The Griz is not allowed to continue Guiding...

[Sandmannd]

Griz has been on that river for 30 years. I haven't heard of an accident with him. I actually haven't heard of an accident with a guide that I can remember. When you are out there with others in your boat (reguardless if guiding or not) you dang well better take care of them and I believe most do.

What kills me is you need this license for the river, but a 19 year old can pilot a 20 person launch on Mille Lacs with nothing.

[jigginjim]

The guys operating launches on Mille lacs do have to have a pilots qualification, which is required by the state. It is for ALL boats over 20ft long.

[bturck]

Guides on Mille Lacs definitley have a license to operate that launch it is displayed in the wheel house by law.

[harvey lee]

If the law states one needs the license, then the Griz should not be allowed without one. Does not matter if he is the best anywhere or has 100 years of expierence.

He needs to play by the same rules as all the other guides.

Thats only fair.

[Ed Carlson]

The Red River also requires the same USCG certification as LOTW, Rainy, Mississippi and Missouri Rivers. All guides be they from ND or MN or anywhere... need to certify to operate on the Red River of the North as it is still listed as a waterway of commerce under the controle of the USCG. I went through the training and certification process also to maintain my guiding license eligibility on the Red.

Although there is no barge or commercial or shipping traffic on the Red river of the North on the US side, it is still managed as such, hence the requirements. Even though I guide most my trips from a boat well under 18', it is still required. Guides are considered commercial traffic, so they must have the certification and training to operate on all USCG controlled waterways.

If I ever start pushing a 200 ton barge up the Red for cats..I'm covered too.

[Coach1310]

If the law states one needs the license, then the Griz should not be allowed without one. Does not matter if he is the best anywhere or has 100 years of expierence.

He needs to play by the same rules as all the other guides.

Thats only fair.

I agree 100% with you Harvey. He shouldn't be guiding without the proper license. My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday. Just my opinion.....

[jigginjim]

Quote:

My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday.

I'll agree, I have had guys with come past me going over 80mph on the river under hiway 5 bridge, that's maybe the narrowest part of the river. Also some guys operating big boats(28 ft and larger) have NO clue what they are doing. Just fire it up, and everybody else just get out of the way>

[harvey lee]

That guy will get tagged sooner or later. The guide needs to follow the law just like the unsafe boater.

Just because one is not safe does not mean another should not have to follow the laws.

If you see another being unsafe on the public waters, simply call the law or get his license and report him. If none reports him, yes, he will contiune to be unsafe.

We do have a choice as a boater to get involved.

[hanson]

I agree 100% with you Harvey. He shouldn't be guiding without the proper license. My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday. Just my opinion.....

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand...

If you hire this average Joe to give joyrides on the river, he needs to be certified just like everyone else.

If the Griz wants to go fishing on his own with family, he doesn't need the same certification.

Its about regulating commercial commerce on a navigable body of water. Its not about fishing, its not about guiding, its about those who operate commercially on that body of water. Your right in that it probably has nothing to do with safety, but it has everything to do with those who want to make money operating on these waters.

[cdsaeger]

Yes, I'd like to get more information, and what they feel is required.

Wonder who stirred the pot on this to make it important all of a sudden, and who's going to train the other drivers on the river to be safe?

thanks

[DuckDog]

Originally Posted By: Northlander

I agree with this and here's where I have the problem with this law. You can guide pretty much anywhere in the MN on any lake without a license. I can see a need for it, but it shouldn't be $1,000 to get it either. The classes alone are $750 and you have to take off work as they are 56 hours mandatory. They you still have to pay for the licenses. Basically when you get this license you are pretty equal to a barge capt. What's the point of that? There are so many morans on that river in Pleasure boats that are 30 - 80 feet long that NEED to be licensed. I've seen more close calls from them than a person in an 18' fishing boat. Most fisherman, guide or not, are the responsible boaters out on the water. Not all, there are still knuckleheads.

I don't have a problem with the laws but $1000 to get into the license is a little steep.

Most service related businesses need to have a license - I see this as no different. Construction, food service and others all have to "take a class" before they can operate.

[Shack]

I look at it this way, there are good reasons behind getting Coast Guard certified/licensed to be able to guide the river. It just seems right with all the commercial traffic and other obstacles the river(s) poses down here.

