Minnesota Laws on Carrying Handguns in the woods??

[BobT]

Ah. I see what you're saying. Now look at the opening statement of 624.714. In particular notice the part I have in bold print.

*******************************

Subd. 1a.Permit required; penalty.

A person, other than a peace officer, as defined in section 626.84, subdivision 1, who carries, holds, or possesses a pistol in a motor vehicle, snowmobile, or boat, or on or about the person's clothes or the person, or otherwise in possession or control in a public place, as defined in section 624.7181, subdivision 1, paragraph ©, without first having obtained a permit to carry the pistol is guilty of a gross misdemeanor. A person who is convicted a second or subsequent time is guilty of a felony.

And then look at 624.7181, subdivision 1, paragraph © and again notice what I've highlighted in bold print.

© "Public place" means property owned, leased, or controlled by a governmental unit and private property that is regularly and frequently open to or made available for use by the public in sufficient numbers to give clear notice of the property's current dedication to public use but does not include: a person's dwelling house or premises, the place of business owned or managed by the person, or land possessed by the person; a gun show, gun shop, or hunting or target shooting facility; or the woods, fields, or waters of this state where the person is present lawfully for the purpose of hunting or target shooting or other lawful activity involving firearms.

*************************************

Therefore, if I am carrying a handgun in the woods or afield where I am not by definition in a public place and am participating in a lawful activity involving a firearm such as carrying one, would I not be within the law?

I can see where this could really get wild.

[Tom7227]

I'm done.

[Here-Kitty-Kitty]

Ya I'm not sure if this one could be settled over the computer

[Muthagoose]

Quote:

or other lawful activity involving firearms.

Enough said...........

[HondaRider07]

Like stated before, I talked to my buddy(present day police officer) and he has talked to multiple sheriff's deputys. I also talked to a DNR officer this weekend and specifically asked him about carrying a handgun in the woods WITHOUT a CCW permit not during hunting season(such as scouting, hiking or camping) and he said it was legal, and that I would have no problems. I just can't transport it loaded on any type of motor vehicle(i.e....car/truck/atv/snowmobile/boat). I plan on asking my uncle(who is a forest ranger in the BWCA) this next weekend about the laws of carrying within the BWCA.....

[Here-Kitty-Kitty]

Yep thats what my buddys have said. The only differences in what your buddies are saying and mine are is that it has to be where you can legally hunt on. If you were to be stopped with a pistol you are coyote hunting being that they are open year around and there is no caliber rags on them.

[BobT]

Exactly what I've been saying with one small difference. I've been saying it is legal even if you have it under your coat because the law doesn't discriminate between concealed or unconcealed and this is what I was trying to understand.

It seems that the only way to settle it is to have a citation issued to someone that happened to have it concealed while they were afield and then they would challenge the citation in court and get a court ruling one way or the other.

[Archerysniper]

You first bob I have my permit so it dosen't matter

[KG243]

Just get a permit and make life easy!

[Here-Kitty-Kitty]

lol ya I am going to have to pass on the whole citation deal.

[Phooj]

I called the DNR and talked with them, they say you cant bring a hand gun into the woods unless you are bowhunting for Bear. that is the only exceptions.

[Here-Kitty-Kitty]

Well that doesn't work because it clearly states that for yote hunting you can use any caliber weapon including pistol calibers.

[para1911]

I also have a permit to carry and to my understanding the only time I CAN NOT have a handgun in the woods is when I'm bowhunting for deer (MN big game regs). I'm pretty sure thats the rule for non permit holders as well. Just don't conceal it and there shouldn't be a issue. I also talked to a CO on a portage heading into the BWCA. I was open carying and so was my friend. He asked me if I case my sidearm while I'm in the boat (MN still thinks it's necessary to case a handgun in a motor vehicle unless you have a carry permit). I handed him my carry permit with my fishing lic and he let us be on our way no questions asked.

Is the BWCA classified as national park? As of now you can't carry a handgun in a national park unless it's unloaded and cased. They placed this law back into effect just after they lifted it. I guess they're trying to get this law dropped again.

