Wolves

[Steve Foss]

I used the link and tried to go there and it took me to the main page. Couldn't find the pdf in question.

[Bandit]

I really don't know if I would want to try to stare down a wild animal, I have done this with my dogs, granted, they are not wild, but it may provoke them. It is a challenge that could have a bad outcome. My lab gives in, but my 2 year old shepard goes kind of nuts. But I guess if you are close enough for a stare down with a wolf, it probably does not matter. That wolf would never catch me anyway, it would be slipping in toooooo much poo.

[fishermann222]

http://wildlife.alaska.gov/pubs/techpubs/research_pdfs/techb13_full.pdf

There is the link again. It is a very large pdf so it may take a while to load, let me know if it does not work this time.

I would be much more afraid of black bears down there then wolves.

[tealitup]

I think I posted my experience with 3 wolves this year. Whereas they followed my scent drag to my deer stand. Then one actually put his paws on the second rung of the ladder. I made a move and they just sat and looked at me.

I then ran down the ladder as fast as I could trying to scare them. They did run away as fast as they could.

However, they knew I was there and were not afraid at first. Also, we have had wolves circle our hunting shack smelling and looking for some goodies. This has really only started to happen in the last 2-3 years. Before it was a rare moment to see one.

I loved seeing the wolves in the stand and was not afraid, but it seems they are getting more brave around humans. On the other hand if it was a mountain lion that did that - I know what I would have done

[BobT]

Did someone suggest staring down a predator? I don't believe that is a very wise option either. If memory serves me correctly, the best thing you can do is face them (so your can keep an eye on them as well as not appearing as prey), avoid eye contact, make yourself appear as large as you can, and back away slowly. Avoiding eye contact, at least with dogs, I believe is an act of submission. It may be similar with other predators but I may be wrong.

Bob

EDIT: CORRECTION!!!!! I have done a little digging and the consensus is DO MAKE EYE CONTACT!

Here's generally what I found.

• If the worst happens and you find yourself in a confrontation, your behavior can make the difference between a story you tell your friends and one they tell about you. Convincing an aggressor that you are more than it wants to tackle is the first and biggest step in winning any confrontation.

• Make yourself look as big as possible, stand tall, spread your arms and open your coat.

• Maintain eye contact, speak loudly and firmly and bare your teeth.

• If you can, move uphill or maneuver slowly to get a height advantage. If there's a rock, stump or vehicle handy, get up on it.

• Do not turn your back, even to get uphill. If you do decide to back up, be sure of your footing. Slipping could trigger an attack and poor footing leaves you less able to fight if an attack occurs.

• Do not stoop, squat or bend.

• Do not make quick movements or sudden noises that may trigger an attack.

• Do not run: They run down prey for a living!

If all this fails and you are attacked, your option is limited: Fight back! With the exception of Grizzlies, they most likely intend to eat you! So playing dead isn't going to work. Fight back with everything you have. Use a stick, a club, your hands, your backpack, a fishing pole or your camera. There are no rules!

Finally, in wolf country you are more likely to be struck by lightning or die in a automobile accident than to be killed by a wolf.

[smnduck]

How about a limited season on wolves. Trapping/Hunting along those lines. It might ensure that they have a fear of humans and allow for a limited harvest of one of our resources that could also generate some revenue. I think it would be great to get a chance to hunt one, imagine calling in a 100+lb wolf into a ground blind. I know that some wolf lovers would go balistic over the idea but look at the tag fees as a way to cover the predetation costs the DNR pays out. Just an idea where ideas are shared.

[SDbowhunter]

I agree with Bob's Post while I have never had a wolf encounter I did stare down a rabid dog following that exact advice. My brother and I were riding our bikes and this dog came up and bit the tires of his bike we got away but on our way back we both rode side by side real slow standing up on the pedals. The dog left us alone. Later it bite a neighbor and was tested positive for rabies. I have stared down many viscous dogs and assume a wolf would react the same. But personally I would love to see a wolf in the wild.

[Steve Foss]

I've been reading everything I can get my hands on for 35 years about wolves. They always have fascinated me.

That being said, I don't generally chime in much on wolf threads here on FM because such threads tend to get very opinionated and sometimes pretty harsh. I'm glad to see that hasn't happened with this thread.