Then you have your regular Jo boater to contend with, but (which IMO being on Pool 2, the MN and the Croix more than any other body of water during open water) are not that bad. I will put money on boaters that run the rivers, verses boaters on a public lake any day. It takes a special kind of person to back into a launch on Pool 2 anyways IMO. I have been running the river for awhile now, and during all conditions of the season, and mostly at night. I can not recall any other pleasure craft, commercial vessel or fishing boat causing anything that dropped my jaw (I do not get over to the Croix much though and mostly after dark if I am). Most that use the river are on their guard and pretty professional (at least appear to be). I take the river seriously. I have even been told by barge captains to loosen up on protocol when communicating via VHF.

Anyone remarking about having the regular Jo's licensed because a Guide for hire has to be, you must not enjoy boating/fishing the river then. Although a good idea and it would cut down the traffic tremendously, but I do think that is taking things a little too far.

I just figure the rules are the rules. I personally would never go as far as to turn in a person who is guiding on Fed. waters, but when I look at the recent rise of Earl's List ad's for guiding on the river (cats also), it makes a guy think (these ad's have no mention of insurance, bonded, references or cert's of any kind. To me if someone has these, they would be mentioned and is not, makes me thinks they do not have them ) For one, those who have obtained the USCG six pack with honors, have done the right thing(s), have to contend/compete with riff-raff that can not get them selves together enough to get it done (or at least pull the trigger, which in book is worth something).

For two, why does some 18 year old kid get to guide the easy way for cats, when if I wanted to guide, the only option would be the right and legal way (I say 18 cause they look all of it and maybe do not know, or maybe do not care). Heck, if you look hard enough, these easy-bake guides even post images of their clients in their boat with their catch in their ad's. A couple I have seen, the captain is standing back by the transom and (I have to assume at least 16' boat even if not for hire) I do not even see a throw-able, let alone one life vest. Only the alumn. bench seats, pop cans, a rod, maybe a net, cooler and then the client pulling the gill hold.

Good for the sheriff, Coast Guard, DNR or who ever for cracking down on this. Too bad the Griz had to be an example (always figured he was legit Still kind of puzzled by this/that), but a perfect example to get the word spread

[Shack]

I was actually reading this thread over again:

but then why only river guides? Why not make ALL guides get a license?

Very simple answer: U.S. jurisdiction over State Jurisdiction

On state juristic-ed waters (Like said, minus sole-state- waters like Mille Lacs and Minnetonka), guides pretty much just have to do what is needed to CYA them selves in an event of being sued and follow state boating regulations. The state of MN regulates the laws and regulations in this case. On sole-state-waters like ML, then the 20' or more rule comes into play.

On a U.S. juristic-ed waters, it is a whole other ball of wax (like said about 20 times so far) with the United States Coast Guard (USCG) regulating the laws and saying what is and is not need of a commercial vessel like the un-inspected passenger vessels (UPV/6 passengers or under (6-pack) commercially operated).

Originally Posted By: Hanson

Your right in that it probably has nothing to do with safety, but it has everything to do with those who want to make money operating on these waters.

So tell me Hanson, where can I go, just drop a set amount and pick-up the six-pack cert's, as quick as I would with a cold one from the LQ It is a business like others have said! It is not just a formality, a hassle, a wink-wink "you look OK, go ahead" thing like when Eddy Murphy got the free newspaper in that SNL skit . "here, just take it. It's ok"

IMO it is all about Safety and learning how to be safe when operating a craft and doing so commercially on US regulated waters. Pretty much a step up like from the minors (state) to the majors (US water).

When you hop in Uncle Fred's boat with your wife or kids up at the cabin, you pretty much are under the full knowledge that Uncle Fred is not Capt. William D. Bowell who piloted the J Paddleford for years. He is a free ride. You are going to get just that, in hopes of making back to the dock (which you will).

You board a boat with your wife or kids with a guide/captain like the Griz, most would be expecting that captain to be piloting that boat with the same credentials as Capt. William D. Bowell or at least the currant captain of the J Paddleford Captain Jim Kosmo (edit note:You get my drift ) . You are paying money now to be as safe-as- you-can, from a reputable source, where the USCG certification is needed. Not to mention its on a fast moving river with current.

