Antler Point Restrictions

[james_walleye]

Lets say i wouldnt be against it where i hunt in SE MN. I believe the deer population is strong enough where it shouldnt be a big deal to let a year old 6 pointer walk by and shoot a doe for the freezer. What i discovered where my new permission is though is that there is a whole load of people doing this anyway, and amazingly to me alot of these people actually are passing up 125" deer. Getting rid of the old bucks only season really helped zone 3 IMO. People now have the option to shoot a doe for the freezer rather than eventually having to just shoot a buck to put meat in the freezer.

I don't have a problem with more rules and regs. IMO hunters should take a little repsonsibility and read a rules and regs book before stepping foot afield rather than pleading to the DNR to make things easier. If a reg is put in place by the DNR that will help the deer herd than i feel they should do so.

As much as some people didnt like the all season license, i believe one thing it did in many areas was let more young bucks survive to 2 years old. I know alot of people used to shoot the first buck they saw but bought this license and took a doe and waited it out for a mature buck. Common sense says this should have allowed for more young bucks to get by to maturity.

[Bear55]

Dude, I do see his point and I fully agree that you can't judge 1 1/2 year old genetics on antlers alone. But, when two bucks born at the same time and live through the same growing seasons and winter seasons end up with different sized racks for their first year, you don't think genetics has anything to do with that?

Are you sure we don't have some bad genetics in MN? Have you never seen an older buck in MN without brow tines? I would call that a inferior genetic characteristic.

I just feel that genetics is the least of our worries, right now what percentage of our bucks reach 4.5+ year old, maybe 1-2%? I'm not sure but I know across most of the state its not very many.

[B. Amish]

You're probably right. I just don't want to go down a road that may someday have a negative impact on such a great animal.

Whant MN has for potential is just flat out amazing. But, I've seen some great strides in how people treat the young bucks in my area in just the last 5 years. I think there's hope that we don't need AR's to get the common goal that a lot of us are seeking.

[tazmn01]

It would be nice to see some sort of restriction on bucks in some areas. In the west metro where we hunt mainly it is usually the brown it is down attitude. Numbers over anything else. It has been tough to take my ten year old out and pass on spike and fork horns only to have someone else show us the same deer while complaining about no BIG deer around. I guess we look at taking young deer like keeping 4 inch sunnies if you need numbers to be Outdoors person go ahead there is nothing we can do about it. If you need meat there is plenty of does. I remember when shooting a fork horn or spike was a mistake and the amount of ribbing you got kept you from taking one. Times change.

[Black_Bay]

Right now my biggest concern is a WSI in International Falls of 146. The next time it's measured on March 15 it will probably be 156. I'm betting it will top 180 or at least be close. If this winter holds on I bet we're looking at least at antlerless permits if not bucks only instead of a managed area.

[Rippinlip]

How about this,

Archery hunting from September to December (like now), 1 tag either sex.

Gun hunting, state wide, November 21st only, 1 tag only, 150" buck or doe fawn only.

Muzzle loader, state wide, December 19th only, 1 tag only, 145" buck or doe fawn only.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not want everyone to bow hunt.....

[james_walleye]

I guess the problem is if you see a forkhorn and an 8-pointer together how do you know they have gone through the same growing season and got through the previous winters the same. These are 2 huge factors. A buck born a couple weeks earlier than the next has a huge advantage and can single handedly be the difference between being a forkhorn and being bigger. And just because 2 bucks survived the same winter in the same county doesnt mean they came through the winter the same. The genetically superior buck may have not had the same nutrition as the next buck. Again, this could be the difference in a fork and being a 6 or 8 pointer. There is a reason the number one rule for those that practice QDM is to let young bucks walk. Its because there are to many factors in why a young buck has the rack he has and nothing can be taken away from that first rack as far as potential.