When I'm out photographing in the woods around Ely, which is a lot of the time, I carry strong bear-strength pepper spray and a canned air horn. The spray is self evident, and at the International Wolf Center when the wolves get in a fight that looks like it might be too destructive, the staff use the canned air horn to stop them. The sound is so loud it knocks them right down, they say.

I've never had to pull either of them out, and I've spent a goodly bit of time the last two winters in camo trying to call predators in to the screaming rabbit call. Used to hunt them with a gun that way, now I'm doing it with a camera. Fox, coyote, wolf, bobcat, lynx and mountain lion are all in the area here. I've had a LOT more luck hunting fox and coyote that way in the Dakotas than I have trying to call them in here. Don't know why.

Anyway, some might consider me foolish for doing this while unarmed. Sometimes I think it's a bit foolish myself, but I've practiced with pepper spray and the horn to make sure I know how to get them into action fast if they are ever needed.

If I remember the DNR plan for wolf management, a hunting/trapping season is possible but not for several more years. The new DNR guy who was just installed to run the program said it's more likely there'd be a trapping than a hunting season.

fisherman222, thanks for providing the link. I'll give it a read.

[Muthagoose]

Ive posted before about wolves trying to attack my dog in the yard and how when in #'s of strength like to follow trappers.. Nothing makes you realize your being considered than a couple standing in the middle of the trail with others flanking you..

We only have 4 more years till a season can be on wolves.

Ive seen as many as 13 in front of our cabin standing over a deer kill on the ice.. Might impressive/ mighty gruesome watching one hold the doe while the others eat the intestines and hind qtrs while the animal is alive, but thats how nature is.

A couple years ago a researcher was killed in Canada by wolves..

[tealitup]

STFCATFISH,

Have you seen a mountain lion in the wild in Minnesota? Get a picture?

If you ever want some other area to photograph - I have more 120 ac. that is surrounded by national forest (can not access the forest for 10 square miles around the land). Feel free to email me. Its near Fairbanks - Bassett Township.

[slick814]

I sometimes wonder if some of the wolves that folks hear howling, or some of the packs that they're seeing are Coyotes or T-wolves.

I only raise this question, because I know of a roving pack of Coyotes where we hunt in Northern MN, and a lot of folks call them "Brush Wolves".

It's creepy to hear them howling when you're walking in the woods alone, or in the pre-dawn darkness,whatever time, but for the most part, I don't believe that there's been a lot of coyote attacks. Or wolf attacks for that matter.

I don know that a couple followed my brother out to his stand on opener, and he was pretty shaken up by it. They showed no real show of aggression towards him, just followed him as he was walking to his stand, and then circled around for a little while before leaving. He said he could sense them in the dark walking almost beside him, but not quite, and just far enough away that he couldn't see them either. Can't blame him for being a bit shaken, but he also said that he was glad it was the smaller ones, and not the big Timberwolves.

Even with the coyotes running around out there, we still had the best hunting season that my family has had in a long time. 4 hunters, 4 shots, 4 deer. 2 big does, 1 medium doe, and 1 big 10 pointer. So we can't complain too much, and it also proves to me that the coyotes being in the area doesn't necessarily mean that the deer are going to clear out of the area, either.

I still don't like to hear that howl at night, though, especially when they're close enough to hear them yipping while they hunt or play, however. But I'd be more fearful if they were timberwolves and not coyotes. If for no other reason than that's one animal that has always sent a shiver up my spine in the wild. I love to go to the wolf center in Ely and watch them. I miss favorite wolf, Kiana, from the original pack. It was a shame she died the way she did (rare brain disease). They are a beautiful creature to look at, but on the other hand... they are also just about the most perfect predator in North AMerica... as long as I'm not on the menu, I'm cool...

[Steve Foss]

fisherman222, thanks for the link. I printed the report and read it through last night. Excellent insight into wolf behavior, and very definitely worth reading for anyone with an interest in wolves. It's a compilation of 80 case histories of encounters between people and wolves in Canada, Alaska and northern Minnesota. Everything from a simple non-threatening encounter to full-out attacks. Revealing reading indeed!

tealitup, I can't see your e-mail address anywhere. You can shoot me an e-mail anytime and we sure can talk about it. My e-mail is always listed below in my sig. I'm always looking for new places to shoot. I've never yet seen a mountain lion in the wild, so that's one to work for.

