legality of shooting over private property?

[hanso612]

I need help making an argument on another thread. I want to be sure of the facts before posting. 1. When hunting a WMA can one shoot at a bird that flushes from the WMA but is now in air space over private property. 2. I'm looking for written regulations or statutes or rulings in individual court cases.3 What specifically in the deeds, abstacts, or easments allows ditch hunting in South Dakota but makes it questionable in MN? Thanks for any help. Hans.

[Tom7227]

You need a lawyer to answer all of the things involved in those questions. How much you willing to spend?

[giwoyna5]

Ok don't quote me on this, as I am a surveyor not a lawyer or assesor. I THINK the reason SD gets away with road hunting is the property owners are not assesed property taxes against the roadway, It is excluded from their total acreage. Where MN prop owners are assesed for their whole acreage including the road.

Like I said don't quote me, as I am unsure. I will do a little research.....

If I am wrong, by all means call me out on this.

[Hammer Handle]

I called a retired CO just now that I know...and he said you cannot shoot at game on, over, or under private property without permission.

I asked him where that is written...and he didn't know. He said you cannot retrieve the game with your firearm, so why would shooting game over the line be legal?

I would like to see where this is written too.

So, if I see a deer running on a field..and it jumps...can I shoot it? "But officer, it was in the air when I shot!" To me, the answer is common sense.

No matter what is written and how it is written, people will find "loopholes". Is it right or illegal will be up to the CO at times.

[duckster]

An officer once told me always ask the guy that is going to arrest you for it. I have always thought that was good advise.

Duckster

[rundrave]

I cant find anything for the state of MN. I cant find a true clear definition of this. I did find this info on page 12 of the huning handbook:

• A person on foot may, without permission, enter land that is not

posted to retrieve a wounded animal that was lawfully shot, but

may not remain on the land after being told to leave.

• A person on foot may, without permission, enter private land

without a firearm to retrieve a hunting dog. After retrieving the

dog, the person must immediately leave the premises. This

exception does not authorize the taking of the wild animal.

Here are the South Dakota Rules, that clearly explain:

• Hunters can take only small game (except doves) and waterfowl within

the right-of-way on foot. The hunter must be within the right-of-way

and the game must have taken flight from within or be flying over

the right-of-way.

• Small game and waterfowl taken from the right-of-way but falling onto

private property can be retrieved by unarmed hunters on foot.

[sparcebag]

Hunters can take only small game (except doves) and waterfowl within

the right-of-way on foot. The hunter must be within the right-of-way

and the game must have taken flight from within or be flying over

the right-of-way

So right there It's Illeagle in SD to shoot over private property

[hanso612]

I regularly hunt with three retired Co's from Kentucky who were perplexed by the lask of clarification in Minnesota's rule. Even when asking current CO's in Mn I get conflicting information. I I am often made to feel as if I'm trying to get away with something when ever I bring this subject up. (There is something intrisicley wrong with that.) As a hunter who prides himself on always following both the spirit and letter of the law it is frustrating to get the looks I get when asking these tough questions. Just what is the spirit of our law?

I think the state needs to take a stand and decide(regardless of how difficult the legal fight) whether this is something they want to encourage or discourage. With global warming, I see an opportunity for Mn to become a destination Pheasant state. Being able to hunt ditches would help spread the added pressure when the pheasant hayday comes again. I would open my ditches and fencelines adjacent to the WMA if I knew others would do the same.

Thanks for the great post, Rundrave.

[ScoutII]

It does seem that the state believes this is not a major enough issue and I believe they have no real authority in such a mater as they are not the GOVERNING BODY on such an issue. Township and County boards usually prevail on such issues.

No ones rights are being violated if you are not allowed to hunt a road ditch. In fact others rights are being PROTECTED.

Most activities that are LICENSED are privalages to do an activity, not a RIGHT to do the activity.

This may be a poor analogy but, Lower Red Lake is not open to non-band members of the community for fishing. It according to tresspass laws should be legally accesible, why do people end up in court for even accidentaly crossing that line?

Also if you feel so strongly, WHY do you have to WAIT for someone else to open thier ditchs to public hunting before you will do the same? Seems a little conditional on your part.

[hanso612]

Your right Scout, it's more than a little conditional. I'm trying to get others to see that hunting ditches is a good thing ans hope others open their ditches as well. It might be a paradigm shift for landowners but ditch hunters especially those used to the South Dakota rules could continue to do what they are already doing with the law clearly on there side. I know many hunters who work in Souix Falls but live in Mn who find it hard to find public land and see little differance between rural MN and rural SD. Factory workers working on the same line but have different rules depending on where they live. I know it happens all the time, but it seems unfair.

