Adults abusing youth tags

[lawdog]

I don't think anyone I know would shoot a deer to fill their kid's tag, that's lame. I do have one question though when I read this. Does it say somewhere that youth licenses are excluded from our otherwise liberal party hunting and cross tagging scheme here? That's news to me. Like I said, I wouldn't do it, so I never even thought to look but is it really illegal?

[Hammer Handle]

Well, it doesn't effect me either way. My area is in the extensive harvesting area and we have no doe permits.

I am just stating what worked for me. As a youth, I had to draw a doe permit like everyone else. Doing so helped the deer number get to where they are now (along with mild winters and CRP).

Of course, I would rather see the youth get a deer rather than me. But, they need to learn what hunting is about too. Comparing it to fishing is totally different. If your kid catches a 15 pound muskie, will you keep it or release it? You can't catch and release in hunting.

I am merely stating the way that worked for me. Period.

[Augusta]

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I think it boils down to some feel their chance of drawing a doe permit will be less if youth are given a doe tag.

I see that same attitude toward the Youth Duck Hunt.

Same attitude toward the Youth Turkey Hunt.

Same attitude that Dads only take their kids fishing so they can have an extra line.

Give me all the excuses in the world to make your point.

I'll listen but I ain't buyin.

Lets look at Archery, they can take a buck or doe. Why is that? Because its more difficult to take a deer by arrow then it is by rifle. Thats OK but kids shouldn't get that advantage because "theres more to hunting then Killing".

Question, when you take a kid new to fishing do you take them where they'll have the best chance to catch fish? Or do you believe they need to be patient and go without. After all its not about catching fish, right?

My earlier post was to paint a picture of what my son is like and what many other youngsters are like.

You don't know them from Adam but you need to know they aren't just someones snot nosed, spoiled, brats.

That all dads don't drag their kid into the woods so they can shoot a Doe on the kids tag.

That, if this is a problem it isn't created by youth.

The number one violation is baiting. Tell me how you'd fix that. I'll bet your solution will not effect you in any way.

Why is that?

I see to many topics with folks wanting to tailor the regs to their benefit, giving absolutely no second thought to any other group that will be effected. Why it that?

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Well said Surface, just simply well said....Is this where I'm supposed to clap???

[96trigger]

It doesn't affect me either, I hunt intensive and managed areas, but like I said earlier, when I was a youth, we didn't have a special youth hunts or even youth permits and 3B was lottery area. Funny how now its mostly intesive harvest and management areas. Maybe making us wait to see a deer was good for the population.

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Question, when you take a kid new to fishing do you take them where they'll have the best chance to catch fish? Or do you believe they need to be patient and go without. After all its not about catching fish, right?

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As for that statement, I'm not buying it. If I want a kid to be able to harvest something, I'll take him squirrel hunting, or rabbit hunting, or panfishing or bass fishing. I won't take a kid new to fishing out for muskies or finicky walleyes or trophy northerns.

I don't believe that shooting deer should be as easy as catching sunfish. I am simply commenting on a problem that must be big enough to get some media attention. I would give up my tag for my son to shoot a doe if needed, I have shot lots of deer. If this was the norm in that zone, it wouldn't be getting media attention.

As for baiting, your right baiting is a problem, but it's easier to call in the tip line about baiting than about a party's hunting practices.

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I see to many topics with folks wanting to tailor the regs to their benefit, giving absolutely no second thought to any other group that will be effected. Why it that?

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I also think that while you might have a point, the ones with the most to lose will talk the loudest, thats a very broad statement given that you have no idea what zones some of the people commenting are hunting in.

[Black_Bay]

Let's review the topic here since this thread has gotten off track. The DNR has good reason to suspect that adults are illegally shooting antlerless deer and using youth tags on them. This has the DNR rethinking it's regs in zone 4. Cornicelli said "He added that the practice makes it difficult for the DNR to accurately manage the herd in areas where the antlerless kill is limited. "We may have to go to bucks-only if it continues in some of those areas, he said."

The issue isn't whether youth hunters should or shouldn't be allowed to take antlerless deer. The issue is adults doing something illegal and the ramifications will effect everyone who hunts in those areas.

