Tribal Gill Nets- Video Link

[HAppnhook]

By 12:05 am Saturday you can be sure this conversation will be well out of my mind!

Happy opener!

[The Grebe]

Got a question here...for no one in particular, just wondering if anyone out there knows for sure weither or not the live walleyes that are gill netted, could somehow be milked of their spawn before they are introduced to the knife?

I really do not know what this ensues and I certainly don't know the dynamics of how it is done and what the requirements are, but it seems that if it is a live fish with eggs, something could be done? Just a thought

[smokie30]

It makes me sick what's happening. Who's the protecting the future here.

[ANYFISH]

The viablity of the eggs would be very dependant on whether or not the fish are "ripe". Stress may also play a negitive role.

I would like the idea if it were fesiable (if the bands would allow to pen live walleyes till ripe). But I have my doubts to it ever happening. It would benifit both sides.

[Sandmannd]

Stupid question, the treaty was signed in the 1800's right? So if they want to net, then do it like you did back then. Row out in a deer skin boat and get what you can. It's not the same as when the treaty was made. We need to start getting some of the money from casino's as well. Would help take care of the roads and everything else the tribes use. I not against them, but to make millions and the state not get anything is wrong to me.

[harvey lee]

Maybe one should call their Senators and such and ask them to do something about it. Thats about the only way anything will change for sure.

[Cedarcreek]

All of the opinions are true to an extent. the spawn make the fish more vulnerable to be caught by the nets. The fish are predictable and shallow /grouped up etc. If it was just as easy to catch them in the summer then why do all the nets seem to go out right at the spawn. As for harvest of a fish in an none spawn time. sure it wont spawn again but the amount of fish harvested in these times would be significantly less due to them being less vulnerable. fish are more diverse in locations. Well this will always be an issue of opinions so let it be at that.

[liljohnson]

Ojibwa never used a deer skin boat.Should the walleye limit be adjusted also because those limits were made before gps,fish finders, 150 h.p motors ect.? I believe one reason the tribal netters execise there treaty rights in this paticular time of the year is cause theres less people on the lake. If they did it after opener there would be boats running over the nets left and right Dont you think?

[cjac]

 Quote:

Maybe one should call their Senators and such and ask them to do something about it. Thats about the only way anything will change for sure.

Great point, the voice of the people is a powerful vehicle in our government.

Here is a link to the House of Representatives for the state of Minnesota. I have voiced my thoughts on various issues in the past and have received replies that were very encouraging. Be it local issues or statewide, my representative has received my input on issues and responded me. My rep has in fact asked me for more information on some issues, they do listen.

House Reps

[bigbritt]

the real problem with getting any real results via the state government is that it isnt a state ruling!.....its a supreme court ruling! lots of time and deliberation was spent on this and other native issues....and isnt likely to change. dont get me wrong though, I dont like this at all either...i think its outdated, unecessary these days and a waste of resources that you and i pay for. But its a monster of a mountain to climb, but maybe there is other options? the total value of that fish caught couldnt be too much in the grand scheme of things....maybe another avenue for these folks to find revenue? and the casino argument cant really be made here because the mille lacs band isnt the real problem...its the WI tribes.

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Say whatever any of you will, one thing remains...it is by Mutual Agreement, between the US Government and the Tribes, that it was decided, that the Tribes could continue the Right to Harvest by line or net or whatever, as long as the Agreement remained in effect...and it remains to this day...

These Rights were part of the Larger Agreement for transferring Peacefully, the other Rights of Vast Territories, that the Tribes controlled, at the time of the Agreements, into US jurisdiction...they were made under threat of violent intervention by the U.S. if not agreed to, and avoided much Bloodshed on both sides...and your homes are built on this Land...

These Agreements, included the right of Inheritance, by the Decendants of the Tribes...just like the right of Inheritance by any Decendants of any Estate...yours and mine included...

In many of the lakes where netting is reduced, or is no longer, it is because Federal or State Governments, Purchased these rights, for Annual Cash Reimbursment, or you might very well still see Legal netting by the Tribes, on Hundreds of Minnesota lakes...approximately $2-$3 of each Annual Individual fishing Liscense goes toward these payments...

