Wolves vs. hunter in Star Trib

[upnorth]

Just because one hunts something doesn't mean they believe in hunting everything. For me if you are gonna eat it, hunt and kill it, if you aren't gonna eat let it be. Just my personal beliefs.

[Duffman]

Interestingly enough they weren't able to block wolf hunting in Wyoming and Montana, so perhaps they won't be able to in Minnesota either. Of course the legislature gets their say also.

That's ranchin' country, a whole different set of ideals out there. The only good predator is a dead predator. Not to mention most of the population of those two states are rural. I honestly don't think you can compare MN with the western states when it comes to the wolf issue. Wolves had not existed in those states for quite a while before the reintroduction. We seem to have somewhat been able to co-exist while living with wolves because they have always been around in MN.

[caseymcq]

... Whether that meant 4, 400, or unlimited permits, we would have a hunting season already. ...

USFWS was moving towards delisting the wolves in 2008 (actually had them delisted until a judge decided that they shouldn't be). There wouldn't be able to be a hunting season on them until five years after delisting. I believe it is a provision in the ESA that requires a population to remain viable under a state management plan before management (in the form of hunting or trapping) would be allowed.

There is more to it than just the wolves as far as "anti's". The wolf has other implications for resource management beyond themselves. There are federal agencies that have to take into consideration what type of impact managment of any natural resource would have on any species that could be influenced by management activity. For example, if the US Forest Service wants to manage forest vegetation, say through timber harvest, prescribed burning, timber stand improvement, planting, etc; there are a whole host of plants and animals that have to be considered when analyzing the impacts of the various types of management activity. Wolves and lynx are a prime example. The amount of timber stands in a young age class and road densities are one example of considerations for lynx. Road densities have to be considered when analyzing impacts to wolves. Moose and (for obvious reasons)deer are not covered by ESA, so analysis for impacts of management activity are not REQIURED to consider deer or moose (although they may because they are a species of interest for other reason, game species, cultural/tribal interests). The fewer species having to be considered in analyzing the impacts of management activity the less intense / indepth analysis the Forest Service has to complete in order to meet the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA).

If you ever wonder why it takes such considerable effort for a federal agency, like the Forest Service, Fish & Wildlife Service, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, to "do something" take one look at NEPA and it will be explained. The intent of the process is good. To inform the public these agencies are managing resources for and to document the analysis that has gone into making sure the resources are managed appropriately. An unfortunate consequence of NEPA, however, is that it has become an avenue for anyone with disagreeing management philosophies to use the courts to impede management activity.

[thedeadsea]

That's ranchin' country, a whole different set of ideals out there. The only good predator is a dead predator.

[Duffman]

Quote:

Just think how many ducks and grouse we would have if fur prices went back up.

It's sort of hard to raise ducks when we've drained all our sloughs, predators or not. I don't hunt deer, but I was a very active waterfowler for a couple decades. As for grouse, there might be more around if the price of feathers goes up, seeing that besides man, avian predators are the grouses greatest enemy.

[upnorth]

Originally Posted By: Duffman

That's ranchin' country, a whole different set of ideals out there. The only good predator is a dead predator.

Those ideals sound good to me..... Just think how many ducks and grouse we would have if fur prices went back up.

Sounds to me you have a hard with the competition. There is no guarantee that eliminating a predator would increase the populations of game. Even if you reduce the predators the environment still has to be able to support the said game. And then you wind up with weak and sickly game out there. And the weak of the species would start to breed and that would not be in anyone's best interest.

And for any kind of fowl there are a lot of other predators out there. Down on the St. Louis River this spring an Eagle totally decimated a brood of geese.

[delcecchi]

MSG from Rochester. Send Eagles.

Down here the only predator seems to be guys with shotguns and they aren't getting the job done.

:-)

[Silver Scale]

Caseymcg.

Careful your starting to sound like a NEPA Nerd.....

[Steve Foss]

Originally Posted By: Steve Foss

The same antis who sued to block the federal de-listing will be the ones fighting at the state level to block a wolf hunting season in the event that the wolf is eventually de-listed in Minnesota.

I'm not just talking about Minnesota antis, who have solid numbers in this state. I'm talking all the anti organizations nationwide, because as the last stronghold for wolves in the lower 48 before we allowed the species to recover, Minnesota will be a rallying point for them. They have settled in for a long campaign, and they have numbers and money behind them.

Whether they are able to actually succeed in blocking a season at the state level remains to be seen, but have no doubt they'll be in there trying.