[1runhotshot]

I talked to a upper level DNR dude, he said "if the current success rate for zone 4 continues on the youth hunters license they are going to make drastic changes next year" (in some areas) How does bucks only and NO doe sound? That goes for archery, firearm or muzzleloader. I WOULD LOVE IT! If there are no does, they cannot create buck fawns. He said "The problem is that puts alot of pressure on the bucks" My response, " Does not matter every buck that has antlers get shot anyways" I'm sure many people will have a problem with this but if there was not cheating out there it would not be an issue!

[Hammer Handle]

Exactly. If the deer population is hurting...something has to change. People are going to have to "suffer". Deer are going to have to be spared...mainly does.

If the success rate is too high for new hunters, whether the adults are shooting them or not, it is going to have to change.

It is important to encourage the youth to enjoy the outdoors, but we have to do what we can to protect the outdoors too.

Like I said, I am not tailoring the rules to fit me...I am stating what has worked in the past for my area and many others. We all have to look at the big picture, not what is good for just us.

I am not totally against the youth hunt (although it seems we have to do more to encourage youth to get away from video games these days), but I am for doing all we can to maintaining a good deer population in MN.

[Surface Tension]

If the herd is in that bad a shape in a particular zone that a Bucks Only harvest across the board is needed for a rebound then so be it. I don't think anyone is arguing that. Its a solution that all hunters in that area will bare, not just the youth.

[96trigger]

Agreed on all of the above. I trust the DNR and that they know what they are doing. Parts of the state are very successful. Others need more management.

[skunk-ape]

Exactly, that's what this thread is all about. It's too bad we got to this point in Zone 4 but here we are. Restrictions already have been instituted on the all-season license and antlerless permits have been cut dramatically.

If it takes ending the special youth privileges then I'm all for it and I shouldn't be considered a youth penalizer because of it. I've deer hunted Zone 4 my whole life and have seen firsthand the drop in deer populations. Despite ideal winter conditions and more habitat via government set-aside programs deer pops. are way down from historic levels.

People aren't seeing deer like they used to and just seeing deer is what alot of people, especially youth, judge the quality of their hunt by.

For the most part, the DNR does a good job of ensuring a quality hunt for EVERYONE and I trust their decision making on this matter.

[shogun]

I do not trust the MN DNR and their decisions. They have screwed up fishing and hunting in this state.

Edit: They could learn a lot from the Wisconsin DNR.

[Tripleplay]

I've had my two kids on youth tags the last three seasons, I can tell you that each deer registered on their youth tag through those years was shot but that youth. In our area we were previously Intensive harvest and this year moved to a Managed Area and those extra tags were for the party to fill as needed but each youth knew they had one tag for sure that only they could fill. This year we had 4 youth tags counting a neighbor boy and all four of the deer our party tagged were shot by the youth in the group.

I hate to see all youth penalized because of the actions of a few (maybe a whole lot more than a few based upon those success rates quoted early in this sting of comments). My kids know that those tags are for them alone to fill and I think it makes it easier for them to relax and not rush the shot, etc.. In fact, it has now been two seasons since I've tagged a deer myself as I like others mentioned allow the kids to take the shots and then I might be ready for cleanup. This year I didn't even pull the trigger until the last 30 minutes of hunting when we were taking stands down and two of the youth shot a doe running across the field---I shot to try to finish the deer off and as it turned out the kids had done the job but the deer didn't quite know it was dead yet!

I get more enjoyment out of teaching my kids patience, the importance of taking a good clean shot and the pain of a miss every now and then more than needing to kill a deer myself. I certainly can see some of the other points of view but to be a parent and see their face after it has all come together for your son or daughter is worth more than a bit of venison in the freezer.

[LABS4ME]

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I do not trust the MN DNR and their decisions. They have screwed up fishing and hunting in this state.

Edit: They could learn a lot from the Wisconsin DNR.

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You mean like an artificially high deer population and "earn-a-buck" and the ability to shoot more than 1 buck a year....? that kind of management?

I also like the fishing this state has to offer... sounds like you need to change zip codes.

I think our DNR has a thankless job that no matter what they do will only appease 50% of the sportsman on any issue. For the most part I think they've done a pretty good job.