So the right Legally remains...the Harvest by Anglers overall, usually far exceeds that of the Tribes, the Tribes harvests are Legally Protected, and the Tribes are Protected by Legal Agreement, by the United States, and the United States of America is Compelled by these Agreements and by Treaties, to Protect the Tribes and their Rights, as Wards of the United States of America...

So, if you are unhappy with the situation, you need to vent your anger towards the Governments of the United States of America, and the State of Minnesota, for upholding these various Legally Protected Rights...

As far as the video, did the guy making this, and do the people Aghast at this, belong to PETA???

I saw nothing unusual or horrific at all in this...I saw a nice catch being dutifully filleted...if this is shocking to you perhaps you have never had a nice catch...or seen blood when harvesting Fish or Game, in which case you have never cleaned your Harvest...

I saw containers of nice live fish, not old stiff, faded, milk-eyed, cardboardy fish, that had been floating dead in someones livewell all day long...I saw fish that most say are too big for themselves to keep anyway, and I didn't see a bunch of people embarassed by their catch, but rather uncomfortable with the invasion of their privacy, by a jabber-mouthed, inconsiderate individual, obviously trying to make them look bad, but not succeeding...

OHHHH MYYYY, look at that, ONE Big Perch was caught, how terrible...and IS THAT A NORTHERN, OR TWO NORTHERNS???, and so what???...is it now terrible to keep Northerns...any Moron can catch a bunch of Northern in Mille Lacs, and in most lakes, and keep them any day of the week...

As far as any being sold, if they are, it is your Restaurants that are doing most of the buying...and how many Anglers are giving away part of their Harvest, and then not counting them as in Possesion, and going out and Harvesting more, to be able to continue this???

_____________________________________________________________________________

Get Educated...Get a Life.

[Moe Szyslak]

 Originally Posted By: MOBY RICHARD

I saw nothing unusual or horrific at all in this...I saw a nice catch being dutifully filleted...if this is shocking to you perhaps you have never had a nice catch...or seen blood when harvesting Fish or Game, in which case you have never cleaned your Harvest...

Get Educated...Get a Life.

Last time I checked there was a slot limit for us non-tribe members and we werent able to keep containers full of eyes well over 25+"........... not that we would anyways.

[BID2]

If the slot is your problem. Fish a lake that dosent have it. simple.

[Moe Szyslak]

 Originally Posted By: BID2

If the slot is your problem. Fish a lake that dosent have it. simple.

Slot is not my problem, i just wanted him to get his facts straight. I could care less if they made ML C&R only. I dont keep walleyes to eat, I fish to fish.

[smokie30]

The slots don't bother me. Actually I would like to see a

state minium of 15", with 1 over 22".

I made me sick a few years ago when the DNR was stocking

Lake Reno, by Alex, and people were going home with

5 gallon pails full of 10 to 12 inch walleyes.

I like fish, but not so much to clean a 10 -12 inch walleye that

would not have hardly any meat on it.

Now fishing on Lake Reno, sucks. It was better than Mille Lacs.

People are just greedy. ONLY TAKE WHAT YOU, OR FAMILY CAN EAT.

TAKING 3 SMALL FISH DON"T EQUAL 1 NICE FISH!!!

[Scott M]

Moby, you put some good information forward, but where did you get this:

 Originally Posted By: MOBY RICHARD

...approximately $2-$3 of each Annual Individual fishing Liscense goes toward these payments...

I don't know if buyout payments were one time or annuities (but if my memory serves me correctly it was one time), but I've never seen a breakdown of fishing licenses listing $2-$3 bucks for tribal payments.

*************

On a different point, where are you guys seeing all these slot fish? They catch a few, but the majority of the tribe's catch are sub-20" males still in the spawning areas. Check the annual tally. The tribe must record length and sex of each fish. This tidbit of information was posted last summer when the same tribal bashing and misinformation reared its ugly head.

It's easier to complain, whine, and point fingers than find facts or accept our nation's history I guess.