There is a large difference between MN having the random 3 year old 6 pointer with missing brows and MS having half their bucks with genetics that won't let them get passed 4 or 6 points. I mean really, how often do you see a MN mature buck with missing brows. That random MN 6 pointer being allowed to breed is much different than protecting half a deer herd from being harvested, when that half is genetically inferior. Its not rocket science, of course thats going to be a mess.

[RuttenBuck]

Whant MN has for potential is just flat out amazing. But, I've seen some great strides in how people treat the young bucks in my area in just the last 5 years. I think there's hope that we don't need AR's to get the common goal that a lot of us are seeking.

I will agree with you that AR isn't the ideal situation and would rather see other changes first. It is too bad that hunters do not do a better job managing the resources themselves. I'm not talking about the hunters who hunt all week and see 1 or 2 deer. I'm talking about the hunters who could have shot 10 antlerless deer before shooting that first yearling buck that shows up and there is a lot of hunters in this crowd out there. Every year though, it seems I find more and more people making the jump to QDM so hopefully this continues.

[PEATMOSS]

I don't own an assault rifle and have no plans to do so, but I oppose most new restrictive gun laws because it is obvious to me that the other side has no intention of stopping their assault on my right to make my own decisions.

Likewise it is with the QDM crowd. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, a certain faction within the hunting community would continue to chip away at the heritage I love so dearly and turn it into a game of antler quest.

[Getanet]

I'm with you PeatMoss.

[Musky Buck]

It's always been a game somewhat of antler quest. How many mounted doe heads or fawns do you see in MN ? James Walleye you are right on, we have forks this year that will be ten pointers and 6's this year that will be 8's. To the people seeing more and larger bucks someone or some groups in your area are probably letting the squirts walk and the larger bucks are spreading out to have their own home range, I'd thank QDM go/grow guys and gals.

[RuttenBuck]

I don't own an assault rifle and have no plans to do so, but I oppose most new restrictive gun laws because it is obvious to me that the other side has no intention of stopping their assault on my right to make my own decisions.

Likewise it is with the QDM crowd. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, a certain faction within the hunting community would continue to chip away at the heritage I love so dearly and turn it into a game of antler quest.

That is a terrible analogy. First of all, anti-gun people HATE guns and want to eliminate them. QDM hunters LOVE deer and want them to thrive. We are not out to make hunting into a high-fenced big antlered trohy hunter operation, which we get made out to be. We love to hunt fair chase deer just as much as you. We just want a better age structure and balanced herd. HELP US GET THAT AND EVERYONE WILL WIN! I can guarantee you that true QDM hunters will be happy with that and obviously like to keep it that way. If they are not, then they are trophy hunters which is different than a QDM hunter. How many trophy hunters shoot does? Not very many. How many QDM hunters shoot does? Lots of them.

[CanOCorn]

This is getting crazy. It isn't a Boone and Crockett restriction... it is a leave the spike, forks, small bucks grow. It doesn't have to be a mounter, just a mature deer.

Guess what, like I said earlier, do this program for a couple years and there is nothing to worry about. Those little bucks you are shooting now turn out to be mature bucks and lucky us we get to hunt the rut.. you know... the time of year the mature bucks are chasing and seeking and all over the map.

And whoever that was saying shooting the "fawns" for EAB is the wrong thing to do... 3 things.

1. I have never shot an animal with spots.... ever.

2. Guess what happens to that 7 month old animal when you take out it's mom just before the harsh winter.

3. The mature doe breeds again the next year so you are not decimating your herd. If you herd requires managing the mature does then by all means fire away. Just don't question my ethics though.

[Getanet]

I think it's a very good analogy. Note he says a certain fraction. Let's keep to the topic in this thread and say an antler point restriction is imposed. If after a few years we're still not seeing the results that were hoped for, do you think we'll just call it a failed experiment? Maybe. Or maybe AR isn't enough, so now we need to impose party hunting restrictions on top of that. And then go to Earn A Buck or change the season if we're still not seeing results.

As far as I'm concerned there are too many tactics to QDM to see it stop at one regulation change. Many in this very thread have said something to the effect of "AR might not get the results we're looking for, but it's a START."

