Lead shot banned!!!!

[castmaster]

Steel doesnt kill anywhere near as cleanly as copper plated lead! Not by a long shot. Anyone who shoots steel and wants to be the least bit honest about it knows its true. We have all watched ducks take 2 hits with steel where one with lead would have dropped it like a stone, then lock wings and sail off half a mile or more before going down. There was a priod when I was pretty down on myself for shots I was missing and birds I was wounding. Couldnt comprehend why until I shot some of the other non toxic shot(you know the stuff that costs $3 a shell) and was back to dropping birds cleanly with one shot. Had a lot more doubles instead of using my second, and even 3rd, shot to try and bring down a bird hit with the first one.

How many more birds do you think have been lost due to delayed mortality/not being found because of wounding by steel shot than died because of ingestion of lead?

And to this comment..." Next time you shoot a pheasant, cut open the gizzard, its full of small pebbles."...I have this response. Next time you find a lead BB in a pheasants crop write it down. Do that with everyone you find. Lets see how many you come up with.

[Capt. Don*]

You are absolutely correct, I stopped hunting waterfowl in the US after one hunt in Nebraska the year lead was banned, I missed, I crippled,I couldn't understand why. I still hunted waterfowl in Canada until they banned lead and hit and killed just fine. I am not an OF and even if I were, I have enough shotguns, I like my A-5's and have some that I can shoot steel through, I choose not to because it isn't the same as lead and I hunt to kill, not wound or take multiple shots. South Dakota has not banned lead on public land, just federal land or state waterfowl land. I shoot well over 100 pheasants per year and hunt in several different states, load and shoot copper and nickle plated lead shot. It is more lethal than anything else out there, If I lose three birds a year its alot. What about other small game, grouse, squirrel, rabbit etc. Are rimfire cartridges going to be banned as well? What about some of the upland purists that prefer to shoot expensive double guns, many of these are not compatible w/steel, are they to just quit or destroy the value of some of these guns by modifying them to shoot steel? The hunting community as a whole made the press this season with reports on the lack of new hunters coming into the sport, a lead ban would do nothing but force more hunters to leave or not be introduced to the sport as we know it. I for one know MN would not be on my license list for the fall if this happens. With the DNR trying to grow and manage a larger pheasant population and compete with surrounding states for nonresident hunting revenue, if this lead ban is truely a coming proposal, surrounding states have nothing to worry about from MN.

[BLACKJACK]

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, a lead ban would do nothing but force more hunters to leave or not be introduced to the sport as we know it.

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A couple of you had said this, sounds like you're grasping at straws to me - why would a lead ban cause people to stop hunting or inhibit new hunters from starting????

If MN bans lead, its only a matter of time before other states follow, so saying you won't hunt in MN won't be a a 'solution' either.

[BLACKJACK]

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Steel doesnt kill anywhere near as cleanly as copper plated lead!

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Next time you find a lead BB in a pheasants crop write it down. Do that with everyone you find. Lets see how many you come up with.

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Its not just pheasants, its all birds. Thats what they do all day long, is peck and scratch at the ground. Those lead pellets WILL be found by birds.

I won't argue that steel kills better than lead but isn't it the goal of all hunting to have a clean, humane kill?? Don't take that 450 yard shot with a rifle when its only sighted in at 200 yards. Don't that 60 yard shot at ducks, wait until they're coming right over your decoys. Don't take that 60 yard shot at pheasants! Nobody likes seeing them flying away with one leg dangling!!

I used to like plain 4 lead, not even copper plated, for late season pheasants, it had good wing breaking power. Since the lead ban on waterfowl, I found it easier to shoot all steel rather than swapping back and forth, and since the ban I've shot LOTS AND LOTS of pheasants with 2 steel. You can sit and whine about a ban or you can practice with some steel, shoot some cardboard to see what the effective range is, then you can go hunting and enjoy the great outdoors. To me, thats all a gun and its shells are, a tool that I use while enjoying the great outdoors.

[CodyDawg]

Go take a look at the Recent Rooster Reports thread, it is full of reports of birds getting up wild. I was gonna copy them and post them here, but there was too many. There are also some reports of close-in success. The number of pheasant hunters is in direct proportion to the number of pheasants in any given year. So if we make it that much harder to have success, our hunter numbers will go down. Pure and simple. And remember, this is a phenomenal year, what happens when we get a merely average year or a bad year? Success rates and hunters numbers will plummet.

I would really like for them to do the science and determine if this is a real or perceived problem. I highly suspect the latter. But let's get a BLINDLY FUNDED study or three to look into it.

I do like the idea of looking for lead shot in the gizzards, I will be doing that.

By the way, science tells us that lead shot is better for killing roosters. Look no further than E= 1/2 mV^2. Because the m is more in lead than steel, there is more energy which equates to killing power. I, too, have anecdotal evidence of the 40 or so birds per year that I shoot that lead is better, which coincides with the science part.