[Moe Szyslak]

 Originally Posted By: da_chise31

On a different point, where are you guys seeing all these slot fish? They catch a few, but the majority of the tribe's catch are sub-20" males still in the spawning areas. Check the annual tally. The tribe must record length and sex of each fish. This tidbit of information was posted last summer when the same tribal bashing and misinformation reared its ugly head.

It's easier to complain, whine, and point fingers than find facts or accept our nation's history I guess.

Regarding my response, you are right. I didnt see the numbers. But those large eyes seen in the video dont look like they are under 20".

[Farmboy1]

 Quote:

Say whatever any of you will, one thing remains...it is by Mutual Agreement, between the US Government and the Tribes, that it was decided, that the Tribes could continue the Right to Harvest by line or net or whatever, as long as the Agreement remained in effect...and it remains to this day...

You are correct....

Article 5 The privilege of hunting, fishing..... during the pleasure of the President of the United States.

 Quote:

These Rights were part of the Larger Agreement for transferring Peacefully, the other Rights of Vast Territories, that the Tribes controlled, at the time of the Agreements, into US jurisdiction...they were made under threat of violent intervention by the U.S. if not agreed to, and avoided much Bloodshed on both sides...and your homes are built on this Land...

You are right, these territories were given to the US Federal Government, the states do not have any jurisdiction over the tribes, but the states do give the tribes funding.

Article 1 The said Chippewa nation cede to the United States all that tract of country included within the following boundaries: I did not add the lands description for size issues.

 Quote:

These Agreements, included the right of Inheritance, by the Decendants of the Tribes...just like the right of Inheritance by any Decendants of any Estate...yours and mine included...

Again, at the pleasure of the president.

 Quote:

In many of the lakes where netting is reduced, or is no longer, it is because Federal or State Governments, Purchased these rights, for Annual Cash Reimbursment,

Uhhmm, not so much.

Article 2 In consideration of the cession aforesaid, the United States agree to make to the Chippewa nation, annually, for the term of twenty years, from the date of the ratification of this treaty, the following payments. (Payment schedule removed for size reasons)

 Quote:

...approximately $2-$3 of each Annual Individual fishing Liscense goes toward these payments...

Please let me know where you have found this information. I have not found anything from the MN DNR or the state financial statements that have any tie of license fees to the tribes. I would be interested to know your source.

 Quote:

So the right Legally remains...the Harvest by Anglers overall, usually far exceeds that of the Tribes,

I feel the need to address this specifically. The 2006 MN census says theer are 5,167,101 people are in MN. The percentage who are native american is 1.2% or 62,005 for all tribes. I could not find information on how many of these are actual Mille Lacs band, or who can net here. Take these numbers and divide the overall pounds of fish on the lake gets us to .09 lbs of fish for non-tribe, and 1.98 lbs for the tribes.

The camparison is not fair to say the overall pounds without taking into account the population differences. And before you jump me, I don't have any info on the WI bands who net here, but there are also other MN bands who do not net Mille Lacs, so I feel it is a fair comparison.

 Quote:

So, if you are unhappy with the situation, you need to vent your anger towards the Governments of the United States of America, and the State of Minnesota, for upholding these various Legally Protected Rights...

Now here is something we can all agree on.

 Quote:

As far as the video, did the guy making this, and do the people Aghast at this, belong to PETA???

I saw nothing unusual or horrific at all in this...I saw a nice catch being dutifully filleted...if this is shocking to you perhaps you have never had a nice catch...or seen blood when harvesting Fish or Game, in which case you have never cleaned your Harvest...

I saw containers of nice live fish, not old stiff, faded, milk-eyed, cardboardy fish, that had been floating dead in someones livewell all day long...I saw fish that most say are too big for themselves to keep anyway, and I didn't see a bunch of people embarassed by their catch, but rather uncomfortable with the invasion of their privacy, by a jabber-mouthed, inconsiderate individual, obviously trying to make them look bad, but not succeeding...

