Antler Point Restrictions

[buckhunter21]

B. Amish you make a good point i do agree that would be a problem. But how many 3.5 and 4.5 year old bucks have you seen in THIS STATE that dont have at least 4 points on one side. I have seen exactly notta! Yea the few deer that do have inferior genetics would maybe get an extra year to breed but i dont think that there are going to be many bucks if any that will be protected until 3.5+. Never been to mississippi and have no idea what there deer herd is like but im just guessing it doesnt have the genetics our state does.

[Getanet]

Can some of the QDM guys on here please say if you hunt private or public land? I can’t help but think that guys with their own land are more apt to push QDM. I’m more willing to listen to someone argue for QDM if I knew they were hunting public land.

As I see it now, most of the QDM guys posting on this site eventually disclose that they are mainly frustrated with not being able to turn their plot of land into a buck utopia. If you're hunting your own land you’ve already got it better than most…

[Black_Bay]

Thanks BA. I look forward to reading the report.

Getanet, I hunt public land but don't consider myself a QDM guy even though I've advocated certain management in the threads. My opinions are more to add my preferences into the fray since some are so vocal on changes they want. Yea I would like to see more big bucks but I don't agree with some of the opinions on how we should do it. That's why I've thrown my 2 cents in.

[B. Amish]

B. Amish you make a good point i do agree that would be a problem. But how many 3.5 and 4.5 year old bucks have you seen in THIS STATE that dont have at least 4 points on one side. I have seen exactly notta! Yea the few deer that do have inferior genetics would maybe get an extra year to breed but i dont think that there are going to be many bucks if any that will be protected until 3.5+. Never been to mississippi and have no idea what there deer herd is like but im just guessing it doesnt have the genetics our state does.

I can probably count on two hands the number of 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old bucks that I've seen in this state, period. That's not a very big sample size to be drawing any kind of conclusion from.

I agree that there isn't likely very many 6 or 7 point 4 1/2 year old bucks in this state, but AR's would promote that.

[buckhunter21]

I have access to my grandpas old farm land. We recently planted most of it in pines but they are only about knee high right now so they dont hold many deer. So i would say i hunt public land 80% or more of the time. Not sure why owning your own land would make you want QDM any more or less if theres bigger deer on private land theres gonna be bigger deer on public land.

[certified jumbo]

i've been watching this one for awile and i don't want to get to involved, but here's my .02 cents.

we have a 200 acre and 180 acre parcel. we choose not to shoot the 1.5 year old bucks. most times, but not all you can tell the difference in age. thats the only deer that gets the free pass for us. we've been doing this for 5 years and it has worked well. again, this is our choice and i'm not trying to push it on anybody else.

i'm not a big component of AR. but there is no way i buy that over time it will hurt the over all genetics of your deer. can't sell that one to me. i could give a rip what someone tells me in mississipi.

we have to take baby steps in order to get to AR. just straight up implimenting it would not work since the majority don't want it. a good first step would be NO party hunting for bucks. once that is implimented then you can look at the next step. but for now, its gotta be baby steps for anything to work.

cj

[Musky Buck]

So I'm reading that AR would work well if we backed up the opening of rifle season even by a week which would allow the AR decent bucks to breed before gun season ? I hunt all private ground. I have 3 rifle hunting areas. Area 1- Lose no sleep, no one is shooting baby bucks. Area 2- I cross my fingers everytime a runt buck goes by fearing the crack of the rifle 10 minutes later. Area 3- You take an immature buck and you are done hunting there forever. Guess what- areas 1 and 3 hold mature bucks and has mature bucks every year and area 2 occassionally has a mature buck, more often though it's last year's fawns sporting a basket rack, then the cycle continues to where no one is taking a decent buck. If we allow lets say hunters 21 and under and 60 and over to take any buck, they'd get some of these inferior animals off the hoof. I still think a legitamite 20 " spread, 210 dressed, thick racked 8 pointer is still a quality animal and it isn't like it's just his genetics in our area now, I see all sizes and kinds of racks, that 210 8 Pt. his first year was a Y on one side and no horn on the other, at 2 1/2 he was a large 6 pt. And at 3 1/2 when we gunned him down he was that big 8. We could've gunned him down as a 1 horn Y, or a 6, but left him alone and his 3rd year he was a dandy, age trumps most other factors.

[Bear55]

I can probably count on two hands the number of 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old bucks that I've seen in this state, period.