[BobT]

Originally Posted By: PEATMOSS

I don't own an assault rifle and have no plans to do so, but I oppose most new restrictive gun laws because it is obvious to me that the other side has no intention of stopping their assault on my right to make my own decisions.

Likewise it is with the QDM crowd. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, a certain faction within the hunting community would continue to chip away at the heritage I love so dearly and turn it into a game of antler quest.

That is a terrible analogy. First of all, anti-gun people HATE guns and want to eliminate them. QDM hunters LOVE deer and want them to thrive. We are not out to make hunting into a high-fenced big antlered trohy hunter operation, which we get made out to be. We love to hunt fair chase deer just as much as you. We just want a better age structure and balanced herd. HELP US GET THAT AND EVERYONE WILL WIN! I can guarantee you that true QDM hunters will be happy with that and obviously like to keep it that way. If they are not, then they are trophy hunters which is different than a QDM hunter. How many trophy hunters shoot does? Not very many. How many QDM hunters shoot does? Lots of them.

Is it really such a terrible analogy?

How many anti-gun/anti-hunting/anti-fishing spokespeople do you know that will claim they don't want to take away our rights while they push to pass laws that infringe on our rights?

I don't think it is as far fetched an analogy as you think.

Bob

[candiru]

I have made this analogy before on here. A lot of posts that say we just got to get started or get our foot in the door. Example: it used to be we got to push the gun season to late Nov./ early Dec now it is just move the season back a week.

Now it is just we got to get some of these bucks past 1.5 years If that happens I guarentee these same people will see some 2.5 year old 10 pointers shot and it will become: what a shame we can't let these nice 2.5 year olds with all this potential get killed. What that deer could have become if it had lived another 2 years or even one.

[96trigger]

I think it is sad that there is no trust. I guess that it is our society. I would be in favor of some things, but not others. The only bucks I'd like to give a free pass to are the 1.5 year olds. I don't see that thinking changing in the future. Its too bad that there is so much paranoia and that people can't be taken for their word. That is what this has all come down to. Don't give an inch, they will take a mile. It's no wonder we can't accomplish anything with all that fear going around. I have much more respect for those that don't want to change because they want to be able to shoot whatever they want, than those that resist change because they feel that the change will be continuous.

[Musky Buck]

I think the hope is candiru if a larger number can get to 2 1/2 they have a fighting chance to get older,they will be a year and a hunting season smarter, right now what is the % of bucks shot being 1 1/2 year old baby bucks ? My issue isn't with young or elderly hunters, wail away if you wish. How do we stop this cross tagging, saving "my" buck tag, letting the wife or girlfriend tag the first round of bucks for the year, the got to have my buck tag for late bow or muzzleloading because what if Mr.Big walks by then. That's the part of the all-season tag I didn't like. I knew a guy that did hammer a trophy buck, girlfriend tagged it and went back to bed, saved his buck tag and scored on another giant during musket season. Other hunters blast many small ones if the tags are available, you know fill Jimmy's tag, he can only hunt first weekend so we'll use his first. That is the some of the reason I'd like to see AR in some areas with tagging your own buck. Since we hunt the rut and the yearlings are out cruising like dummies at least some would get some protection and hunters could take it a step further then and put all yearling bucks off limits. But, this is 1 factor out of many.

[Musky Buck]

There might be an easier route to go that could do the same, I like the 4 day season and a 9 for AR hunters, it would let the brown down groups pound away for 4 days although my theory is bad because I'm sure the first 4 days is likely the time when most rookie bucks get a hole in them. Bad Theory.

[Musky Buck]

Last AR thought is you know, if I see someone with a small buck, if they are truly happy with it, I'm happy for them and the meat they will get to enjoy from it. It's the people that year after year just pile up these little guys for really unknown reasons other then to shoot or fill out tags, that is where the problem is. Currently, this is a legal way to hunt so have at it if you wish. I'm not sure with how pressured our deer are, especially yearling bucks, living in a state of 6 million people, that this is a good way to go forward with our current age structure in our overall deer herd.