I guess I did not see anything that was disrespectful from the person making the video. He did not confront anyone, or do anything that would tell me he was being anything other then an observer. He did make an attempt to talk to a few persons, but was not disrepectful at all. I think peoples shock comes from the fact that they have never seen the quantities of fish being pulled from nets.

 Quote:

OHHHH MYYYY, look at that, ONE Big Perch was caught, how terrible...and IS THAT A NORTHERN, OR TWO NORTHERNS???, and so what???...is it now terrible to keep Northerns...any Moron can catch a bunch of Northern in Mille Lacs, and in most lakes, and keep them any day of the week...

I have no problem with keeping any of these fish for myself or with you keeping them. Fish do not live after being in gill nets, to not utilize them would make me sick.

 Quote:

As far as any being sold, if they are, it is your Restaurants that are doing most of the buying...and how many Anglers are giving away part of their Harvest, and then not counting them as in Possesion, and going out and Harvesting more, to be able to continue this???

From the GLIFWC Regulations for Mille Lacs. Only Substinence netting is allowed from March 2, to May 31 So until a few days ago, all these fish are not allowed to be sold. And to compare anglers to commercial fisherman is an apples to oranges comparison.

 Quote:

Get Educated...Get a Life.

Take your own advice.

I have a few questions that have gone unanswered in all my questions asked. The GLIFWC and the DNR has dodged them in all correspondence.

1. If the enforcement of nets is what is stated, why can they not give accurate counts of nets lost? This information was supposed to be noted in the permit for each day nets are set. Maybe the enforcement is not what they say it is?

2. Are the persons who lost these nets going to be fined based on what is stated in the regulations from the tribes?

3. How do these lost nets count into the quota for the lake? I would think that each day they are left in the water should count as additional quotas lost.

4. Why is it that tribes can camp on public accesses directly underneath the "no Camping" Signs? Why is this law not enforced?

5. I have caught fish with deep wounds and missing fins that is very obvious were caused by fish outside of the size caught in the nets. This is an unfortunate problem with gill nets. My question is why does this not count in a mortailty factor similar to anglers delayed hooking mortality. I don't think you can argue that these nets do not harm or maime fish not caught directly.

MOBYRICHARD. I would be more then happy to share a boat with you at any time. I have the utmost respect for the natives I know, and the culture they have. Where I think we differ is there are laws that some of us have to follow, where as others are not required to follow. We are using the past to dictate modern biological practices, which simply does not work anymore then riding a horse to work would work. Times have changed...maybe not for the better, but they have changed.

Sorry for the long post, and please take no disrespect from this, I simply felt that there were some liberties taken that needed to be address specificaly. Again, I would be more then happy to share a boat or a beer with you to discuss these items, or just share some of the waters we all call home.

Brent

[MNmikew]

I heard on KQ this AM (from Passolt) that CH 9 is having a story on this tonight.

[Farmboy1]

Fox Nine News tonight at both 9 and 10. It is a two part story, so watch both times.

[Jim Panfish Uran]

You're a good man Farm boy for taking the time to look at both sides of the picture.

The reason they net in the spring and fall is because the water temps are cold and the fish hold up better. If they were to net in the summer the fish would rot over night.

And come on Moe, you can just feel the hatred when you write about this topic.

[Moe Szyslak]

 Originally Posted By: leechbait

And come on Moe, you can just feel the hatred when you write about this topic.

Regardless of the treaty signed, the whole inequality thing between different groups of people regardless of the past just irks me.

[hhguide]

I think thats just sick if you ask me

[Grant Pearson]

that's just a disgusting video. I'm all for letting them net due to the treaty, but if they are going to net, do it the way they did it when the treaty was signed.

[Jim Panfish Uran]

technlogy has changed for both natives and for non-natives. It's benefited both sides.

If you were on the other end of those treaties signed you'd have a different outlook too. History is too hard to overlook. Growing up as a native in a non native town was pretty tough and people, not all people, can be pretty degrading. We have every right to hold on to what we have left. Whether it's a tradition we can still practice or a language and culture we are trying to pass on it all matters to us.