I appreciate all the feed back you have given recently and hope it continues. I have many flaws in my arguments and your questions have help me refine my thoughts. Thanks, Hans.

[Hammer Handle]

I guess I only see hunting ditches as a bad thing.

It can get dangerous and illegal pretty easy.

There has to be other solutions. Making road hunting legal is NOT a good solution. It will hurt all hunting in the long run.

[jigging-matt]

I have to disagree about ditch hunting being a bad thing. I grew up in SD and did lots of ditch hunting. Was great. still did a lot of walking. But it also beat beating the same piece of CRP over and over. I wish it was easier to do in MN. Or at least not as confusing. Just like everything else, as soon as the iresponsible people start abusing something it gets a bad rap for everyone.

[hanso612]

Hammer Handle, My point is not to make ditch hunting legal, it already is,I just want it easier to find out where. I also feel much safer hunting alone in a ditch than in a field with others. Remember the ditches I'm refering to are away from farmsteads and next to picked crops. I cant think of an easier place to determine if its safe to shoot, (or know for sure what is beyond your target) than on an open road next to open farmland. It's the safest place to hunt. Everyone can see you and you can see everyone in range. Cars are rarely an issue. If someone can't tell a car is coming and is on the road in the direction they are shooting I sure don't want that person hunting by me in a WMA. I'm talking section roads here not highways.

What I see is a bad thing is population growth and rising land prices. Our own piece of hunting property is a myth unreachable for most americans today. They are not making any more land and what little there is is priced out of reach for 98% of us. Read lawdog's post on why no new WMA coming soon. I believe in public hunting and as long as I can type I am going to fight for every inch of public land. I couldn't live with myself if public hunting ended on my watch and I did nothing to stop it. I have private land to hunt today, but I'm fighting for your kids and mine.

[harvey lee]

I always try to hunt public or private land where I do not have to deal with issues like this. When one hunts close to the property lines, someone is going to be or get upset.

When I go hunting for anything, I try and do some scouting ahead of time so I dont have to worry about these issues. Its a quick way to ruin a nice trip or hunting vacation.

I realize its hard to access land everywhere but it is possible to find both public and private land that one can hunt without getting to close to breaking rules or laws. Yes, its hard work and time consuming to find or locate these farms but they are out there.

There are states that are really working on solving these land issues for finding places to hunt. The last time I was hunting deer in Montana, they have a program thats great for land access and its very easy to access land for the non landowner or non resident.

If it were not for a few bad apples that seem to always ruin it foir everyone else thats law abiding, these issues would not arise.

Even with land prices as high as they are, many if not all states will come to find new ways for non landowners to still be able to enjoy hunting. There is simply to much money to be lost if this were to become much more of a problem.

I would call or write your senators or legislatores and ask them to look for news ways to promote land access. They can make a change if they know that enough sportsman and women are concerned.

[sparcebag]

Heres a reply from the DNR;

Thanks Jim heres what is confusing me.

I'm hunting a road ditch road to fenceline about 33 feet wide a bird gets up and flies over the road,Can I shoot that bird?

Same senareo I'm in the road ditch a bird flushes and flies too the feild past the fence line,Can I shoot the bird?

Hello,

Yes, you could discharge across a road. The 500ft rule does apply to dwelling or live stock. If a vehicle was coming you could be charged with the reckless discharge of a firearm.

If that bird is flying over posted or agricultural land, I would not discharge my firearm. If an officer was driving by or watching you could be charged with trespassing for not having permission to discharge. And you still would need permission to go and retrieve that bird. If not ag land or posted sure you could discharge and retrieve.

good luck

ji

James Abernathy

DNR Information Consultant

500 Lafayette Rd Box 40

St Paul Mn 55155

651-296-6157

1-888-646-6367m

[Augusta]

 Originally Posted By: hanso612

What I see is a bad thing is population growth and rising land prices. Our own piece of hunting property is a myth unreachable for most americans today. They are not making any more land and what little there is is priced out of reach for 98% of us. Read lawdog's post on why no new WMA coming soon. I believe in public hunting and as long as I can type I am going to fight for every inch of public land. I couldn't live with myself if public hunting ended on my watch and I did nothing to stop it. I have private land to hunt today, but I'm fighting for your kids and mine.

hanso612, I love your spirit, we need more people like you!

As for your ditch hunting idea.....Not sure yet here where I stand on that issue, but I have been watching this thread as it has progressed. I can see both sides to the arguement at this point.