-Andy

[para1911]

Oh, and you have to be 18 or under the supervision of an adult. I was just told the BWCA is a widerness aera, not a park. I trust thier info until being told otherwise I guess. I was under the impression that it is unlawful to conceal a handgun at all unless you have the permit to do so. I may be wrong on this one... anybody know the answer?

[Tom7227]

Once again, wether the gun is concealed or not makes no difference in Minnesota law. You can be bare a$$ naked and if you have a loaded pistol you can be in trouble if you are in a public place and don't have a permit to carry.

As for answers from the DNR, no offense to them but their main focus is hunting laws. After writing a book on gun laws and teaching hundreds of police officers I can say without qualification that Minn. Stat. §624.714 Subd 9 prohibits carrying a pistol without a permit in the woods or fields or upone open waters unless they are hunting or target shooting - Here it is:

Subd. 9.Carrying pistols about one's premises or for purposes of repair, target practice. A permit to carry is not required of a person:

(4) to carry a pistol in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this state for the purpose of hunting or of target shooting in a safe area; or

[para1911]

If I go into the woods (not a public place) with the intention of target practicing and never take a single shot am I guilty of subd 9? This is why we seldom never hear of this being enforced, it has too many loopholes. I encourage everyone who ever may want to carry a handgun to get a carry permit. Then you can carry as many handguns you want in the woods or in public. Just put it away before the beers come out for the evening! The more permits that are issued the harder it will be to ever eliminate these permits!

[Dave S]

Tom7227,

not that I'm doubting what you're saying, but I guess after reading through subd. 9., nowhere (that I see) does it appear to say that a permit "IS" required to carry in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this state.

I don't mean to carry this on more than it already has been, but I don't think we should read more into this than what it states.

[Here-Kitty-Kitty]

for the purpose of hunting or of target shooting in a safe area; or

[BobT]

Originally Posted By: Tom7227

for the purpose of hunting or of target shooting in a safe area; or

[Here-Kitty-Kitty]

You and I have the same thoughts Bob. You just need to say that your yote hunting and then if there is a law against it then you are safe.

[Tom7227]

Ok, this circle is getting really old, but one last attempt. Minn. Stat §624.7181 deals with carrying rifles and shotguns. Minn. Stat. 624.714 deals with pistols.

An arguement could be fashioned that the definition of public place from 7181 should be carried to 713, and in fact I included that in one of my original posts. I still think it is illegal to carry a pistol in the woods unless 714 (9) applies.

As for Kitty's continued reference to my earlier erroneous posts - I did write a correction later on and apologized for my error.

I agree that obtaining a conviction for violating this law may be difficult, and also that the likelihood of someone getting arrested for it may be rare. That doesn't mean that it can't happen. And for those who say you could avoid it by claiming you were target shooting, go ahead and try, but by that time you're a defendant.

My goal in answering on this thread is to create an awareness of the possiblity of a violation. Given the right facts I think a conviction is possilbe.

Do what you chose with the information that's available.

[picksbigwagon]

okay, just looking for a yes or no. If I go grouse hunting or pheasant hunting and carry along my 1911, does it need to be visible or if my hunting coat covers it, am I okay? No I do not have my permit to carry, but I might someday soon

[Tom7227]

No. "Concealed" is not in the pistol permit law.

[BobT]

I'm having difficulty understanding why you feel 624.7181 doesn't apply to handguns when 624.714 specifically refers to it for the definition of public place.

Quote:

I still think it is illegal to carry a pistol in the woods unless 713 (9) applies.

I'm confused by what you've said here. Did you fat finger something or am I reading it correctly?

You're statement seems to imply that you think if 713(9) applied to me, I would be legal to carry????? 614.713 lists specific situations that would make it illegal to even possess firearms of any kind and 713(9) is referring to someone that has been convicted of domestic assault with or without a firearm.

[BobT]

No. "Concealed" is not in the pistol permit law.

On this I definitely agree with you, Tom. Now if I could only get you to come around to my way of thinking on the rest of it.