[chris63]

Great post,I'm still waiting to see one close up.The only Timber I've ever seen was on the tail of a nice Buck.It was about 100 yards away.As soon as the Wolf noticed me it was gone that fast.They are part of the outdoors more and more it seems like it or not.c63Oh,I have to add my older brothers son had a wolf(Large black)come right under one of the permanent stands I had built a couple of years earier.There is plenty of sign and tracks around (Contact Us Please).c63

[analyzer]

I thought I read something a few years ago, that stated no one had every been killed by wolves in Minnesota. Is that right? I know people have gone missing and never found in the woods, including Noel Daluge (sp?) from my high school, so it seems to me that it is possible it was wolves. If someone was killed by a wolf, isn't it possible, that if you didn't get to them right away, the remains would disappear entirely?

[Steve Foss]

People who love wolves blindy have constantly paraded the claim that there's no written record of a healthy adult wild wolf killing a human being in North America.

That's misleading.

Oral accounts from Eskimo and Native American peoples indicate wolves have killed people here. Those cultures did not have written language, so while the above claim may in fact have been accurate, it doesn't tell the truth, which is that wolves have killed native people in North America.

And a couple years back, a small pack of wolves attacked and killed a man in Saskatchewan. Investigation indicated the wolves probably were habituated to being fed by people, which can lead to agression when they encounter people who don't feed them. The report fisherman222 linked to delivers a lot of information about habituated wolves.

If a pack of wolves killed someone, it would only take a day or so to clean up the area so there's nothing left but some hair and bone and blood on the snow/leaves. That's how long it takes them to take care of a deer, and most people weigh about the same as most deer.

[Muthagoose]

Humans like to feel close, forgetting things are "wild" usually creates a false confidence and thats when "we" drop our guard.

I respect the public education of the wolf center..You dont see them claiming to be "able to" rather they institute a respect...

Unlike both the bear centers which give's a false sense of confidence by hand feeding,humanizing ect...

A wild animal is just that wild. It has no menu,no considerations other than instinct/opportunity..

My first year trapping up here opened my eyes. Seeing wolves flank and consider oh boy.Better yet after extending my foot line I decided to spend a night in the bush seeing just how close they will get to a possible food source consideration can be awakening. Just like any predator/guard dog they sense pheromones ect knowing the second you allow fear to enter, they know.

As for clean up on a kill ask any of the search and rescue "if" misfortune happens usually yotes,crows and fox accelerate this and leave the most sign. You will never hear either of the areas"commercialized" animal attractions being connected to any human remains when found.When actually the top predators are usually the first to dominate any "free meal"...

There's good and bad even in the animal kingdom.

A dominate pack is just that dominate..

I actually like wolves very cool to hear them sounding off.. It reminds me that we are part of a delicate chain that only humans control the destiny of..

Thanks to the boy scout motto "Be Prepared" my 44 is always near...

As for mixing up yotes for wolves not a chance for anyone who has spent time in the timber.Altho considering the multitude of uneducated roaming the wilds its probably right on..

Speaking of yote attacks Ca and Wi have more documented reports of than most care to admit. Along with cougar wolves can and has happened.

Its the damage control of the Orgs/local commerce that buffer what we see and hear.

How many people would think of taking their family into the BWCA "IF" there was ever a confirmed case????

[fishermann222]

ok I have tried to type this post a few times and it just never sounds right, but here we go again.

I think wolves are incredible animals. I have seen them in the wild up here and they are amazing. If close enough and the season was open i would have harvested one. THis year I will be trapping them. They are the ultimate predator.

Minnesota does need a season on wolves, not to help the deer population (the deer population is PLENTY high in my opinion) but to instill the fear of humans into the wolf packs. They need to know humans are a threat. In AK wolves try to avoid people at all costs, because they fear us.

Two GREAT books to read about wolves are WOLVES OF ALSKA and ALASKA'S WOLF MAN Both written by Jim Rearden. If you have not read these books they are AWESOME.

[BobT]

Do you think a wild born wolf is instinctively less fearfull of humans because some of his cousins might be? I don't necessarily agree with that. I believe the wolves that may have learned not to fear us are the ones that don't. Wild born are still born with the instinct to avoid other predators. Hunting them would certainly teach those that encounter us (and survive) to fear us but I doubt they have the intelligence to send out a newletter to the rest of the pack.

Bob

[Big-Al]

Quote:

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Do you think a wild born wolf is instinctively less fearfull of humans because some of his cousins might be?

