Jump to content
  • GUESTS

    If You  want access  to member only forums on FM, You will need to Sign-in or  Sign-Up now .

    This box will disappear once you are signed in as a member.

Lead shot banned!!!!


mnhunter2

Recommended Posts

I was wondering how many hunters are aware that the mn dnr has on its to do list to work towards the total ban on any lead shot used for hunting small game in the great state of MN, any thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to be against it but this year i have be using 2 shot steel and i have been having real good luck with it .And hardly any bb s to pick out i started hunting alot of federal land where I had to use it and at this point it is all i use. the cost isn,t really that much different the only problem will be with the older guns. The only problem that I have is to find 2 steel in 2 3/4 shot .there is plenty of 3 inch around but I think that it is overkill on roosters 2 shot seems to take out there wings and I have had a couple of headshots but I have a pointer and most of my shots are close.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If their gonna ban it than they should first ban the sale of it!Let hunters have a year or two to expend all their lead shot! Or have a trade in!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've actually started using steel almost exclusively because for me to switch back and forth does seem to affect my ability to hit the target. Although, it might have less to do with the shot and more to do with my ability but with that said, I can't afford to throw other variables into the mix.

On a related note I have a quick question. On second thought, maybe I better just start another thread.

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate steel shot and I keep track of all the roosters I shoot and the wounding rate is way higher for steel.

Let me ask you this, if I offered you $100,000 if you could find a piece of lead shot on my land, would you even bother looking?

How about this, the MPCA has residential lead limits for concentrations in soils. Has any study been done to see how the concentrations in the field compare to this? Save the money on the study, I can tell you they dont. So what proponents of the lead ban are saying is that it is ok to have more lead in the soil your kids play in than in a field somewhere. From a science perspective, it makes no sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use 2 Shot almost exclusively now as well and havn't really noticed a difference between the number I shoot with it or the 5 shot lead. I am indifferent to a ban.

Raymondk, I see 2 3/4" 2 shot all over. They had a bunch at Gander in EP earlier this year. I found it first before I found the 3"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really care either way. The only thing that bums me out is I like to use the full choke later in the year and most say do not shot steel from a full choke. I like to put the mod choke on the top barrel and the full on the bottom as the year goes on. I guess I would just go mod in both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can go either way. I would like to see them ease into it and give people a chance to use up all their lead first. I still like lead for late season roosters, copper plated Federal premiums, # 4 for my 16 ga O/U. Have shot plenty of birds with steel deuces over the years when hunting WPA's. Even bought a couple of boxes of #4 steel, puts down a bird clean out to about 35 yards for me. I still maintain that roosters are easy to bring down, but tough to kill. I think steel would result in a few more cripples when you try a shot maybe beyond your normal limits. Steel will just take a little more discipline in shot selection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Go ahead and roll over let them take away lead shot and the next thing will be lead bullets and how about the guys who shot several thousand rounds of skeet or trap maybe we should just let thwm take our guns and be done with it. I would like to see someone find a lead pellet in the field I would be willing to eat everyone you can find. I see alot of replies on how guys really like #2 steel well figure how many pellets of #2 steel are in a load compared to the number of #5 or 6 shot lead and then you'll figure out why you are either missing or crippling birds do the math.By going to steel shot you are pretty much making smaller gauges like the 16 and 20 ineffective of course you could alway buy other non-toxic shot for $25 a box....not. Sorry for the rant but I really think this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So do you think that MN would ban the sale of lead shot or ban the production of lead shot for use in shotgun shells?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What evidence do you have to support your claims? Have plenty of contacts in DNR and no one has said anything. Or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? Personally dont think theres that much difference. Have had good luck with steel. Wouldn't be the end of the world if they did banned lead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When pheasant hunting, I don't really care. I only get out 5-10 times per year to chase roosters anyway.... For sharptails it's going to suck, as they're a bit more jumpy than roosters, and the shots are farther out. For ruffies it's going to really blow. What am I going to do, shoot a ruffie flying through the aspen stand with #4 steel? Ha! I'm not even going to start thinking about woodcock and dove hunting with steel......

I think the opinions on this are going to vary by where people live. Ruffie, hun, timberdoodle, and sharpie hunters aren't going to like it I'm sure, while rooster hunters aren't going to mind as much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want the report go to the DNR home site and search for the NSAC, Notoxic Shot Advisory Committee, and read it. I dought that they really want much publicity on this intill they have to. The whole idea is not based on any proven studies that it will improve our wildlife populations, instead of trying to make hunting more restricted they should be working on getting dedicated funding passed in MN. I would think that the options for the 20ga and small guns are very limited, performance is reduced and are often used by our young hunters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its a interesting report. But it doesnt mean there banning lead shot. There is quite a cross section of experts on their committee, including industry and wildlife. I think they will have to ban lead in the future. Other states are way ahead of Minnesota on the lead shot issue. As far as the smaller gauge shot guns, my hunting buddy uses a 20 gauge with steel and he routinely out shoots all of us. As it states in the report hunter skill is a point they considered. I think its just a matter of time before they restrict lead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm personally in favor of a lead shot ban. All it takes is one or two lead pellets to kill a bird. All you have to do is watch out the window by your bird feeder, the birds are constantly hopping along the ground picking up seeds and grit/small rocks, they do that all day long out in the fields too. Maybe you and I couldn't find a lead pellet but guaranteed birds will. Next time you shoot a pheasant, cut open the gizzard, its full of small pebbles. All birds require grit to grind their food up.

