Is the DNR taking the right approach to Deer Management in MN?

[fishin58]

I hunt Grant/Traverse counties, I would say the #'s are down, I do agree with the lottery system right now, I can only see that as a good thing to bring back the herd. However I did like mnfisherman' plan for the all season lic, that would not kill the budget like it does now.

[realtower]

Hammer, "Like lambs to the slaughter" yep thats hunting!

[smnduck]

Kind of like 10' wide shooting lanes cut into the forest and an elevated box stand with a high power rifle. A deer drive is by no means a sure thing.

[realtower]

I agree with the shooting house and lanes but aleast there the deer have a chance. Also if you haven't noticed your on a mostly all archery forum. That means most guys do it the hard way on this site stick and string.

[Hammer Handle]

The people who claim driving deer is not hunting and easy have A) never done it don't have the land (private) to do it

Deer have a much better chance of surviving a drive then a tower with a rifle in it. Why drive then? For the fun and excitement and to get the deer moving if you have limited time to hunt.

And yes, I have made drives for bow hunters too.

Shooting deer on a drive is like shooting a duck in flight. Sitting in the stand is like shooting a duck sitting in the water amongst your decoys. Both are ok, but which is more fun and more of a challenge? And, both are hunting.

[96trigger]

Hammer, we drive deer, its not easy for the drivers, or the sitters to hit them. I'm not ashamed to admit to it, we've been doing it for years, safely and ethically. Most of our shots are within 50 yards and the deer usually drops instantly. We have also let deer go through on drives, and only taken a few mature deer out. For the people saying there are too many does, this is a way to help manage the population, probably why the DNR hasn't and won't eliminate deer drives.

[Eric Wettschreck]

85% of my gun hunting is during a drive. There isn't a darn thing wrong with sitting in a tree and waiting nor is there a darn thing wrong with driving them.

I've shot deer both ways and I've passed on deer both ways.

[PHESNTHNTR]

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not just drive around in pick ups. If you've spent time slug hunting around here you know what I'm talking about.

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Hence the reason my dad chose to muzzle loader hunt, quite a few years ago. Thats they only way I've ever shot deer. We still shoot traditional style guns with round balls.

Anyways on the subject. When we hunt we post in the am for a while and if the deer aren't moving, we need to go find them, like many have said, nothing wrong with sitting or driving. I know if we wouldn't do drives we would not have shot deer some years.

It does scare me to see 10 + people lined up walking across a area trying to get deer up. IMO this is how people get shot.

[Eric Wettschreck]

That's the reason I introduced my daughter to deer hunting via muzzloader. She's all growed up now and gone so I'm back to shooting slugs.

[DeanoB]

interesting topic about the drives. Coming from MT never heard of one till moving here. If I hunt in 348 with the family we sit morning then meet up to see what everyone saw/didn't see, if no one saw any deer moving, we usually go right to the driving. Driving can be a little scary, had a cousin plant a slug in a tree 5 feet from where i was standing one year, always thought i would take one walking. if i hunt my honey hole near home i sit in stand or blind or walk really slow through the woods, but then again honey hole is all by self. to do an effective drive, you need to have a good number of safe good shot hunters. One reason my cousin doesn't hunt with us any more, after almost killing me, he whizzed a hunk of lead 1 corn row away from another cousin the next day, so he has been banned family or not.

[realtower]

Hammer, your theory doesnt work with me. I started out hunting on farms with slug guns doing drives and was almost shot. I learned real quick that to me it was just not sporting. I get the fun of getting together and hunting, I just am no fan of herding the deer to other hunters. I also feel its not safe. Most of the hunters that are shot every year are from deer drives so I just choose not to. Also I own two farms that are bolth managed and I also hunt state land alot and sorry still wouldn't think of it. Also your duck Analogy is ridiculous think of what you said. That a deer drive is harder to get a deer then going one on one with a whitetail on his terms not yours

[brassman]

what do you guys think about a late (middle of December) rifle antlerless hunt? if no one wants one before rifle season why not have one after muzzleloader? This would be limited to areas where it is already intesive harvest and where you haven't filled all of your bonus tags. Just a thought.

[Jameson]

I like the idea of a late season doe hunt, don't like the current early season.

The $30,$60,$90 license options discussed earlier in the thread seems like a good idea.

Really wish BUCK TAGS WOULD BE LOTTERY IN LOTTERY AREAS JUST LIKE DOE TAGS.

I would like to see the Muzzleloader season license included when I buy a regular zone license.

Please no forced antler restrictions. I do it voluntarily, but am fine if others choose not to.

I would think pushing back firearms season back a week would be better. It's Oct. 11th today and I was hunting in a T-shirt. It's supposed to be cold for firearms deer hunting! It would also allow those dominant bucks another week to spread their genes.