This statement here sums up our deer heard, and you have probably seen more mature deer than most. I am not huge AR fan if its that or the same old management I will gladly line up behind AR. Even if AR's were enforced for a short time or every few years it might be enough to open the eyes of the state and guys would start letting some deer walk.

[B. Amish]

i'm not a big component of AR. but there is no way i buy that over time it will hurt the over all genetics of your deer. can't sell that one to me. i could give a rip what someone tells me in mississipi.

cj

[DaveT]

I agree that there are better ways than AR to get the results we're after. I would look at it as a last resort, if at all. Party hunting for bucks and every 3rd doe tag getting slapped on a buck fawn are the 2 biggest problems we're facing.

I was encouraged that the buck harvest did not drop much in Michigan, though. It proves that there will be enough older bucks in the population to provide the same opportunity we have now. All of it does no good and is a waste of time if you continue to allow party hunting for bucks, however.

[james_walleye]

Yeah the whole problem with comparing MN deer genetics to Mississippi deer genetics is its like comparing the USC football program to the U of M football program....its not even close. Minnesotas deer genetics are superior, Mississippis is horrible. If you have a whole load of inferior genetically inferior deer running around breeding in MS, yeah protecting these deer you will see a negative impact. But your dealing with should i shoot this 3 year old buck that is a 4 pointer or have a law in place to let him walk. This is QDM in MN: should i harvest this 3 year old 8 pointer thats 125" because he isnt a 10-pointer, or should i let him walk. Its not comparing apples to apples. You don't have a bunch of genetically inferior deer walking around MN. About the only way you see a 2 or 3 year old buck in MN with less than 4 points on a side is due to injury. You don't have multiple 3 year old 4 pointers walking around the same property.

One thing people need to realize in this debate as well as how diverse MN's deer habitat is. You arent going to get a hunter in southwestern MN to go along with antler point restrictions when they have a deer herd in which they have a hard time seeing deer period in a firearm season. Compared to the guy in SE MN bluff country in which deer are much more populous. There are parts of MN where just getting a deer is a big challenge. There are parts of MN where a guy might be able to pass up 6 bucks on opening morning of the gun season. These areas need to be managed differently.

[Rippinlip]

How about a group drawing?

If you know you are going to be hunting in a group, you send in for a group deal.

Part of 10 gets 3 buck tags, they can now party hunt and harvest up to that number of deer.

If you buy a regular license, it is a "no party hunting for bucks" or "cross tagging".....

I am against EAB, have some problems with AR, but would favor AR if need to be.

[B. Amish]

Yeah the whole problem with comparing MN deer genetics to Mississippi deer genetics is its like comparing the USC football program to the U of M football program....its not even close. Minnesotas deer genetics are superior, Mississippis is horrible. If you have a whole load of inferior genetically inferior deer running around breeding in MS, yeah protecting these deer you will see a negative impact. But your dealing with should i shoot this 3 year old buck that is a 4 pointer or have a law in place to let him walk. This is QDM in MN: should i harvest this 3 year old 8 pointer thats 125" because he isnt a 10-pointer, or should i let him walk. Its not comparing apples to apples. You don't have a bunch of genetically inferior deer walking around MN. About the only way you see a 2 or 3 year old buck in MN with less than 4 points on a side is due to injury. You don't have multiple 3 year old 4 pointers walking around the same property.

One thing people need to realize in this debate as well as how diverse MN's deer habitat is. You arent going to get a hunter in southwestern MN to go along with antler point restrictions when they have a deer herd in which they have a hard time seeing deer period in a firearm season. Compared to the guy in SE MN bluff country in which deer are much more populous. There are parts of MN where just getting a deer is a big challenge. There are parts of MN where a guy might be able to pass up 6 bucks on opening morning of the gun season. These areas need to be managed differently.

We're not comparing our genetics to Mississippi's genetics. It doesn't matter if ours are better or worse. (but, how do you know that Mississippi's genetics are horrible).

The point is, is that AR's do two things to lower the genetic potential of the herd:

1. AR's make the cream of the crop 1 1/2 year olds legal to shoot. You can easily argue that these are the deer that have the most promising genetics. Being that they are legal and shootable, they won't be able to pass on their genetics if they are dead.

2. AR's protect deer under the restriction. Most are young bucks. BUT, the ones that have poorer racks are protected longer. Maybe they are below the AR for 2-3 years. Maybe they never grow a legal size rack. They continue to live and breed passing on their genetics.