As far as performance, I've shot a LOT of pheasants with two steel. It knocks them down just fine. Maybe lead would give you a little more distance but there comes a time when maybe we shouldn't be taking those long, long shots, you end up with wounded birds. Who likes to see that rooster flying off with one leg dangling?

I also find it more convenient to shoot all steel, no swapping in and out when you're going from private to public land.

As far as cost goes, its a supply and demand thing, if lead is banned, more steel will be used and the cost will go down. And face it, if you go thru two boxes of shells hunting MN pheasants you've had a darn good year!! Is the extra $2-4 going to hurt that much?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

As far as cost goes, its a supply and demand thing, if lead is banned, more steel will be used and the cost will go down.


ummmmm................I don't think you thought that statement through. If lead is banned steel shot will go up and bird hunting will take one more step towards being a rich man's sport.

I'm against a total ban on lead - I think the current laws are just fine.

FI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the majority of lead shot used say 7.5 and 8 is sold to skeet/trap guys. Those guys on leagues shoot quite a few boxes per year even cases. I usually buy a couple cases and make it out several times a year with the family.

I would think they would be the ones getting up in arms about it.

From what I'm reading for the average hunter it wouldn't make much of a difference in price or effectiveness.

Let's face it we live in MN the state where nothing is allowed. They (MNDNR) are already working on banning lead fishing jigs so it's logical lead shot is next. Subsidies/grants for non-lead manufacturing, exchange programs...etc. They are pouring our money into ads and programs to ban lead. It's just a matter of time before jigs and lead shot are banned.

Even though there has not been a documented loon death in MN (that I heard of anyway) they still use it in they're advertising.

I would like to see scientific proof of upland or tweety bird lead deaths before banning anything instead of just banning it because of an agenda. I think it's a rare case where any birds are ingesting lead shot from hunting in the field and dying because of it. Maybe from a trap/skeet range where there would be a large accumulation of lead shot...then maybe.

As far as prices lowering? I don't see why they would lower prices when they have the consumer cornered. All ammo is getting to the outrageous stage pricing wise with the global demands on metals.

Enlighten me if you know otherwise.

Ferny.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't disagree with you CodyDawg. I'm still not convinced the lead issues is really an issue at all. Even consider an area frequented by duck hunters. Give a guy a penny for every lead bead he can find without the use of detection devices and my guess is he'd get mighty hungry. It doesn't just sit on the surface of the bottom muck and even if it did it would still be waaaaay outnumbered by the grains of sand.

Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

So do you think that MN would ban the sale of lead shot or ban the production of lead shot for use in shotgun shells?


Nope. Lead fishing and hunting equip. will die a slow death, not as quickly as everyone is talking about here.

Think about it: Federal Cartridge in Anoka, Water Gremlin in White Bear Lake....While I agree a user ban is coming, it won't be overnight or anything.

I say 4-10 years away from a user ban. To some that's really fast, to others that's years away. But that's just in a user ban, not a production or sale ban.

My .02

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've read all the posts and I don't think everyone understands the whole point....look to califorina they are trying to ban lead in bullets beacause of the condor Minnesota uses the loon as a poster child until there is real proof that birds/animals are dying from "second hand" lead the whole idea of a ban is knee jerk reaction. As far as the number of "tweety" birds dying from lead ingestion I am pretty sure fluff your house cat accounts for many times the number of songbird deaths then lead does. And for lead being $2-4 a box more if thats all it was maybe I could swallow it but try buying steel shot for 16 or 20 ga. you will pay alot more then $4 a box more for it let alone the decrease in performance. Just for @#!% and giggles take a look at a chart that shows the number of pellets in a load and compare # 6 laead to everyones favortie #2 steel you will be amazed at the differnece now figure out how many cripples you lose because steel doesn't have the down range punch lead does and I would bet you loose more birds from steel cripples then from lead poisning. Like the old saying give an inch and they will take a mile show me the proof. As far as target shooters go I shot over ten cases of shells and thats no where near as much as some guys shoot now if that all had to be steel it would be the death of clay shooting. Yeah the price of lead is high but the price of steel is higher. And if you think banning lead would bring the price of steel down just think about gas and the laws of supply and demand....they got you by the balls.... just roll over and say uncle cus they will slip it to you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote:

As far as target shooters go I shot over ten cases of shells and thats no where near as much as some guys shoot now if that all had to be steel it would be the death of clay shooting.