[james_walleye]

Its just like walleye fishing, heaven forbid there are laws in place where someone has to throw a walleye back. It basically boils down to people don't want to be told what to do. It doesnt matter if letting young bucks walk to get them to maturity and help out the age structure of our bucks might actually benefit the deer herd, they just don't want to be told what to do. Its not people against AR,or EAB, or this or that, its people against being told what to do.

[B K'S DAD]

Very good point

[AugieAngler1010]

Its just like walleye fishing, heaven forbid there are laws in place where someone has to throw a walleye back. It basically boils down to people don't want to be told what to do. It doesnt matter if letting young bucks walk to get them to maturity and help out the age structure of our bucks might actually benefit the deer herd, they just don't want to be told what to do. Its not people against AR,or EAB, or this or that, its people against being told what to do.

We live in a free country filled with many folks that value the ability to make decisions for themselves. The concept of liberty is more central to this country than the number of points on the deer you shoot each fall.

I don't condone unethical behavior - this world isn't perfect and there will always be bozo's no matter what laws you enact. Instead of likening deer hunting to walleye fishing - why not compare it to bass fishing? Most fishermen today rarely keep largemouth bass, if ever. Could we as hunters, through persuasion, work to teach the next generation the concept of selective hunting practices rather than force our values on every hunter through the force of law?

[PEATMOSS]

It is absolutely nothing like walleye fishing. Walleye slots were created to protect the prime breeding females thus increasing the overall population. Many of us that catch alot of walleyes were practicing this well before it became law.

[Big Dave2]

It is absolutely nothing like walleye fishing. Walleye slots were created to protect the prime breeding females thus increasing the overall population. Many of us that catch alot of walleyes were practicing this well before it became law.

Absolutely correct!

James_Walleye

If you want to compare walleye slots to deer hunting, it would essentially be the equivalent of protecting does(breeding females) and harvesting bucks. QDM guys are advocating quite the opposite.

[Musky Buck]

Peat he's just trying to say there was a time when any walleye was legal and you were in the minority releasing them. So if we can change our walleye slaughtering attitude maybe we have a shot with 1 1/2 year old bucks but I guess not. Read Page 10 of the February 27th, 2009 outdoor news if you want a good AR read.

[Musky Buck]

All I know for sure is our age structure in the buck world is not very good in my area when 85% are yearlings, yes % wise that's 85 out of 100. Maybe it's higher than that. The DNR said my buck was the largest they had seen so far as of Monday, I said that is pitiful because I thought I had a decent one, but hearing that what a disgrace we are hammering immature bucks, heck I'd like to tranquilize them, cut there horns down to 2"s. Give them a chance, most of you don't need the meat.

[PEATMOSS]

But you NEED the antlers?

[Big Dave2]

All I know for sure is our age structure in the buck world is not very good in my area when 85% are yearlings, yes % wise that's 85 out of 100. Maybe it's higher than that. The DNR said my buck was the largest they had seen so far as of Monday, I said that is pitiful because I thought I had a decent one, but hearing that what a disgrace we are hammering immature bucks, heck I'd like to tranquilize them, cut there horns down to 2"s. Give them a chance, most of you don't need the meat.

[vister]

I think what musky is trying to say, is that in order to have healthier, larger, more mature game, people first have to learn to be selective. let those little fish swim another day, and little bucks a chance at next year. QDM should be called QGM, or quality game management. I'll be the first to admit i'm a trophy hunter.

When my passion is hunting, and i do a lot of it, yeah I am looking for a large, mature buck. regardless of whether or not I bag him, I still will take a doe the first good chance I get.

For most of us to say that we don't want to shoot a big buck, or catch a 30" walleye because we want them samller, would be a lie. And when hunting and fishing are your 2 favorite things in the world, you learn to be selective knowing that in time, everything will get bigger, if given the chance to swim, or walk another day.