There are the same genetic concerns in fishing when you have slot limits. But, that's a whole other can of worms.

[Musky Buck]

BobT that is what I meant, this change wouldn't change any of that.

[chub]

How about a group drawing?

If you know you are going to be hunting in a group, you send in for a group deal.

Part of 10 gets 3 buck tags, they can now party hunt and harvest up to that number of deer.

If you buy a regular license, it is a "no party hunting for bucks" or "cross tagging".....

So your party of ten happens to hunt a doe draw zone with very limited tags. They have been drawn for none. That might work once, but the following year, I would bet my house that all the members of that party would be hunting amazingly close to one another, quite possibly on the same parcel of land, but they wouldn't be "party hunting"... .

Or, half of the party that just went to be with friends and family and get out of the house for a few days would just quit altogether. It wouldn't bother me personally to see less people out there, but I would imagine the DNR would cringe at the thought of loosing more revenue.

Deer hunting is many things to many people. As things stand, it would seem to cater to most pretty well. We've got an enourmous population of hunters, that effectively hunt for four continuous months, then add the pheasant guys that are moving deer, the grouse guys that are moving deer, the waterfowl guys that are moving deer... . I'm not going to say there are alot of "big" bucks out there, but I seem to see more than a few every year. It's usually after dark, or back in the middle of an area that would be extremely hard, if not impossible to hunt.

I guess I'm happy the way things are. If I just want a deer to eat, I have options available. If I want to go after a "trophy", I can do that too. Odds might not be very good at getting one, but that in my eyes makes it even more satisfying. If everyone was shooting a "trophy" buck, would it really be all that special anymore?

I guess in my eyes, no.

[Musky Buck]

Is AR working in the Itasca State Park or has it been to short of a study period to make an educated guess ? This'll fire ya up. How about the first 4 days of the 9 any buck is legal. The next 5 days are AR. So you can get the any buck 4 day tag or the 9 day AR buck tag. Hmmm.

[96trigger]

I for one, don't think every one will be able to harvest a trophy buck if we go to AR. However, I do believe that it will not have the desired impact. If there was a way to save all the 1.5 year old and fork horn bucks without doing AR, I would be all for it, it would suck for one year, then I don't think we would hear many complaining. I don't have any idea how we would enforce it except to say no shooting baskets or forks, but I know that it would be virtually impossible. I do believe that AR will get a lot of small basket racked 8's with the most potential blasted.

Last year, my cousin shot a bruiser, but his rack was very odd and unsymmetrical, he had enormous mass and main beam length, and one side was very nice, the other was nice but not great. Hard to describe but we figured that it was a scrub buck that just got old (about 5 years). It green scored 140. It is now on his wall and might be the biggest buck he shoots. Moral of the story, I think any buck in this area that can get to 4 or 5 years old, can turn into a trophy like this one did. I just don't know if AR is the answer. I think education is better.

Also, I hunt mainly public land, and it is on the public land that I would like to see AR take place more than private. I think you have it backwards. On public land, many of the little bucks I see all fall bowhunting get blasted during firearm season by the hords of people that surround whitewater.

[Getanet]

Chub, I agree with you. If everyone is shooting trophy bucks, eventually it wouldn't be that special to see, or harvest one.

Even if the DNR were to implement some QDM methods and it's successful (two big ifs) where does it end?

We all know that hunter's appetite for seeing bigger deer and racks will never be satisfied.

[Bear55]

Chub, I agree with you. If everyone is shooting trophy bucks, eventually it wouldn't be that special to see, or harvest one.

This argument doesn't hold any water, just because there are more big bucks around it does not mean everyone will be shooting them and that its going to take away from the experience. Just ask some of the guys who live in areas that practice QDM, a mature buck is anything but gaurenteen. All we are asking for is a few changes to give people a realistic chance to see and harvest a mature buck every once in a while.

I agree that AR's probably aren't the answer but at this point I would say any change is good change, even if its only for a short time.

[lichen fox]

In the begining....God created man and the whitetailed deer...Hitler tried to control the genetic future of man and failed....now man wants to control the genetic future of deer...

[DaveT]

You're right Fox, I am the Antler Nazi. No more soup for you!

[Bear55]

In the begining....God created man and the whitetailed deer...Hitler tried to control the genetic future of man and failed....now man wants to control the genetic future of deer...

All I really want to control is the age. On the other hand ust imagine if we could genetically alter deer so they are born at the ripe old age of 4! However I don't think the does would think its that great of an idea.