Over reacting a bit are we?

As others have said the real culprit behind high shell prices is the increased world demand of steel and lead. I could see where trap shooters would be concerned but I think competion between shell manufacturers will keep the prices in line, if for example Federal tries to gouge on steel shells, Remington, Winchester, etc. end up selling more shells because of their lower prices - forcing Federal to lower their prices. I also think that once they can start producing 10 million cases of 8 shot steel vrs 10 thousand cases of 8 shot steel their cost per box will go down and that will be passed onto the consumer because of competition between manufacturers.

When I look the cost of shells vrs the cost all my other hunting expenses - guns, vehicles, gas, food, lodging, dog food, dog vet expenses, land leases, etc, etc, etc, - the cost of shells is pretty small. I bought 10 boxes of 3 inch two shot steel in Sept for $90, I've shot a few ducks, taken two trips to South Dakota, and shot a few roosters here in MN, and I still have a few boxes left. I've had a lot of fun with that $90 but its a drop in the bucket compared with all my other hunting expenses. Nowadays I can't even fill my truck with gas for that $90!!!!

What I'm trying to say is that using higher shot cost to justify not banning lead is bogus, shot costs are a very small portion of hunting expenses, and the small extra cost per box - if there is an increase in cost - won't affect most hunters. Raise your hand if you shot more than 10 boxes of shells this year hunting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I answered the cost issue in my previous post now I'd like to address the reason why issue.

Most people against it keep saying 'but lets see the studies'. They did enough studies on waterfowl to determine that it only took a couple of pellets to kill a duck. They've studied and x-rayed sick and dying condors and found out that its lead bullets from carcasses that are killing them. Lead in paint was banned. Face it, lead is a poison if ingested.

I grew up on a farm watching chickens and ducks, all day long they're scratching in the dirt, looking for food - and grit. In fact they'll die without grit to ingest and help grind up their food. Lock up a chicken with food and water and no grit and they'll eventually die. All birds need grit to survive. Wild birds also need grit to survive. Next time you shoot a pheasant, looks in its crop. Besides corn and other seeds, you'll see little pebbles. These pass into their gizzard which works to grind up their food.

When you're out hunting, do you see birds hopping along the ground or thru the trees? Yes, you see them all over. Are their any places where you don't see any birds? No, whether its upland or wet or forest, some birds inhabit that environment. When you shoot that shotgun with lead pellets, those pellets are going to be lying on top of the ground where some bird can come along and ingest it along their seeds and other grit. If one or two lead pellets can kill a duck, what do you think it will do to a small bird? What do you suppose happens to that dead chickadee? Something else comes along and eats it, maybe that lead shot doesn't kill it but it will make it sick.

Guys keep saying 'go find a lead pellet'. You and I would have a hard time finding one but from my experience watching both domestic and wild birds, they WILL find them because thats what they do all day long, hunt and peck along the ground.

Face it lead is a poison, if you love to see nature and appreciate seeing all live critters, why wouldn't you support a ban on lead shot?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must admit, you present a good argument. What is difficult to understand is why only waterfowl have been the issue and not all birds. In other words, why didn't they just ban lead at the onset? As you stated, birds need the grit and they spend a lot of their time getting it. That's why they are on the roads. You'd think they too would be ingesting lead pellets and such.

Bob

Edit: there is a little difference to be considered too. A lead pellet that drops onto a road or other land surface remains on the surface for a much longer time than one that drops onto the muck bottom of a wetland. Between wave action and the soft bottom I would expect the lead pellet to all but disappear rather quickly whereas the one on the shoulder of a road may stay accessible for years or until the next super hard rain or road work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nothing kills cleaner than copper plated lead!!! Just my opinion, I guess I'll use it til they tell me I can't..not going to loose sleep over the government's grand plan. If it's for the greater good I guess I'll have to comply.. frown.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BobT, I think it is because the lead ban on waterfowl came from the Federal Fish and Game - not the state. Migratory bird act maybe?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boys, get over it.

First of all, it's not just Minnesota. You can't use steel on public land in South Dakota for upland hunting. Page 18 of the regs. I'm pretty sure that applies to ND, Kansas, probably others.

Secondly, look at it as an oppotunity. Go and buy that new shotgun and tell the wife you have to do it because the old one won't work any more.

Most of you sound like the OF's that were comlaining 30 years ago when lead was banned for ducks.