Is the DNR taking the right approach to Deer Management in MN? I hope so.

[RiverRunner]

I think for the most part the DNR does a good job. We have a lot of deer in certain areas. Not that there hasn't been some mistakes with giving out too many tags like Western and SW MN. I think QDM is more of a choice than anything, with 500,000 deer hunters a lot of smaller bucks will get shot.

I'm not so sure about point restrictions being a good idea, It definatly would not be a popular idea. Many people only have one or two weekends to hunt deer and they just want to take the first deer that walks by. Which is fine, just getting a deer is trophy to some. Another thing is how would you enfore Point restrictions and what would be the penalty? Earn a buck in areas with a high concentration of deer has the potential to work very well. Like SE MN and Central MN. The number one thing the DNR could do, would be to move the Firearms season two weeks back.

The record book doesn't really lie here is the top 10 states for B & C entries in the last 10 years. The top three states gun seasons take place out of the peak of the rut.

IL (509), IA (507), WI (395), MN (293), MO (244), KY (242), KS (235), OH (199), TX (159), and IN (138

Although some of these states may have better deer habitat and less dense woods than MN The debate could go on for days about this subject, but moving the gun season back two weeks may be the best choice. What do you guys think.

[DLoutdoors]

I'll be honest and say that I didnt read all of the posts, however I think that "earn a buck" is a great idea but too many people wouldn't follow the rule. Getting rid of party hunting would help, but again many won't follow.

I like the fact that in ND you have to apply for buck tags! This to me makes a lot of sense. IF we only got a buck tag every few years, many more bucks would get a chance to reach 3.5 and 4.5 years old.

This past week, I passed on 6 bucks. 3 of which I kinda kick myself for, there were 2 130 class 8 pts. and a 130 class 10 pt. I passed all 3 of these in hopes that next year (they all appeared to be young 2.5 year old) they will be pigs. I pass, and the neighbors shoot.....I think that applying for buck tags would help...give a set number to each area and do a lottery drawing....you'd see results in 2 years! And on the party hunting note, only others with a buck tag can legally shoot "your buck". Same with does.

[Eric Wettschreck]

The problem I see with an "Earn a buck" program, or "Point restrictions" type program is deer will still get shot, but not registered. If that actually happens then those programs did nothing but supply false data. More so with point restrictions.

[B@ssDoctor]

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It's Oct. 11th today and I was hunting in a T-shirt.

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You were also hunting in the wrong month. It's November now!

[Jameson]

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It's Oct. 11th today and I was hunting in a T-shirt.

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You were also hunting in the wrong month. It's November now!

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Sorry, long day. Long week.

[BLACKJACK]

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I still would rather have a deer a year than a big boy every 4.

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I agree with that 100%!!!! One of the dirty little secrets about QDM is that they want you to shoot the doe population down, way down, to get the sex ratios closer but the cost would be less doe permits, where you might not be able to shoot a deer some years.

[chucker34]

I may be beating a dead horse but ditto as well. I know the big boy will come some year but I'm very happy to get a deer every year (if I'm so fortunate). The majority want a deer in the freezer or a deer of some sort and enjoy hunting with friends and family. One of my wife's relatives slammed home with a huge 12 point buck this year but most years he shoots a doe or a little buck. He is beaming from ear to ear about that buck. But he's happy just to be able to get a deer every year and spend time in the field with his family.

There are a lot of people in 417 I know that so far have not got a deer this year and the firearms season runs out end of day Tuesday. Some haven't even seen one much less not had a shot. The numbers are down in many, many areas of the state. I'm more concerned about getting them back up again before I care about antler point restrictions. Putting the cart before the horse if you ask me.

[Hammer Handle]

Well, Realtower...we will just agree to disagree then.

On the deers terms? Do you use scent? A scope? How is that on his terms? If you want to go on his terms, sneek up to him and jump him with a knife.

Drives can be dangerous if not done properly. On a drive, a poster should NEVER shoot into the woods where the drivers are. There are many ways to do drives safely...although I know many hunters that don't know how to do a drive safely and hunters who get so excited when they see that deer...that they don't know what they are doing.

I think my duck comparision was not totally accurate, but was making a point. Another example is pheasant hunting...do you sit in a stand and shoot them when they walk out...or walk the field on a drive with other hunters?

Everyone has their own opinion...and that is fine. Just don't put down other peoples feelings if different from your own. Like it or not, there are many ways to hunt deer...not just your way.

[96trigger]

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One of my wife's relatives slammed home with a huge 12 point buck this year but most years he shoots a doe or a little buck. He is beaming from ear to ear about that buck. But he's happy just to be able to get a deer every year and spend time in the field with his family.