Good Luck!

Ken

[shogun]

Fishing is nothing like it was 20-30 years ago. Nowadays people catch a couple 10-15" dink walleyes and call that good fishing? give me a break! When I was growing up, we threw everything back that was under 2 lbs. Kept the 3-5 lbers for eating. You could actually catch a limit of 3 lb walleyes then. Now you can hardly come across a walleye that's 3 lbs because people are fishing them out before they can even get 15". 15" a good eater? give me break - the 15" good eater story is a conspiracy to make people feel better about the dinky *** fish they catch so they will be happy with the way the DNR doesn't manage the MN fishing.

Ever been fishing in Canada? We could easily have fishing just as good if MN would adopt the same tighter regulations and stiffer penalties.

[Jameson]

So, what are the suggestions to stop adults from abusing youth tags? Put out flyers, and try and inform evil-doers that they are not helping the youth become hunters. I just don't see it working. As I said in a previous post. Where the deer herd is too low, and the youth tags have been abused, the DNR should entirely close deer hunting in that area for a season. This will be a big wake-up call to everyone. Maybe before some people looked the other way when they saw a youth tag being abused. After they had a hunting season taking away, I bet they change. This would likely affect me, too. I hunted all six days of 4A and 4B seasons in a lottery area, and will be hunting in a lottery area more during ML season.

If the DNR's reaction to this is to only change some areas to buck-only, is it going to change much? The people who were abusing youth tags would then likely still shoot the anterless deer, only then not tag them at all!

[Hammer Handle]

The problem with MN fishing is NOT the DNR. It is because the lakes have been over-fished. Comparing MN to Canada? Not even fair. Far far less fishing compared to MN for many many years. This state has been over-fished for years, and now we are seeing the results.

As far as making it illegal to shoot does and people still doing it...it will happen. But, they risk getting caught. It was "legal" for them now, now it will be illegal. Just because some people will "do it anyway" doesn't mean it can't be imposed.

Just like speeding. People will do it anyway, but they risk getting caught and fined. If there was no speed limit, it would be much worse.

I don't know how bad the population is in that area, but from what I hear something needs to be done.

[LABS4ME]

You hit the nail on the head HH. Canada has much less pressure on it's waters than either MN or WI where the pressure on the lakes and fisheries is amazing.

The point of youth tags and any "youth hunt" is interesting and as posted here, may vary depending on how it affects you... (or 'YOUR' youth). My son is constantly being exposed to my outdoor traditions and I honestly do not feel compelled that "youth hunts" or tags are needed. He will choose to follow in my footsteps (or not... yeah right) and pursuits not because of a special tag or hunt, but rather he will gain the knowledge and respect for the quarry we choose to pursue, in spite of them.

I came form a non-hunting family from Chicago. When we moved to MN, I was intrigued with all my school mates stories of hunting. I self taught myself in the ways of the woods, marshes, fields and lakes. It's because of a kindled sprk that became a burning passion. I never had a youth hunt or tag or special privledge during that time. It taught me more how important it was to learn everything about the game I pursued and how to become successful. Success is important and at times it is needed to fan a flame, but I do believe we as a society use all the "youth" special privledges to excess.

How about giving them a special "youth waterfowl day" or a "guaranteed doe tag" in the fall of the year they complete their gun safety. It is a reward for fulfilling that requirement and a foothold to get them off to a start. I don't believe 5 years of 'special privledges' is needed to insure the next generation of hunters is formed. If they are included in your plans to go hunting, they will love every minute of it and will generally take the path of 'outdoorsman'.

Good Luck!

Ken

[candiru]

The deer population in zone 4 has been going down since the all-season license appeared. Maybe the all-season should not be valid for zone 4 or only for part of the season like in zone 3. With that license, the party hunting all through the season, and grandma(who hadn't bought a deer license in about 5 years)coming out of the woodwork, the herd just cannot take that kind of pressure. I noticed in the conservation officer reports in the back of the weekly outdoor newspaper that a few people were caught(I am sure many more got away with it) putting bonus tags on deer in the lottery area and then trying to register them in a "bonus" area. Putting an end to the all-season or restrictions on it might help solve some of this.