[Musky Buck]

Not everyone will be blasting trophy bucks. I'm a huge QDM guy because if I need meat I'll buy beef, venison is just a luxury to me. QDM is no guarantee for each of us, but many in the area will tag a good buck, we just share the wealth so to speak, some years it's me, some years the neighbors get some big boys, some years it's quite a few of us and some years maybe hardly anyone. But, it sure is nice to see a bachelor herd in the summer that is made up of quality bucks and not bucks that will shave for the first time. If anyone can afford the internet you don't apparently need a deer or your priorities are skewed. No feedback on 4 days any buck or 9 day season's for AR people ? Let the shooting community brown it's down have 4 days and the AR licensed people have 9. This would allow the thinning still of small bucks or allow new hunters or veterans the choice. If breeding by inferior is an issue what is the peak breeding day, Nov. 9th or something? Start the rifles up about Nov.12th then. This would let the better bucks do most of the breeding, but I get it Amish, then the next season they would get bred by possibly inferior under the AR bucks the next season, I could see that not being the hope. How did we grow trophies in a state with party hunting and a firearms season during the peak of the rut? WE DID sorry DaveT. Pressure and few if any deer sanctuaries is the new concern. As a state of 6 million folks, we can now bow, rifle, musket any or all of the seasons with party hunting, with more days in old zone 4 to rifle hunt with most parcels below a line from Duluth to Moorhead being hunted or having a stand on every corner and in between, I'm out.

[Black_Bay]

Some of the arguments concerning genetics are way over blown here and there have been many what if's. Mississippi and Arkansas had deer herds that went through human caused population bottle necks that resulted in herd sizes of maybe 1000 animals statewide. In fact Arkansas had only a few hundered deer. There's not much genetic diversity that comes from a few hundered animals. So to compare places like that to Minnesota is a grapes to watermelon comparison. Minnesota's statewide herd never has gone through that. The herd in the southwest has very small but was rebuilt in part by new animals moving in along with enacting stricter game laws. Our herds have, for the most part, been strengthened by mother nature. Meaning the strong survive following hard winters. Our subspecies Odocoileus virginianus borealis, the northern white tail, and probably some Odocoileus virginianus dacotensis, the Dakota/Northern Plains white-tailed deer, are the largest of the 17 subspecies and are capable of developing some of the largest antlers. The genetics are here now. As far as small racked mature deer destroying the genetics of the herd, well that's just rediculous.

The following exert is from a paper also from Mississippi State. MULTIPLE PATERNITY IN WHITE-TAILED DEER (ODOCOILEUS VIRGINIANUS) REVEALED BY DNA MICROSATELLITES

Randy W. DeYoung*a, Stephen Demaraisa, Robert A. Gonzalesb, Rodney L. Honeycuttc, and Kenneth L. Geeb

aDepartment of Wildlife and Fisheries, Box 9690, Mississippi State, MS 39762 (RWD, SD)

bSamuel Roberts Noble Foundation, P.O. Box 2180, Ardmore, OK 73402 (RAG, KLG)

cDepartment of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences, Texas A&M University, College Station, TX 77843 (RLH)

"The occurrence and rate of multiple paternity in a free-ranging deer population probably depends upon population demographics. Male reproductive success in cervids is influenced by male social rank (Clutton-Brock et al. 1982; McElligot and Hayden 2000). McCullough (1979) suggested that males probably do not achieve the social status required to breed until they are physically mature, after 3.5 years of age. In populations with a balanced sex ratio and diverse age structure, male white-tailed deer are thought to maintain a strict dominance hierarchy in which physically mature males dominate immature males. A small number of dominant males probably possess breeding rights (Marchinton and Hirth 1984) and may displace subordinate males that are tending females. Subordinate males are thought to achieve reproductive success only through surreptitious fertilization or kleptogamy. However, in populations that lack physically mature males, yearling males may breed without establishing a formal social hierarchy (Ozoga and Verme 1985), thereby increasing the likelihood that an individual male will sire offspring."

Basically the 3.5 year old + bucks are the ones doing a vast majority of the breeding in balanced populations, like the ones that AR can help recreate. In unbalanced populations 1.5 year olds will breed BUT that does not mean that inferior genes are being passed on. Some are way too worried about the tiny fraction of a percent of the herd that may have inferior genes doing the breeding. As I've posted before you can't see genes. No one can tell how big a rack a 1.5 year old will have in later years. There are more than genetics that determine rack size. This year may well prove that just due to the hard winter in the northeast part of the state. Bucks that may have sported say a 170 inch rack may be lucky to be 130 due to the fact that they are putting energy back into gaining weight rather than a large rack.