Get over it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason it shows up in waterfowl is people are in the same general area (edge of the water, shooting over the water.) You add up those shots from tons of hunters on less area and you will see more of an impact than upland hunting where shots are usually spread out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets face it guys there are way more people out there that want to ban hunting in general than there are of us hunters and this would just be one more step

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Iam glad somebody sees the problem with banning lead.....its not just banning lead its one step closer to banning hunting. Yeah say I am over reacting if you want but anything that make it more difficult,exspenive to go hunting people will gradually quit so maybe banning lead wont out right ban hunting the end result will be fewer hunters and we all know what that means or do we have to start another thread to explain it to the people who just don't get it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


  • Your Responses - Share & Have Fun :)

    • Brianf.
      I'm not there, so I can't tell exactly what's going on but it looks like a large area of open water developed in the last day with all of the heavy snow on the east side of wake em up Narrows. These two photos are from my Ring Camera facing north towards Niles Point.  You can see what happened with all of snow that fell in the last three days, though the open water could have been wind driven. Hard to say. .  
    • SkunkedAgain
      Black Bay had great ice before but a few spots near rockpiles where there were spots of open water. It looks like the weight of the snow has created a little lake in the middle of the bay.  
    • LakeofthewoodsMN
      On the south end...   Thanks to some cold spring weather, ice fishing continues strong for those still ice fishing.  The bite remains very good.  Most resorts have pulled their fish houses off for the year, however, some still have fish houses out and others are allowing ATV and side by sides.  Check social media or call ahead to your favorite resort for specifics. Reports this week for walleyes and saugers remain excellent.   A nice mix of jumbo perch, pike, eelpout, and an occasional crappie, tullibee or sturgeon being reported by anglers. Jigging one line and using a live minnow on the second line is the way to go.  Green, glow red, pink and gold were good colors this week.     Monster pike are on a tear!  Good number of pike, some reaching over 45 inches long, being caught using tip ups with live suckers or dead bait such as smelt and herring in 8 - 14' of water.   As always, work through a resort or outfitter for ice road conditions.  Safety first always. Fish houses are allowed on the ice through March 31st, the walleye / sauger season goes through April 14th and the pike season never ends. On the Rainy River...  The river is opened up along the Nelson Park boat ramp in Birchdale, the Frontier boat ramp and Vidas boat ramp.  This past week, much of the open water skimmed over with the single digit overnight temps.   Areas of the river have popped open again and with temps getting warmer, things are shaping up for the last stretch through the rest of the spring season, which continues through April 14th.   Very good numbers of walleyes are in the river.  Reports this week, even with fewer anglers, have been good.  When temps warm up and the sun shines, things will fire up again.   Jigs with brightly colored plastics or jigs with a frozen emerald shiner have been the desired bait on the river.  Don't overlook slow trolling crankbaits upstream as well.   Good reports of sturgeon being caught on the river as well.  Sturgeon put the feed bag on in the spring.  The bite has been very good.  Most are using a sturgeon rig with a circle hook loaded with crawlers or crawlers / frozen emerald shiners. Up at the NW Angle...  Ice fishing is winding down up at the Angle.  Walleyes, saugers, and a number of various species in the mix again this week.  The bite is still very good with good numbers of fish.  The one two punch of jigging one line and deadsticking the second line is working well.   Check with Angle resorts on transport options from Young's Bay.  Call ahead for ice road guidelines.  
    • CigarGuy
      With the drifting, kind of hard to tell for sure, but I'm guessing about a foot and still lightly snowing. Cook end!
    • PSU
      How much snow did you get on Vermilion? 
    • Mike89
      lake here refroze too...  started opening again yesterday with the wet snow and wind...  very little ice left today...
    • Hookmaster
      A friend who has a cabin between Alex and Fergus said the lake he's on refroze. He texted me a pic from March 12th when it was open and one from 23rd when it wasn't. 🤯
    • SkunkedAgain
      I don't think that there has been any ice melt in the past few weeks on Vermilion. Things looked like a record and then Mother Nature swept in again.   I'll give my revised guess of April 21st
    • leech~~
      As I get older it's really not just about sending bullets down range.  Some of it's just the workmanship of the gun and the wow factor. The other two guns I have really wanted which I'll never have now because of their price, is a 8mm Jap Nambu and 9mm German Luger.   Just thought they always looked cool!  
    • jim curlee
      I had a guy hit me with a lightly used 1969 BAR, he wanted $1650 with an older Leupold scope. More than I think they are worth, I made an offer, he declined end of story.   You know if you look at the old brochures, a grade II BAR sold for $250 in the late 60s, $1650 would be a good return on your investment.    Why would anybody want a 50 year old gun, they are heavy, have wood stocks, and blued metal.  I guess mainly to keep their gun safes glued to the floor. lol   You can probably buy a stainless rifle that you never have to clean, with a synthetic stock you never have to refinish, is as light as a feather, and for half as much money, perfect.   I'm too old for a youth gun, although I've shrunk enough that it would probably fit. lol   No Ruger 10/44s.   Jim      
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.