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No, but his mother and the rest of the pack soon teach him/her that their is no need to be fearful.

I could only stay out of this one so long.

[fishermann222]

BobT you underestimate the abilities of the wolf. Purchase those books I mentioned. Rearden is a VERY VERY well respected author, and presents factual based info based on biologists and trappers from Alaska.

[Bandit]

Quote

Minnesota does need a season on wolves, not to help the deer population (the deer population is PLENTY high in my opinion) but to instill the fear of humans into the wolf packs. They need to know humans are a threat. In AK wolves try to avoid people at all costs, because they fear us.

Exactly!! Could not have said it better. You the man Fishermann222

[Steve Foss]

Quote:

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but I doubt they have the intelligence to send out a newletter to the rest of the pack.

Bob

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Not a newsletter you or I would understand, but they communicate perfectly well with each other.

[BobT]

What you are suggesting would require more intelligence than I believe any animal other than humans have.

I was told that I underestimate their abilities. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps others are over-estimating their abilities and giving them more credit than they deserve? I can agree that a wolf or any animal in captivity or one that is in regular close contact with humans will eventually learn not to fear us but I draw the line that they could actually pass that knowlege on to the rest of their pack without actually exposing the rest of their pack to the environment from which they learned it themselves. In other words, those members of their pack that have not been exposed to humans will remain just as wary as any other wild members and only those that have experienced the exposure will lose some level of respect for us.

This is easily witnessed when you have farm cats. When our cats have kittens and we don't know about it, those kittens are as just about as wary of us as any wild cat. They are not naturally domestic. In fact, I know of one tom in our area that is a product of one of our females but has never had human interraction. To this day he remains as wild as any fox or coyote I've encountered. I only wish he would expose himself long enough for me to get a shot at him because I'd like to remove him. This cat has not had human interraction and so it's natural instinct is to be wary of us and it is.

Bob

[Steve Foss]

Bob, I understand your reluctance to attribute too much intelligence to the wolf. Those who are in contact with wolves on a daily basis, such as trappers, subsistence hunters and biologists, have delivered many accounts testifying to the wolf's ability to communicate in ways we can't share and don't understand.

Using experiences with farm cats to draw conclusions about wolf behavior/intelligence doesn't work.

[fishermann222]

Stf said it well. When trapping wolves you can't even use snowshoes, the pack sees them and sense trouble right away. How do we know they sense trouble? the tracks they leave behind show it. They scatter when they come upon snowshoe trails. Now trappers have changed their ways and no longer use snowshoes, but wolves still fear them. All it takes is one member of the pack who "remembers" to communicate with the rest of the pack when they come upon a set of snowshoe tracks that these are things to avoid and be very cautious around. This is what your talking about in your comment. Now my question to you is, how many wolves have come in contact in some way shape or form with humans? probably EVERY wolf out there. No land is as pristine and untouched as it use to be.

Bob you seem like a very intelligent man, I really think you should purchase those books, heck even add the "Alaska's Wolf Trapping Manual" put out by the ATA. You will quickly learn just how intelligent those wolves are. Again, this is all documented info from biologists and trappers who not only read about wolves but study them and live the life trapping, hunting, and managing them.

Just my opinion, but if you need something extra on your xmas list, put those books on it, you will not be disappointed.

[BobT]

I don’t deny that they are very smart and they can and do learn. This is true of any animal. Just visit a circus or my farm and you can see that. I’ve got kids you know.

One thing that wolves do have to their advantage is that I will agree they are probably more intelligent than the prey they pursue and because they live in packs they are able to pass learned response to their offspring more efficiently such as how they react when they encounter a human. Their hunting tactics and flanking techniques are learned behavior taught to each other. But I draw the line to believe their offspring gain this knowledge without being taught by their parents or the rest of the pack.

Assuming that they could readjust, put any tame circus animal back in the wild and I would be willing to bet that once their offspring grew up they would fear humans just as much as any of their wild friends even though their parents may not. Unless they encounter humans, their mothers would not have opportunity to teach them not to fear or respect humans and they are unable to pass that knowledge along verbally. On the other hand, if they were exposed to humans as they matured and their mother then showed them that we were not something to fear, that might be a different story.