[castmaster]

Blackjack,

My experiences with steel is shooting ducks and geese over decoys. Not taking 60 yd shots, but birds right in your face. And like I said once I tried a couple of the "other" non toxic shot I found I was right back to clean one shot kills, instead of what I was experiencing with steel.

You mean to tell me you have had NO experiences where you feel a bird was wounded and flew off having been hit with steel that would have dropped with lead.

STEEL SUCKS!!! Why do you think guys are willing to fork over upwards of $2 or $3 A SHELL to have a quality alternative to shooting that junk?

Does anyone one here no of even ONE person who has said, "Man I wish they'd have banned lead sooner, this steel shot is the best thing since sliced bread" because I know of NO ONE WHO LIKES IT!

[SDbowhunter]

I dont have much of an issue with the banning of lead. I hunt rooster alot on state, federal, and walk-in areas. You can use lead on walk-ins but most of the time i just use steel to make it easier. If I am hunting private ground I use lead almost exclusively. For the whole price argument I spend more money on a box of federal copper plated #5s then the Estate #2 I shoot. As far as banning lead and trap shooting that does bother me. Either way it wont stop me from hunting or shooting.

[Saw557]

Finally we've lit a fire on the subjuect. I still find it amazing that people are bragging up the killing power of "#2 Steel" Take a look a reloading chart and compare the number of pellets in a 1-1/8 oz load 99 #2 194 #4 251 #5 336 #6 it doesn't take a rocket scientest to figure out which load is going to result in more birds on the ground and fewer cripples in air. Another little bit of info to consider is each gauge of shotgun has a limit as to the size of shot it can effectively pattern now if you go to #2 steel....everyones favorite you are pretty much limiting yourself to 12 ga only fine and dandy for most hunters but you say steel won't cause a lose of hunters how many new hunters....woman and children are going to grab a 12 ga and head out maybe a lot but there will also be alot of them that do it once because of the recoil you don't start out with a cannon. And as far as comparing copper plated lead to Estate steel you are comparing a premimum load with a botttom of the barrel promo load.I don't buy the supply and demand story of how steel will come down in price once lead is banned either I think it could be just the opposite now you have no real alternatives and the manufacutres can do what they want with prices just look at the price of oil and gas. I really thing the lead ban is knee jerk reaction at the best and maybe a under the table ploy to limit hunting at the worst. I really think people should step back and look at all the angles any time something is being banned not just lead shot.

[gonefishin11]

I shot 3" #2 Steel out of a 20 ga for my first 3 years of hunting. I shot alot of birds with it and never had a problem. That was with a youth model gun as well. It is now my backup gun so I always have some 2 shot steel on hand for it. Sorry to blow up your women and children not being able to hunt with a 20 ga argument.

[Saw557]

That may be the case with your 3"20 ga but Its alot like pouring marbles down your barrel sure it may work some of the time but so does a slingshot and rocks. #2 shot is too big for a 20 ga whether its lead or not. We can beat this dog to death and we'll never agree just remember when lead is gone it ain't coming back.

[SDbowhunter]

The estates maybe bottom of the barrel in your opinion but nothing else seems to pattern as well or limit my jams. What works well with one gun may not work with another. I can out shoot most of the non south dakotans i hunt with my bottom of barrel steel and their lead. I saw that this last weekend. I picked up a 4 boxes of top of the line Kents and 1 out of every 5 shells jammed and I couldnt hit the broad side of a barn (this could have been due to an improper lead). But when I put the estates back in my gun I was on fire knocking down birds left and right. I wont disagree that lead is a better shot. I've just come to accept the fact that you better enjoy it cause its probably going to be banned.

[fishroger]

my buddy uses a 20 gauge double with #2 steel in so. Dak. He routinely out shoots the 12 gauges. #2 too big for a 20, dont think so. Probably has something to do with your marksmanship. You can wound a pheasant easier with #6 shot than #2 shot.

[castmaster]

Do a search for ballistics data on lead shot vs. steel shot. The numbers don't lie!

And yes, birds can and will be killed with steel shot. I killed plenty of rabbits and squirrels as a kid with a pellet gun too, doesn't mean its the best choice for hunting either species!

[Baerfisher]

All,

It is as simple as this, practice and know your equipment and its capabilities. Regargless if it is steel or lead my LIMIT on anything flying is 35-40 yard shots and in a hunting situation that is a lot further than many realize. I consider myself a better than average shot and have no problem KILLING a bird with steel at that range. One comment was about the smaller gauge (16 & 20) guns and young hunters not being as effective. Isn't it our responsibility as teachers and mentors to school them on the limitations of the equipment and encourage ethical hunting over just going out and shooting to kill. We should be the ones making the "take-em" call at the correct range, and if they question why a bird was let pass, we need to stress the fact that the gun and/or shell combination and skill level combined did not lend to an ethical shot. They will have more fun when one or two birds are ethically shot and in hand rather than having to go looking for a bird for a half hour and not finding it and having their confidence in their abilities shaken. So regaurdless of you view (lead or steel) practice with the one you view is correct, become well acuanted with the capabilities of your equipment and you will not be dissapointed in any hunt! Limits are not what this sport is about, it is the outdoors!