Maybe I am wrong, but I see it having to "all" to do with safety (with a little bit of they want to know who you are, home land security stuff). I have not gone threw the schooling/course yet, but this is what I have picked up on from those I know who have and others in the knowing. When going from a privet to a commercial airline pilot, is this just a formality or is safety involved? Figure I would pull Hanson's chain a little

[jigginjim]

After talking with another guide from lake pepin, the coast guide seems more interested in collecting more money from people guiding. This is not going to renew his license, due to the added costs that coast guard are adding to fishing guides. He is another guide that would guide lakes, then put up with the red tape all over again.

I have my tag but only do a few trips a year, license is in the works only need a couple more things and its complete. After reading the reasons to be disqualified, if a few guys I know get the card I'm not doing anyting more. Cause then I know its a JOKE!!!!

The Coast Guard should also be Tagging the guys that sit below the ford dam, inside the no entry area.

[PierBridge]

For the record and this is coming from every person I know who has the 6 pack license. You will be greatly disapointed if you think this License/class will teach you anything about being a better, safer boater on the river. It won't.

Now like stated above the law is the law so you have to have it but after weighing in all the data I'm covinced this requirment and the hoops they put you through is a bit over the top say the least.

I'll take the Griz and others like him over 90 percent of the 6 pack ceritfied captains with my well being on the river anyday and Sunday!

But you guys are right the laws is law so one must comply...

[jigginjim]

Pierbridge, I do agree with you that 90% of the guys that went through the coarse, really are not safer. Time is the main factor, have fished on the river for over 25 yrs. Knowing the the river, is different then knowing how to fish the river.

[bturck]

What would happen if guides were licensed like, lets say truckers? For each additional endorsement ie: school bus, charter bus, haz mat your license once endorsed would increase the license fee. For guides lets say 1-3 people a set fee, launchs a set fee, and sightseeing cruisers another fee. Maybe not being a guide I'm not getting the full picture but it doesn't seem equitable to charge the same license fee for guiding 2 people as if you were running a 30 passenger launch or sightseeing boat. I don't disagree with the licensing but it sure would make sense to charge what is approriate for the guides intent. Just my nickels worth.

[fiskyknut]

Bill, an oupv of any type only lets you carry up to 6. These type licenses are for guides and charter captains.

No 30 passenger vessels or 200 ton barges!! Whole different animals as I eluded to in my earlier post here, 7/27 pg 3.. All kinds of different MMD's for a wide variety of commercial operators.

Iffin you have an oupv of any type you can't just jump in a 30 passenger ferry or a 200 ton barge and pilot the thing!

[bturck]

Hey Fisky, good to hear your voice. As I mentioned I'm not a guide (Ask anyone at Riverbend, other than Charterboss LOL). Are the license fee's the same or is it more expensive to be licensed for a barge or large boat as opposed to a smaller guide service?

Must be raining up your way today too, or you'd be on the pond pulling some plugs.

[fiskyknut]

More for initial license..More money as well as much more at sea time/expierience serving aboard a relative type and tonnage rated vessel is required.

No rain yet. Did the trolling thing yesterday, and last week in the heat!

[Jiggin4eyes62]

For the record and this is coming from every person I know who has the 6 pack license. You will be greatly disapointed if you think this License/class will teach you anything about being a better, safer boater on the river. It won't.

Now like stated above the law is the law so you have to have it but after weighing in all the data I'm covinced this requirment and the hoops they put you through is a bit over the top say the least.

I'll take the Griz and others like him over 90 percent of the 6 pack ceritfied captains with my well being on the river anyday and Sunday!

But you guys are right the laws is law so one must comply...

I've read the entire thread and you are spot on. In my opinion, the only difference you get in a guide that has this license and one who does not, is they paid some cash out of pocket to get it. It will not make you safer on the water, catch more fish or anything like that. Just the government taking more money. I always thought the Griz did follow the law. Wonder if he has guide insurance?

[half-dutch]

I wondered about the insurance angle, too. Normally business insurance requires proper licenses or the policy is subject to being revoked and claims denied.

The gist I take from most postings on this thread is that a lot of recreational boaters are more dangerous than nearly any commercial operator, properly licensed or not.

Personally I would like to see some sort of license testing and requirement for all boat operators of watercraft big enough to require state licensing (over 9 ft in MN IIRC) on public waters, just like it takes a vanilla license to operate any motor vehicle on state roads. You have to license the boat anyway and the trailer, too. I don't see any need for a complicated or expensive basic license, but for increasing vessel size there should be increased requirements. Graduate the level according to the size of boat to be operated, and then tag commercial license levels on top just like for driving a truck.

