWiser]

I hunt 100% public land in northern MN (never was fortunate enough to have private land to hunt), and in some areas with fairly low densities of deer. I would LOVE to see no party hunting for bucks implemented statewide. APR wouldn't bother me one bit either, but I'm still on the fence of whether I support that idea or not.

[Getanet]

CodyDawg - it's probably safe to say you hunt private land as well. You point to B&C numbers as the goal we should be striving for. As I've said, a main component to those numbers in other states are restricted hunting opportunities through the privatization and manipulation of those lands.

You keep using stocks as an analogy. Many people own various priced stock. Should only the people that can afford Berkshire Hathaway be allowed to invest?

[LightningBG]

You know, we could grow monster bucks if we just banned hunting all together, right?

[Getanet]

Absolutely. Or we could implement size limitations - nothing over an 8pt can be harvested. Than all those mature bucks with the best genes could breed like crazy.

[LOTWSvirgin]

You know, we could grow monster bucks if we just banned hunting all together, right?

Just gun hunting

[Bear55]

Nice find Lightning, that kind of helps us fill in the last 10 years a little better. MN actually did pretty well with almost 200 BC bucks in the past decade, better then I would have guessed.

The thing some of us are trying to point out is that other states are doing a little better job of letting their deer reach maturity. Anyone can see the trend that is happening with the numbers, deer populations are growing all across the country so its no surprise to see BC entries at an all time high, but look at the trend within the trend. After being the #1 big buck state from the 1950's through the 1980's we suddenly drop off the charts in the 90's and 2000's.

Now maybe we are doing just fine because we are hold our own, but you see how fast other states have climbed up the charts and it bring up some questions about how they are doing it. Is it just a coincidence that we fell from the #1 spot about the same time QDM slowly started to become popular in the 90's? I've said it many times, MN as a state has not embraced QDM as well as other states and I think the numbers reflect this.

I should also state for somewhat that had asked earlier that I hunt public land 95% of the time save for a 40 of private land that I bowhunt on from time to time so I am a public land hunter that is all for letting those little bucks grow up.

[pulleye16]

CodyDawg- Looks like most the B&C bucks from MN are coming from the arrow head which I believe is mostly public land. Not sure were the other states are getting them but I can bet its from Private land. Could you verify this? If our public is doing just as good as their private, why should we change?

[LightningBG]

I have a suspicion that everyone on here wants bigger bucks.

And, I have a suspicion that most on here practice some sort of QDM personally.

The problem comes in trying to legislate it. I think that's going too far. Your not helping the community as a whole if your taking away from just as many as your providing to.

If the hard core QDM guys really want to get rid of the "brown its down" mentality, then work for it socially. Put up some billboards or fliers or something. Start a club and get kids to join with QDM info and incentives (like getting your picture on the web if you took an 8pt or greater. Get listed as a "conservator" if you didn't take any deer at all, and get nothing if you took a 6 or smaller.)

[Bear55]

Lets update the all time numbers based off the article Lightning found. There might be some overlap here and I am sure these number are not 100% accurate but its for fun anyway. I dropped Michigan because they didn't have numbers and just gave Texas 180 guesstimate since the article said we finished 10th ahead of them.

State............1830-2009.....1830-1979.....1980-2001.....2000-2009

1.Illinois.........1091.............43..............509.........539

2.Wisconsin.....1053.............194.............395.........464

3.Iowa...........964.............108.............507.........349

4.Minnesota....801.............315.............293.........193

5.Kentucky.....591.............37..............242.........312

6.Missouri.......570.............41..............244.........285

7.Ohio...........544.............36..............199.........309

8.Kansas........512.............20..............235.........257

9.Texas..........496.............157.............159........180

We are still among the big 4 but I don't think it will be long before the 5-8 states pass us up. Iowa slowed down a little if you can call 350BC bucks slowing down but wow are Illinois and Wisconsin strong!

[Bear55]

I have a suspicion that everyone on here wants bigger bucks.

And, I have a suspicion that most on here practice some sort of QDM personally.

The problem comes in trying to legislate it. I think that's going too far. Your not helping the community as a whole if your taking away from just as many as your providing to.

If the hard core QDM guys really want to get rid of the "brown its down" mentality, then work for it socially. Put up some billboards or fliers or something. Start a club and get kids to join with QDM info and incentives (like getting your picture on the web if you took an 8pt or greater. Get listed as a "conservator" if you didn't take any deer at all, and get nothing if you took a 6 or smaller.)

Lightning I can totally agree with this. I tried without much success to get my group to practice QDM, it lasted all of about 20 minutes opening morning before the first spike was shot. I did convince a few of the die hards that I hunt with to pass the little bucks and we have had some success and its been fun. Now I take the soft sell approach to QDM and wait for the guys who are ready, they usually come to me and I am willing to tell them everything I know. Sometimes they jump in, other times they take a wait and see approach. It usually helps if the hunter has recently bagged a nice buck, suddenly they see the light and are ready to pass those little bucks.

I think the younger generations are more open to change and can easily see the benefits of QDM, they also tend to be less stubborn. On the downside they don't have the patience or the work ethic (for the lack of a better word) that the older generations bring to the table so its kind of a mixed bag. I still get behind changes in regulations some of the time because I think it can help jump start the process. Either way I will still keep doing my thing and passing the little spikes, forks, and basket racked 8 pointers and spread as much knowledge as I can.

[picksbigwagon]

12 pages, and no edits, thanks guys for keeping this within forum rules.....