[Tom7227]

Bob,

Typo - 714(9) is the proper reference.

I think we just have to agree to disagree. I'm retired now so you don't have to worry about me prosecuting you.

[BobT]

Whew! Good thing, eh?

Yes. I can and have agreed to disagree. Like I stated earlier. I think the only way I could be really convinced is to have a third party (judge) make a ruling.

Have you ever tried a case where someone was charged with possession without a permit as I've described and if so, are you able to share the result?

[Tom7227]

I was involved in prosecuting well over 400 - 700 gun crimes. I worked for a city and so the 'field' question never came up. No hunting allowed in Ramsey County. If it had I would have taken a run at it.

BTW I am not anti-gun in any way. Just anti-bad guy with guns, and I had chances to meet a lot of them.

[picksbigwagon]

So I can carry the 1911 under my coat on my belt? That is great, saves me from buying one of those leg holsters too.....would have made my walk to the deer stand a little easier this last fall too.....I looked pretty goofy with my 357 belted outside of my big blaze orange coat. Now I know, thanks for answering that question.

[BobT]

I decided to take my questions to the local county sheriff and he in turn took it to our local CO. I thought I'd share the conversation.

First, this is how I worded my question.

Quote:

I have been engaged in a discussion about minnesota handgun laws and I'm hoping that you could offer your opinion.

Our focus has been MN Statute 624.714.

I have been arguing that in Minnesota a permit is not required to

possess or carry on my person a handgun while afield or in the woods even if I am not actively hunting or target shooting at the time. Naturally, we are talking about areas where firearms are allowed.

For example, I like to use my .44 magnum revolver for deer hunting in northern MN. Suppose I take a drive up there in early June for some pre-season scouting. Knowing that springtime introduces a higher risk of potentially coming across a timber wolf den with pups or a she bear with cubs (both are very present in the area) I might like to carry my .44 magnum along for protection just in case. Since I do not have a MN

permit to carry, would I be in violation of our MN handgun laws?

I have argued my position based on two things.

1.

624.714 refers to carrying handguns in "public places" and then refers to 624.7181, subd. 1 for the definition of public place. 624.7181 states that public place does not include "the woods, fields, or waters of this state where the person is present lawfully for the purpose of hunting or target shooting or other lawful activity involving firearms."

My argument here is that carrying a firearm and in my case a pistol is a lawful activity involving firearms.

2.

624.714, Subd. 9(4) states that a permit is not required "to carry a pistol in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this state for the purpose of hunting or of target shooting in a safe area;"

I would appreciate your proffessional opinion.

Here is the response I received from our county sheriff. I was pleasantly surprised that he responded the next day.

Quote:

Bob

You bring up an interesting question. While MN Statute 624.714 and other areas address the issue of "land for the purpose of hunting or target shooting," 624.7181 brings up the addition of "other lawful criteria." This is bordering on "legal speak" and I can see this as a local enforcement issue. For instance, if our local deputies cited you for this violation, our local county attorney may or may not wish to pursue charges, based upon his understanding of these statutes. The same would hold true for a county up north - their county attorney, using the same criteria, may choose to pursue charges or dismiss the violation based upon his interpretation of the same statute.

I did talk to a local Game Warden who felt that your purpose of being in the woods fell under the "other lawful criteria." He advised that he felt that this would be the opinion statewide but you may want to talk to the local warden in the area where you are going.

As you can see, the local sheriff didn't have a concrete opinion one way or another and the local CO felt I would be okay however he also said so with reservation and therefore he too did not have a concrete opinion. This suggests that one could be cited and then have to put up a defense.

Based on this information and the strong opinion from Tom7272, whose opinion I've come to respect, I would have to agree with others that the best option would be to obtain a permit to carry before trecking afield with a pistol unless you're obviously hunting or target shooting legally. It doesn't appear to be a cut and dried matter and I'm sure it costs much less to obtain the permit than to obtain an acquittal. In the end, the training is probably good for us anyway.

Thanks for an enjoyable and rewarding debate. It was fun.