[hanso612]

Harvey, that's what I do too, and that's what I recomend for now. There will come a time where population has encroached to the point where little open land is available to hunt because it will be within city limits. It's already happened in third ring suburbs of the twin cities. The segmentation of the northwoods is another area of concern, luckily conservation groups have steped up and purchased chunks while land prices are still reasonable. In pheasant country we are seeing these same (non hunting groups) step up but it's to preserve native prarie not hunting. I'm pushing to get this same area of acreage set aside in pheasant country -only one ditch at a time.

Other states have tried some creative things. Cities in Colorado are buffering towns with no build zones mostly to preserve views and keep everyone on city sewer and water-but it makes sense. Have high density housing surrounded by public open space. No better time to do that here in Minnesota than now, but we are going to make some people upset. If we don't our kids will see strip malls from coast to coast. For things like this to happen it takes progressive thinkers to challenge landowners and politcians alike and in some cases for the state to take land by emminant domane. If we don't do it who will?

This fight will be nothing compared to the fight future generations will be forced into- like, who gets to have kids and how many? So, I think it makes sense to start challenging tradtitional views of private property now before we are forced to later.

Illinois has a lack of public hunting land and instituted a hunting lottery. Chances of being drawn to hunt the public land was worse than powerball-not a very appealing prospect. Out of state hunting tabs are hard to come by and ridicoulously expensive. A once in a lifetime deal for most Americans. So relying on the western states isn't an option.

I would like to sea taxes on hunting land leased to hunters and income from per day fees taxed at a higher rate and proceeds from these taxes dedicated to a public land fund. Harvey, I've been giving Rock co hassle lately, but as an example how many hunters in Rock co could safely hunt on the opener on pulic land without hunting ditches? The number is so few it's laughable.

Be safe and curtious and do all your arguing when the hunt is over. Hans.

[hanso612]

After reading my own post it is clear that I desperately need to get outside, I would retract it, but there are some interesting ideas mixed in there that deserve a thread of their own-just not thrown in at the end of post. I'd love to hear what others are doing to expand opportunity and access. So off to look at the eclipse I go, Hans.

[ScoutII]

Where do you park your vehicle? One of the reasons these roads are maintained is for farmers to get their equipment from field to field. If someone parks on a field approach or even along the road you will more than likeley be in the way. Remember someone needs to make some money to pay the taxes to maintain that road. If we do not want to alienate the people that are providing us with an opportunity we need to cummunicate. If you were the farmer trying to get your work done, in the limited amount of time you have in the fall, want to drive your equipment miles out of your way because someone is parked in your way on the road you paid the taxes on to use? Or do you as a hunter when you see the farmer take the time from your hunt to make sure the farmer can easily pass by your vehicle, with no delay? Someone is going to be inconvenienced, how do you think we should handle this situation? People need to know or be TOLD what to do, remember.

[UGUIDE]

 Originally Posted By: hanso612

I need help making an argument on another thread. I want to be sure of the facts before posting. 1. When hunting a WMA can one shoot at a bird that flushes from the WMA but is now in air space over private property. 2. I'm looking for written regulations or statutes or rulings in individual court cases.3 What specifically in the deeds, abstacts, or easments allows ditch hunting in South Dakota but makes it questionable in MN? Thanks for any help. Hans.

Hanso, I'll share my view from a SD landowner and MN, IA, SD, ND hunter perspective.

The sticky deal is the the road right-of-way comes with rights, responsibilities, and legalities for multiple parties. In SD I own right up to the center line of the road but the right ROW also includes maintenance responsibilities and rules/regs imposed by multiple government entities (i.e. G&F, county to name a few.)

When I hunted IA I had no clue about all the polotics and ownership issues around hunting road ditches but I knew it was legal and it was the best reason to hunt in Iowa since there ditches are excellent. In ND is was suprised to learn that you have to have your land posted or anybody can hunt it. Well gues what, if you post your land then that means the ditches cannot be hunted either. That is an interesting twist when "road hunting".

Bottom line is, know your legalities, rights and when in doubt error on the conservative side and always call your local CO or enforcement office and they will give you the black & white version of the law.

My opinion is why this type of topic is so debatabe is the concept that public owns wildlife resources but private landowners own the rights to taking of those resources on their land. The fenceline and the ROW become a natural border battle for landowners and hunters. I'm told that 95% of dirt in any state is privately owned. That tells me that landowners control 95% of acreage where wildflie can be taken. That's alot.