Now, I posted on page one and have watched this and a couple things have stood out to me: first of all it does seem to me that a couple of groups got their wishes completely granted with this change in legislation. APR? I understand and have witnessed what letting the little ones walk can do (area 349 where I used to hunt until it was leased out from underneath us). I can support that one, it does make you check twice or three times before you pull the trigger and that is a good thing.

The party hunting piece basically means that when you are making a drive, NO ONE SHOOTS HORNS...pretty simple rule for your party I guess.

The adding of two days to the first season basically will eliminate the 3B season. The desire to hunt 3B (I love hunting the 3B season) will decline drastically due to the fact that the deer will be run over hill and dale from the 3A for 9 days. This change has no affect on the size of the deer, just sour grapes from the change 5 or 6 years ago.

Do the rules affect bow hunters as well? are bow hunters no longer able to shoot a basket 6 or spike?

To truly help out the deer population (and I have been saying this since last January when this all started) NO ONE HUNTS from the End of October until the Second week of December. That protects the primary and secondary rut. No bow hunting, no muzzleloading, no firearms.....I think that would help those 1.5-2.5 yr. old buck....

[ejf76]

lets throw out the other states and focus on Iowa and Wisconsin since they are the most alike in climate and nutrition (and closest geographically) to Zone 3. They continue to grow big bucks for a few reasons. 1. A much higher percentage of private land where hunters do not shoot the young bucks (in most cases do not shoot 2.5 yr olds) 2. Their hunting season begins after the heavy rut action is over. 3. They have done a MUCH better job of promoting a culture of hunters less into killing and more into shooting quality whitetails.

To start with, the cross-tag complainers, especially the hunters in Zone 3 (which is where the rule changes are taking place), really do not have much of a leg to stand on when complaining about the cross-tagging of BUCKS rule change. The majority of the hunters have the access to an either sex or management tag. There is no reason a hunter needs to shoot more than one buck...none. Some states allow a hunter to have a buck tag per weapon for multiple weapons(bow, gun, muzzy), but MN does not allow that because it is a ONE buck per person state. It is about time they closed up the hypocrisy in that saying.

Onto the bigger bucks....

The best solution would be to follow WI and IA and move the hunting season out of the rut. However Zone 3 has an A and B season, where many properties (including all state lands) have two groups of hunters that go through every year. Moving the season back to be consistent with the WI season would either force everyone into the same season (causing huge conflicts over hunting rights/areas), or push the B season back into mid-December(much colder and would likely lose hunters due to it not being over Tx-giving). These options are just not something the DNR could change and still be serving its consituents.

The next best option for the DNR is to look into APR. Now I understand the push back against this law. In fact the last two years i have gotten my college roommate into deer hunting. Last year (age 25) he shot his first buck, a forkhorn, which is now illegal. However I do understand the value of not shooting the small bucks. I have the opportunity along with other members of my family to hunt a large chunk of private land which is completely surrounded by state land. Up until 5-6 years ago, there was little restriction on the land to hunters. Many people (friends, family, neighbors) hunted it and shot whatever they wanted to and had been that way for decades. About once every 3-4 years someone would shoot a buck they would think about putting on the wall or that could be considered a "trophy."

In the last 5-6 years, the ownership changed hands (family reasons) and some of those hunters have not been allowed back and others we have convinced to not shoot the small bucks. In the last three seasons we have killed 5 "trophyies" (130-165" is the range) off the property, 2 with a bow. That has meant making the tough desicion to pass up small bucks. But it goes to show it is possible to change the quality of the bucks you see in a short amount of time. The land does not have food plots, it just utilizes the existing timber and surrounding farmland to harbor quality deer habitat.

These rules will make it possible for all hunters to enjoy the same type of success. Will it be the same as hunting managed private ground...I am sure not, but I am hoping for the day I can drive through the state property near our area and see people with P&Y class deer on their hoods and in the back of the truck on a regular basis, for the sake of all MN deer hunters.

[pulleye16]

"These rules will make it possible for all hunters to enjoy the same type of success. Will it be the same as hunting managed private ground...I am sure not, but I am hoping for the day I can drive through the state property near our area and see people with P&Y class deer on their hoods and in the back of the truck on a regular basis, for the sake of all MN deer hunters."

Sorry-just my opinion, but I'd be bored seeing P&Y on a regular basis. I like the thrill of someone getting a large deer ever 4-5 years. It makes it fun and interesting to me. This is, and I hate to say it, the way we think now days... we always need the biggest and the best RIGHT NOW! Like people said ealier, what happens when we get sick of 150's?

[nonteepical]

CodyDawg- Looks like most the B&C bucks from MN are coming from the arrow head which I believe is mostly public land. Not sure were the other states are getting them but I can bet its from Private land. Could you verify this? If our public is doing just as good as their private, why should we change?

St. Louis county has always been a top b&c county in minnesota for a couple reasons, lighter hunting pressure meaning more acres per hunter and alot of remote areas the average hunter dosen't want to go to, leading to one thing, OLDER AGE CLASS deer!

[picksbigwagon]

human population density has an affect? (Just Kidding, I fully realize that it has a huge affect)

[lakevet]

SE Minnesota has 50% more hunting pressure/hunters than neighboring NE Iowa.

[lakevet]

3. They have done a MUCH better job of promoting a culture of hunters less into killing and more into shooting quality whitetails.

I agree. They also allow buck cross tagging because of tradition, and since hunters willingly pass on bucks by choice, it is possible for both groups to enjoy their style of hunt without the unnecessary conflict that is now happening here.