[castmaster]

Just out of curiosity how many in this thread hunted ducks and geese prior to the lead shot ban for waterfowl hunting?

[castmaster]

"It is as simple as this, practice and know your equipment and its capabilities."

It will be going on 20 years since the lead ban for Waterfowl hunting(1991) so I think maybe I've done a bit of practicing in that time. Again, NEVER said birds wont be killed shooting steel, believe me I've killed my share of ducks and geese in the past 16 years. You will see more wounded and crippled birds and more birds lost I guarantee you that. I've hunted with both lead and steel, and having switched the past couple seasons to the bismuth and tungsten shot I can tell you...STEEL SUCKS!!

And as I have said, my experiences with steel are shooting ducks and geese over decoys, shots are at far closer range than 35-40 yards. I have watched ducks literally blown back in the air, miss a beat of their wings and try flying away. Often times your 2nd and possibly 3rd shots are spent at birds hit with the first so as not to let a wounded bird get away. Once I switched to the newer non steel non toxic shot I am back to making clean one shot kills. So did my shooting somehow coincidentally go bad only during the period I was shooting steel shot?

I asked this before but maybe it got lost in he mix, so I'll ask again. Has any of you ever heard ANYONE say they wish lead had been banned earlier because they LOVE shooting steel shot?

[sparcebag]

castm: I hunted ducks & geese down by your place since 1958 muskrat lake north of north lake.When there were ducks!! not many geese but you could shoot boxes of rounds all day sun up---sun down.Tried ducks 3 yrs ago and so few birds havent gone again.Of course I lived and hunted in southern california from 1978--1990 TALK ABOUT DUCKS!!!& GEESE!! WOW FACTOR!!

[castmaster]

Sparc,

With the warm falls we've been having huntings been slower around here thats or sure. I hunt North Lke, Muskrat, Mudhen in that area as well as Spring Lake west of Hastings. When we get falls with COLD temps that freezes the small ponds etc and forces birds to the Mississippi to find open water. We just havent had that in quite awhile! 2-3 weeks after the season closes the fields are filled with big northern mallards. Nice to know the birds are still around, but dperessing being a "bird watcher" then to have those birds around during open season. Lots and Lots of geese around though.

One of these years I'm going to get out west to do some duck hunting. I am amazed by the numbers of pintails you guys have out there compared to the Central and Mississippi flyways.

[LABS4ME]

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Just out of curiosity how many in this thread hunted ducks and geese prior to the lead shot ban for waterfowl hunting?

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I'd be one of them. Started hunting ducks in 1979. The newer steel is far and away better than the old steel. I remember those 1st few boxes of steel we shot in the early 80's... WOW were they bad!

All told in a perfect world I'd take lead, but that'll never happen again so I shoot steel and grin. I do like Hevi-shot and used it for a whole season.... it's just the price I hate. For steel I use #3 - 3" earlier in the season and switch to #1 - 3" later in the season.

Good Luck!

Ken

[castmaster]

Labs,

I hear ya on the price deal, but the way I started looking at it is if I'm back to one shot kills instead of using 2 and often times 3 shells to kill a bird it doesn't end up being that much more costly. Plus I feel much better knowing I'm wounding fewer birds. After switching I've noticed my shell consumption is down by more than half and it wasn't because of less birds.

[sparcebag]

You mention Mudhen... can ya get there fron Muskrat Now?? in my day up till the 70s,we had to put in at duchanes go up river and drag through the woods bout 3/4 mi I think 3/4. Well any way I looked at GoogleEarth and small spots between Muskrat and Mudhen that were HARD to drag into are now all open water.Out here by Willmar I've seen my first pintails in minnesota this year,I'm kinda a bird watcher now days also.I live on a slew and can hunt off my dock which I have done 3 yrs ago.Its easy but for shootin 2-3 rounds each morn its not worth the cost of lisence,stamps,

If they created a oldfart lisence and give me a cost break I'd consider gettin a lisence!

[Baerfisher]

I am not saying that by practicing you will hit and kill everything you shoot at because I don't care who you are no one is going to hit every thing they shoot at, regardless if you use lead, steel or, other non toxic. All I know is from when I started hunting and not being big into using and being familiar w/ my equipment, switching between steel, lead and other wise. Once I stuck to a particular set-up or a couple set-ups depending on the quarry and became familiar with that, wounding birds when I hunt has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY. To the tune of three lost birds in the past two years while taking home over 50 each year. So i did not intend to imply that no one practices and put anyone on the defensive and if some of you took it that way I will appologize this time as I was trying to convey my personal experience. Oh and I to have been hunting for the better part of two decades, big deal!

[pheasant maniac]

Well I banned it years ago and think it is a very good idea. It has made me a more patient hunter and a far better shot!