And the anti's have the wind at their back being that us as hunters can't even agree on whether there should or shouldn't be a wolf season.

[caseymcq]

Caseymcg.

Careful your starting to sound like a NEPA Nerd.....

I know, I know... I am trying to get away from it but just keep gettin pulled back in.

Maybe moving to Duluth will give me some cushion.

[Silver Scale]

CaseyMcq

Moving to Duluth? Congrats I think. LOL

[jparrucci]

Sorry to beat the dead horse some more, but here is a cut and paste from the DNR weekly CO reports. For those that think wolves behavior hasn't changed over the last 30 or so years...

"CO Dan Starr (Tower) focused on very high fishing pressure with success found to be spotty. An encounter with an apparently healthy wolf left CO Starr shaking his head in disbelief. The wolf came out to an open field area towards CO Starr’s parked truck and stood 40 yards away. As the CO exited the truck, the wolf did not leave until Starr walked towards it. Never running, it stopped numerous times as it circled downwind in the cover of some scattered Jack pines. Walleye fishing was found to be slow, with extra line, no fishing license, no trout stamp, and recreational vehicle violations found."

I love seeing timberwolves, and wish I would see them even more often. What I would like to see is a glimpse of them, and then them seeing/smelling me and trotting off. That sure doesn't seem to be the behavior of an animal with a whole lot of fear of humans.

[Steve Foss]

I've witnessed that type of behavior in wolves several times, but haven't been in wolf country over a long enough stretch of years to have a valid opinion on whether it reflects a change in behavior.

[jparrucci]

I'm relatively young (30) and by no means am I a wolf expert. I just know when I was a young teenager, when a wolf saw or smelled me, it would be gone in a flash. Not enough of encounters personally or scientific to say there is a for sure change in their actions, but I have noticed a very large difference in my run ins with them over the last few years. I know when I see coyotes then bolt, when I see bears they bolt. Wolves over the last few years have seem to be almost as intersted in me as I am in them. I don't think we are at the point where the dog and I need to be in chain mail while grouse hunting, but it has gotten to the point where I am concerned. I for one would like to see wolf numbers increase, but also a season on them.

Fun story that took place 3 seasons ago north of Brainard (same pond where I had a cougar run in) We jump shoot wood ducks on opener, it is always a great time and my favorite hunting trip of the year. We set up on the pond the second morning waiting for legal shooting time. From prior year stupidty, we all agree to wait a little while after first legal light so we can all see more clearly. 4 of us are spread out about 50 yard apart on a pond.

It was a humid morning with some fog around the pond and low laying areas. I am hunkered down waiting for the woodies to drop from the trees which they do and land in the pond. We try to wait for some teal or mallards to appear to and take a mixed bag if at all possible. A few of the local woodies on that pond are out eating their morning breakfast when I hear something meandering along the treeline behind me. I am sitting in a beaver rut, and there are deer tracks all around me and I never think twice about what it is approaching me. As I said, it is fog and DEAD calm. As it approaches, I never turn to look since there are wood ducks in front of me a ways, and they spook so easily I try not to so much as flinch.

As the animal gets closer, I can hear every step it takes, and then each breath. At this point, it can't be more than 10-15 yards behind me in the woods. I hear it stop and start really sniffing. I think it has finally winded me, and eventually it slowly moves on past me continuing down the shoreline just into the woods. I'm just hoping at this point the deer doesn't kick up the ducks. It works its way down near where my friend is sitting. I am staring at the ducks out in front of me waiting for some more to pour in and get some good shooting. Just a minute or two later, shotgun blast errupt and I see my friend unloading. As I glance the pond for ducks on the wing, to my suprise I see a timberwolf scrambling to get back on shore and bolt into the woods. The wolf was after the same ducks as us, and went to jump them from the shore. Scared the one guy half to death, as it jumped into the water pretty much right next to him. He actually got one of those ducks, as did another guy as they flew out the other way. The one guy said something to the extent of "that was a big coyote" (we heard them as we were pulling up yelping a long ways away) As I stared in disbelief, I informed him it was a timberwolf that was within a few feet of him. That about when I realize that it had walked within a couple of yards of me with my back to it, and I never even gave it a second thought, thinking the whole time it was a deer.

I just wished I could have seen the look and both his, and the wolfs faces. FYI, the wolf JUST missed grabbing a hen wood duck according to the fried. Needless to say, when I hear an animal in the woods now, I ALWAYS turn to see what it is.