[BobT]

Don't want to keep this off topic but...

Where we fish in Canada their restrictions support keeping the 15" dinky walleyes as you put it. All walleyes between 17" and 21" MUST be released and we are allowed only 1 fish over the 21" mark and we don't keep any of those. In other words we are basically required both by law and our habits to keep fish that are smaller than 17".

Besides that, the area we frequent is one of the most popular fishing holes in Ontario - Lac Seul Reservoir. We rarely have to share a fishing hole with another party. Granted, it is a large system but we don't really see too many boats out there. Unlike around here where you can literally walk from bow to bow some days.

Bob

[kaz2611]

I hunted zone 4 all 6 days of slug season with family. The area I hunt the deer numbers are down I'm sure but the number of coyotes is up. COINCIDENCE! When I first hunted deer 28 yrs ago I hunted with aunts uncles and cousins along with my parents we would have a party of around 15 and each year we seemed to be near filling our tags if we didnt about 15 yrs ago I started hunting another area still in zone 4 but with my sister and her family we have had sucess each year but we have less hunters in our party and we have a thicker area to hunt this year we only got 2 for 6 i shot a buck the second weekend while my nephew in his first year of hunting shot a doe the first weekend he has an all season license therefore he didnt have to tag it and his older brother who had the only doe permit of the party tagged it. I think its great that we introduce youth to the sports of hunting and fishing not only for the taking of game but too learn about nature and the enviroment.

I dont really have a problem with a parent having their child tag a deer that they shot or another adult of their party shot as long as the child is out hunting but I do think they ethically deserve a chance to shoot their own the first day or 3/4ths of the season.

But I dont condone anyone shooting a deer and using someone elses tag that hasnt or isnt out hunting with the party (this has been happening for years ) and probably wont stop until hefty fines are implemented on those abusing the ability to party hunt.

[Hammer Handle]

But, party hunting does not apply to youth doe tags...does it? If they are doing that, that is illegal. That's where the issue is....

It doesn't matter if the youth is hunting or not. They can only tag their own doe that they shot.

That is why the DNR is looking into it. They make take the privilege away for all youths as it is being ignored by some. If anyone is allowed to shoot their doe, why not make them draw a doe permit like everyone else?

Coyotes do take some deer, but they have rights to the deer just like everyone else. They can also be hunted too...but they were here before us.

Our land has more coyotes now than I can remember too...but we also have more deer than ever before too.

[BobT]

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But I dont condone anyone shooting a deer and using someone elses tag that hasnt or isnt out hunting with the party (this has been happening for years ) and probably wont stop until hefty fines are implemented on those abusing the ability to party hunt.

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Be careful here. This is not an example of party hunting!!!! This is as illegal as hunting without a license at all. If a group is engaging in this activity they might as well save the cost of buying licenses as THIS IS A FORM OF POACHING!

Bob

[shogun]

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The problem with MN fishing is NOT the DNR. It is because the lakes have been over-fished.

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They wouldn't be overfished if the DNR managed them properly. Reduce the posession limit, slot limits on every MN lake - WI does this. 6 walleyes? come on.

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You hit the nail on the head HH. Canada has much less pressure on it's waters than either MN or WI where the pressure on the lakes and fisheries is amazing.

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This depends on where you go. When I did my Canada trip I was also on lac seul, the lake was packed with boats every day (peak season?) - even though, the fishing was incredible because there was a slot limit and limit was 2 a piece and it's enforced. Not to mention, they probably put a lot more money and effort into their fisheries programs and don't lie to the public about fish stocking data.

[kaz2611]

maybe you misunderstood me bob what i meant is example husband buys a license tells the mrs to buy a license mrs dont hunt though the husband shoots a buck fills his wifes tag and he still hunts to fill his tag and he may even have others buy licenses just so he can keep hunting i may have mis worded it by using the analogy of party hunting either way this is illegal and has went on for years

[Royce Aardahl]

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Coyotes do take some deer, but they have rights to the deer just like everyone else. They can also be hunted too...but they were here before us.

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DUDE, animals do not have rights!!

[crazyice]

Not according to PETA!! Not that I agree with PETA... I do, after all, hunt and fish!