Just asking you to open your eyes a little more and realize this is bigger than some fish.

[Moe Szyslak]

 Originally Posted By: leechbait

technlogy has changed for both natives and for non-natives. It's benefited both sides.

If you were on the other end of those treaties signed you'd have a different outlook too. History is too hard to overlook. Growing up as a native in a non native town was pretty tough and people, not all people, can be pretty degrading. We have every right to hold on to what we have left. Whether it's a tradition we can still practice or a language and culture we are trying to pass on it all matters to us.

Just asking you to open your eyes a little more and realize this is bigger than some fish.

You should have to practice it as it was done back when the treaty was signed then.

[fishgutz77]

Mutual agreement? This was signed before the civil war for petes sake.

And a mutual agreement while not satifying everyone would not lead to this level of angst.

This is a ruling handed down by a court that took only into consideration language that is 150+ years old.

Where are all the tree huggers and nature lovers now!

Want to send a kid on hunt through make a wish and you get a big stink going but start killing through a commercial netting in the states greatest sport fishery and no outrage hmmmmm.

This is subsistance netting and spearing?

With a casino at the lakes door step and generating millions wy is there any reason for a netting operation of this scale on this lake? Preserve your cultural heritage through peacful event netting with traditional methods, I'm all for it. but don't insult us with this.

We should enter into a trap netting agreement with the tribes to allow the fish to be milked and then the DNR could use this resource for ML and other tribal lakes that both sides enjoy.

You could then sort through fish and take only what could be used by whoever the tribes are selling them to. If restants want fish between 19" and 22" they could get them and fill as much of the quota as possible. MILK and RELEASE with a managed slot.

possibly a win win.

[Jim Panfish Uran]

Some people just have racism built too far into their brains they just can't see the bigger picture. People like you won't be satisfied until all of our rights are obliterated and we are fully assimilated into your way of life. HITLERISM, By the way I'm not from Mille Lacs but I can see your point, I'm not for commercial fishing, but I am for holding on to traditions no matter how much opposition there is.

[DHanson]

There is no challenge to gill netting. Just throw your net out there and catch a ton of fish during the spawn.....real hard. The problem here is that the natives total harvest poundage has gone up and they still are thriving for more poundage in the future years to come. How in the world do they need 122,000 pounds of fish for the 450 tribal members that participate in the netting/spearing operation? I ask where are all of these fish going? There is no way they can eat all of those fish among the small number of tribal members. It seems reasonable to assume they are selling these fish, which is illegal. There is also evidence of wasted fish reported by the Mille Lacs Messenger in the past that found piles of whole fish that were not filleted or anything dumped behind the school. They must have gotten sick of cleaning fish? Also, when these gill nets were lost underneath the ice, why were the natives not out there trying to retrieve them after the fact the ice was not over the nets any more. That should have been their first priority. Instead, they go to the other side of the lake and continue netting while the lost nets are floating around in no mans land. Very dis-respectful to the fishery.

This netting/spearing operation has nothing to do with heritage. If it is, your native ancestors would be ashamed of what's taking place. It is dis-respectful to place gill nets out on the water without taking into consideration the weather forecasts for the following day. If they are forecasting 25-40 mph winds from the east and you put your gill nets on the west side of the lake with lake still half-iced over, that is dis-respectul to the fishery, dis-respectful to the state, and dis-respectful to the wildlife in general. This is not the 1800s any more, harvesting of fish by the usage of a gill net is morally wrong. This comes down to what is ethically right and what is ethically wrong. To use a gill net this day and age is ethically wrong. Treat the lake with respect.

This has nothing to do with race. Like I already stated, it's about ethics. Taking fish by the usage of a net is wrong. The natives did it a long time ago for food because food was hard to come by then. It is now 2008, it is not as hard to find food this day and age as it was then. They are not netting all of these fish to stay alive, they are doing it because they can and they like to have that power to net when noone else can. It makes me sick.

[ANYFISH]

I may be wrong, but I do not believe the DNR stocks Mille Lacs , because it produces well enough naturally. I type this before researching so sorry if I am wrong.