So some guy goes down and puts out 10, 20, 30 grand or more for a boat, it seems to me the public has a right to know that he or she can properly operate such massive equipment in public. The extra expense of the licensing process and the time invested would really be small potatoes by comparison. Things like lighting, safety equipment, rights of way, standard rules of the road, small craft warnings, when and how to render assistance, what may or may not be put into the waters are too often completely ignored these days, and very often the people who end up getting hurt or killed are not the ones responsible in the first place.

My personal wish would not to allow licenses or licensing of jet skis, but that is just me... or maybe not. I would also require a special permit to tow water skiers, having come within inches of having been run down by one. With the tow out, that kind of operation is certainly more complex and potentially dangerous to both participants and uninvolved parties.

For pete's sakes you have to get certified before you can scuba dive, and the public safety is a whole lot more at risk from recreational boats.

Actually it looks to me like Griz was given a warning instead of being run in, which he could have been since the regs have been in place for quite some time and he appears to have been in technical violation for a while. It seems to me they could have been a whole lot harder on him than they were.

[Coach1310]

Originally Posted By: Coach1310

I agree 100% with you Harvey. He shouldn't be guiding without the proper license. My issue is that any average Joe can take his speedboat out and go flying up and down the river and put everyone in danger, but we seem to add a license or certificate or whatever to the businesses. It sure seems like they are always looking for ways to add $$$ to the bottom line and I guess I don't see this making the waterways a LOT safer. You can have licenses and certificates all you want. I'll take the guy with the most common sense anyday. Just my opinion.....

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand...

If you hire this average Joe to give joyrides on the river, he needs to be certified just like everyone else.

If the Griz wants to go fishing on his own with family, he doesn't need the same certification.

Its about regulating commercial commerce on a navigable body of water. Its not about fishing, its not about guiding, its about those who operate commercially on that body of water. Your right in that it probably has nothing to do with safety, but it has everything to do with those who want to make money operating on these waters.

Okay.... I never said it was hard to understand.....I understand that it is a way to regulate commercial traffic. However, if SAFETY is part of the concern, why waste your time with a small part of the traffic that has plenty of experience on the water instead of with the majority of the traffic who may have no experience. I understand they are making a living on a public waterway and there should be some kind of regulation, it just seems to be more about genrating revenue then regulating traffic. If SAFETY isn't not part of the equation, why isn't it just a fee you pay? I just think the entire things smells of generating revenue and nothing else. I am all for some kind of regulation, just call it a user fee/permit and not a licensing/safety thing.

[cdsaeger]

I think your right on half-dutch. There should be some license requirements for all operators like a driver's license with additional requirements depending on size & use of that watercraft. People that have been fishing the river since childhood are probably safer than the guy in the 30 ft. cruiser entertaining people for the weekend. There should be levels for the commercial license too depending on the number of people and size of boat you will be running. Lastly, for those putting the time and money into the license they should teach you something about being safer on the water. Not to spoil anyones fun, but the safety rules need to be more uniform and communicated to all that are trying to enjoy these beautiful waters.

[croixflats]

Opening a can of worms IMO. Whats next a licence for ATV then whats after that ? Licensing the weekenders wont stop the stupidity or the lack of common sense on the water or courtesy. If licensing was the answer driving a car should be safe free of dummies on the road but you still see people texting or people talking on the phone or other dumb things.

[Big Buck Buster]

Opening a can of worms IMO. Whats next a licence for ATV then whats after that ? Licensing the weekenders wont stop the stupidity or the lack of common sense on the water or courtesy. If licensing was the answer driving a car should be safe free of dummies on the road but you still see people texting or people talking on the phone or other dumb things.

Exactly!!!

[Scott M]

River guides are forced back to school

by Dennis Anderson, Star Tribune

If you're looking for a fishing or hunting guide on the St. Croix, Mississippi or Minnesota rivers, look again. And again. Chances are you won't find one. Most, it turns out, have been sidelined -- temporarily, if not permanently -- by the U.S. Coast Guard and its decision to enforce federal licensing requirements on those waters.

The Coast Guard's efforts in recent weeks have sidelined some of the state's biggest names in guiding, including Richard (Griz) Grzywinski of St. Paul. Griz is among the best and most experienced multi-species guides in the state. In recent years, due to his advancing age and the resurgence of walleye populations in metro regions of the Mississippi and St. Croix, he has concentrated more on these waters and less on lakes up north.