Guys are also worried about 1.5 year old 8 pointers getting shot because of AR. Well those same deer are getting shot now so that wouldn't change. IMO the only real compromise the DNR can make between the way deer are managed now statewide and managing for a more balanced herd with older age deer statewide is through antler restrictions. Any other management strategies are either now applicible statewide, EAB, or would result in the reduction in hunters, buck lottery. The way things are going this year it would not suprise me if some areas in the northeast are bucks only. There's no way EAB could work in that situation and a buck lottery would not allow many people to hunt if they didn't get a license. Antler restrictions would still allow the herd to come back after hard winters and still allow people a chance to hunt along with the intended purpose of balancing the age structure of the herd.

One more thing. I'd like to see one paper on how slot limits have hurt fish genetics.

[B. Amish]

One more thing. I'd like to see one paper on how slot limits have hurt fish genetics.

[james_walleye]

Dude you are totally missing his point. Just because a year and a half old has an 8 point rack doesnt mean he has better genetics than a fork horn. Its common knowledge that genetics don't show themselves at 1 1/2 years old. The determining factor in a 1 1/2 year old bucks rack is when he was born and how he got through his first winter. The bottom line is the MN deer herd has genetics so superior that pretty much any buck given the time will develop to 140". And how do i know the MS deer herd has subpar genetics? I do alot of reading, i wouldnt throw that out if it wasnt true. The MS and AL deer herds have subpar genetics. In MN your average 3 year old buck is going to be in that 130" range. Some might be 125", some 140". You don't see 3 year olds forkhorns in MN, it doesnt happen. In MS you don't have a typical 3 year old. You'll have some nice 8's and 10's and a whole load of mutant forkhorns and 6 pointers as well. Yeah if those deer are protected and allowed to breed your going to have a mess. Again, a genetically inferior 3 year old in MN will be an 8 pointer that is 125" rather than a 10-pointer, and if you want to harvest this "genetically inferior" deer you can under AR. And how about this nugget, for every random inferior buck that may get through and allowed to breed at 2 or 3 years old, how many superior bucks would be allowed a free pass to 2 years old and given more opportunities to breed, opportunities they are not given right now. You absolutely can't compare MS and MN.

Also again, AR wouldnt be suitable for the whole state of MN. In my mind would have a nice impact in some parts of the state. Other parts of the state you can't ask people to pass up a 6 pointer when it might be the only deer they see in a 9 day season.

[Getanet]

James Walleye, can you clarify where you sit on this issue. Are you for AR, against AR, or for AR in certain parts of the state? I've read your posts and I'm uncertain.

Personally I'm against AR. Mainly because I think there are enough rules and regs as it stands. But I also feel the habitat in MN is too diverse to establish any QDM rules across the entire state.

Where I hunt in the east-central part of state my group has seen more and bigger bucks in recent years, and while I can't give you a specific reason, I'm confident it has nothing to do with any QDM practices.

[Bear55]

Well said guys. Maybe something like this would work.

Intensive Harvest Area - AR + No Buck Party Hunting

Management Areas - No Buck Party Hunting

Lotto Areas - Brown Its Down

[B. Amish]

Dude, I do see his point and I fully agree that you can't judge 1 1/2 year old genetics on antlers alone. But, when two bucks born at the same time and live through the same growing seasons and winter seasons end up with different sized racks for their first year, you don't think genetics has anything to do with that?

Are you sure we don't have some bad genetics in MN? Have you never seen an older buck in MN without brow tines? I would call that a inferior genetic characteristic.

[Bear55]

Where I hunt in the east-central part of state my group has seen more and bigger bucks in recent years, and while I can't give you a specific reason, I'm confident it has nothing to do with any QDM practices.

I've noticed something similar to what you are seeing in the northern bigwoods about 5-8 years ago. Suddenly there were a few big bucks around, I attribute it the larger population we have seen the past decade or so, if there are that many deer a few bucks might actually slip through the cracks. Since then some of us saw what was possible and decided to lay off the young bucks and things have been ok, we are on public land so its not easy. We've gotten a few more big deer but most of the time our neighbors take care the little guys we pass up. The bucks are alwasy on the move during the rut so the deer you are seeing could also have been passed up by people practicing QDM several miles away.