I don’t believe animals are born domesticated. I believe they learn to be domestic. Go into the building where we feed our barn cats and the young ones that haven’t been handled much, if at all, scatter like there’s no tomorrow. As they get older and more exposure to us through regular feeding, and my kids, they slowly come around. Most of them do anyway. Toms are a different story unless they are handled a lot by my kids when they are babies.

When our mares give birth, those foals are not born tame. They avoid us as best they can but because mama is there they quickly settle down enough that we can catch them but that’s about it. The earlier and more often we handle them the tamer they become around humans and it affects their attitude for life. If we wait too long to handle them or don’t give them enough attention, they are forever hesitant around people. Just like how bucks are more wary than does a colt is worse than a filly to tame.

One must remember that unlike wild wolves that may encounter humans on a rare occasion I'm referring to animal species that have been domesticated by humans for untold generations. One would think their wild instincts would have been bred out by now but that is just not the case. Instinct is not a learned response it is part of who they are.

I believe that if the alpha male of a wolf pack had exposure to humans and that taught him how unthreatening or perhaps vulnerable we are he can teach it to the rest of the pack through his behavior. They will follow his lead and thereby learn for themselves that we may not be a serious threat.

In your analogy with the snowshoes, fisherman, you demonstrated how they avoid the snowshoe tracks. This reinforces my claim that they must learn not to fear us. Those wolves were cautious because they were not trained to not fear us. If they were the scent they encountered wouldn't bother them and in fact might even follow the trail looking for a meal.

Bob

[fishermann222]

BobT that is what I have been getting at, learned behavior. THey need to learn to fear humans in Minnesota. Currently they do not fear humans too much, and thats not a good thing. Having a season on them will help them to learn to fear humans.

That is what I have been getting at all along, learned behaivor.

[BobT]

I am enjoying this discussion. I might take your advice fisherman and check out those books you recommend. It might be good reading and who knows, this old dog just might learn something!

It appears that we are on completely opposite sides of the same fence. You believe the wolf already does not fear us but I believe they instinctively do fear us but in some rare situations some have learned not to. Your illustration about the snowshoes supports my belief. Furthermore, in all my encounters with wolves in the wild I have never experienced a wolf that showed aggression or lack of intimidation from me. At least in the area of Northern MN where I frequented, they have not learned to not fear us.

Anyway, as I consider our discussion I can conceive of an agreement with you. As I have already alluded to, I believe that the pack is the reason wolves might be able to “teach” each other about the threat of humanity. They can pass this knowledge through their generations and over time this could make them a more formidable threat as this knowledge is shared by more an more of them but I do not believe it would remain with each of them instinctively. Take them out of the range of human interaction and I believe they would eventually lose that knowledge as their descendents would no longer get taught about us.

Here’s the catch. As we continue to spread out and occupy more of their habitat and vise-versa thanks to the efforts of the DNR, our territories will overlap further and we and they are bound to have more frequent encounters. Similar to my cat feeding example, as a result they could learn to fear or respect us less. Since we have enjoyed relatively few incidents over many generations we have learned to become complacent with regard to the wolf. As a result we fear them probably more than necessary. That is not to say it is a bad thing and they should not be feared or at least respected. We are better to err on the side of caution. At any rate, this would make us both more vulnerable to the each other. Between wolves and humans, we share the top of the food chain in these parts. Eventually, confrontation is inevitable and likely more probable if for nothing other than territorial needs.

I guess this is my way of saying you just might be r…r…r…right.

Bob

[fishermann222]

Quote:

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It appears that we are on completely opposite sides of the same fence. You believe the wolf already does not fear us but I believe they instinctively do fear us but in some rare situations some have learned not to. Your illustration about the snowshoes supports my belief. Furthermore, in all my encounters with wolves in the wild I have never experienced a wolf that showed aggression or lack of intimidation from me. At least in the area of Northern MN where I frequented, they have not learned to not fear us.

Bob

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We agree more than you think. I think they fear us naturally, And they are taught to fear us even more by the pack. I also believe they can be taught to NOT fear us. That is when we have to be careful, wolves that are taught not to fear us because humans are not a threat. Having an open season, instills would be a good word I guess, the fear they already have into them even harder.

hmmm typed this during my rushed lunch hour, does it make sense? I believe I have done a poor job of explaining my point. Doing it between classes just doesn't cut it

[BobT]

I guess it would reinforce the fear of us in those that have learned not to especially if they lived through the encounter. Then they would pass along that to their pack.

Enjoyed our discussion.

Bob