Griz is one of as many as 30 guides who have been contacted as far south as Iowa by Twin Cities-based Coast Guard representatives. Virtually none have the "Six Pack'' license the Coast Guard requires of anyone carrying passengers for pay on these waters.

Griz, who supports himself guiding, has lost more than a month's work since the Coast Guard contacted him. "I guess I have to take the course to get the license,'' he said. "I make my living off those rivers. I haven't gone to school in a long time and hardly read anymore. But I'm going to have to take the course if I want to work.''

To attain a license, guides must attend a course given by independent contractors -- community colleges, in some instances -- lasting about 60 hours. Additionally, prospective licensed guides must know CPR and must agree to submit to random drug tests. A special work permit intended, basically, to screen terroristic fishing and hunting guides also must be obtained.

Total cost: about $1,000.

"They say if you don't have a license and you get caught guiding, the penalty is $10,000 a day,'' Griz said.

Coast Guard Chief Warrant Officer John Nay said Thursday the effort -- some call it a crackdown -- became a priority this summer for the six Coast Guard officers stationed at Fort Snelling. Nay's office reports to one in St. Louis, and apparently the guide-compliance directive came from there.

"The waters we're concerned with in Minnesota are the Minnesota, the Mississippi to its headwaters, and the St. Croix River to Taylors Falls,'' Nay said.

Nay said he and others in his office, along with members of the local Coast Guard Auxiliary, have used the Internet and other means this summer to locate guides working on these rivers. They've also visited bait shops and marinas in an attempt to find guides.

"Because ours is a small office, we haven't enforced this requirement in the past,'' Nay said. "Basically, since 9/11 we've been involved with more security issues. Now we've been trying to educate guides about the requirement and notify them that if they don't comply and they are caught on the water or we learn of their operations, an enforcement action can be taken.''

Griz said the Coast Guard representative who called his house was abrupt, if not rude, when informing him that he needed to be licensed. Another guide who asked not to be named said he received a call instructing him to "Get off the river immediately.''

Nay said that to his knowledge, no Coast Guard auxiliary member has contacted guides personally. Most auxiliary members are retirees, or nearly so, who own their own boats and want to participate in Coast Guard work as volunteers.

In June the Coast Guard began training auxiliary members, who then joined with active duty officers in identifying guides to contact.

When a guide was contacted, he or she was asked if they wanted to "submit to an inspection,'' Nay said.

Most said no once they realized they could pass the inspection only if they held a Six Pack license.

Taking a course isn't a prerequisite to submitting to the Coast Guard exam, Nay said. But the test would be difficult to pass without formal preparation. A CPR course also is recommended in advance of the test, say some who have taken it and become licensed.

"Grandfathering in'' experienced guides isn't possible, Nay said.

Also, licensed guides are welcome to -- if not encouraged to -- snitch on unlicensed guides to the Coast Guard, Nay conceded. Some guides who have lost business and income in recent weeks since the Coast Guard's effort began say that's what has occurred in this case.

Whether that's true is beside the point, Nay suggested.

"If someone hires a guide to go on one of these rivers, there is a level of professionalism that is expected on behalf of the client,'' he said. "The client is expecting the guide to have a level of expertise.'' For that to happen, licensing of guides is necessary, Nay said.

Maybe. But making a living also is necessary, and many of the guides involved -- Griz is one -- have been working for decades with little to show for it in terms of money. But their clienteles are happy. And I can't remember an incident involving a fishing guide anywhere in Minnesota in which a client was hurt.

The Coast Guard could have implemented its new program and enforcement effort more gradually, it seems, allowing guides to finish out their summers in advance of taking the first Six Pack course, which isn't available until later this fall.

As Griz said, "They sure threw a wrench into my summer, I'll tell you that.''

[Jiggin4eyes62]

That is one of the most rediculous things I have heard. Guides turning in other guides. If the Griz has been on the water as long as he has, I would put my life in his hands any day.

[jigginjim]

JIggin4eyes, Believe it, I know a few guides that whine about guys(guides) not having the C.G. paper. Some guys still guide on the St. croix flying under the radar. I got the new TWIC card required for river guides. I guide on many lakes that don't have the requirement. But I'm sure that will change soon also.

[PierBridge]

Sounds like the Griz ddn't pass the 6-Pak test this time around.