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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Trophys are rare, but we do have them here. If everyone in the party went out and shot a 12 pointer, would it still be a trophy? Will we eventally get looked down upon for shooting big 8's? I think we are doing just fine. I love it when a big buck gets shot and everyone stops for 2 days to get a look at it. It would get old real fast if everyone got one. Don't think so? Then why don't we call all our friends and family and have them drive out to see the really nice doe you just shot?

[bigbucks]

I've read this entire post & can certainly see everybody's points. In regards to the little debate between hammer handle & realtower, I've found realtower's approach to be much more antagonistic. Nothing wrong with the points, just haven't liked the tone.

I grew up doing deer drives & still do them. We do them very safely & with great care in who is where. If we've ever found an even marginally unsafe hunter they've been talked to. If we don't feel they've changed they won't be involved in the driving or if they are it will be posting in some off shoot place where nobody will get close enough for them to be shot accidentally. People learn pretty quick in those scenarios.

I personally would prefer to stand hunt. It's what I do given the choice unless I know the deer are not moving on their own. I've said this before & will say again I think the DNR is doing a great job. I didn't think they really needed to go from intensive to managed in our area, but I think the early harvest stats & party reports I've heard would indicate it was the right move.

I've had no trouble finding deer this year, but I didn't necessarily find the ones I wanted. Most of my hunting bow & gun the last three years has produced a huge number of small buck sightings, much more so than does. Does that mean our area needs Earn-A-Buck? No. Does that mean some other area of the state doesn't? No. Does that mean another area of the state doesn't need a doe or buck lottery? No. The state & it's pressure is very diverse & the herd is going gang busters in one area & 50 miles away it's not very good. Is that really all that surprising? You can look at two farms both farmed by good farmers who know what they're doing. One produces way more crop because they have better land, that's just the way it is.

My gun party basically always does well, except back 25 years ago when there truly were very few deer in our area. Parties very near to us can be very up & down from year to year. Is that because we're better hunters? In some cases, yes I think so, but in some cases it's because our land is better & the deer want to go there when the lead starts flying. If you're hunting one 25 acre pasture with some willows & a couple of small sloughs surrounded by many acres of empty fields, that ground can only hold so many deer. It stands to reason for there to be a lot of deer there, the prime places have to be absolutely overrun with deer. That versus a couple hundred acres of woods & swamp interspersed around fields, which is going to support more deer?

[realtower]

Bigbuck,If I come off with a bad tone its because Im passionate about what I belive. Im my book a small wind drive is fine but when 10-15 guys line up a push a field or woods and shoot every deer that comes out I think that is not hunting. I know some of you have always hunted that way and maybe thats all you know. If I would have stayed in western MN I may have been doing the same. I just believe that safe or not when the excitement is there and it has to happen fast mistakes are made. I love all the ideas and like to see more people then not want change. What I would ask yourself is what are you doing about it? If nothing make your voice herd. Also know that more and more changes are happing higher up in the DNR and alot of them have the same opinion as alot of you. So I think we will see a few of your ideas real soon. Like it or not at least its getting talked about!

[brassman]

This is in response to all of those who are against earn a buck regulations and in general letting small bucks grow up to be bigguns.

When I go out hunting (and this is in an area that holds larger than normal numbers of deer where does out number bucks by a large ratio) Most of the time all I see are does. By my house there are tons and tons of does. When we go out into the woods to deer hunt we regard ourselves as hunters getting venison for the freezer or having a good time with freinds, but to the DNR we are a mass extermination program that keeps the deer herd in check. I can shoot 5 deer annually legally btu I choose not to shoot that many.

I myself have shot 6 does and one spike in my hunting career and take no shame in shooting does and there is no reason anybody else should. To me they taste just the same as a buck. In a low deer density area I can understand letting does walk, but in an area where there are visible browse lines I feel obligated to do my part in the management game, in all we want healthier deer and to some extent more of the them. My problem is when people say they will pass up does to shoot a buck. In this wonderful state they have started a subsidized venison donation program so blast away, do your part in the managment of the does that run rampant across much of this state.

I have heard a few stories from this year where "All I saw were bucks, what am I supposed to do?" First off tell me where your hunting! Joking aside, I am going to question your validity and question your hunting tactics, I would be worried if all your seeing is bucks.

Having an earn a buck program where it is needed. (my zone and area) would help complete two managment goals that are both beneficial to the deer herd. Defining a healthy herd as a herd where there is a steady mix of all age classes of both bucks and does. Also where the buck to doe ratio is near or at 1:1. A close ratio helps intensify the rut creating better luck for hunters. To have to shoot one doe before a buck would help lessen the amount of deer overall.

Less deer means more native browse and better nutrition for all deer increasing both body weight and for bucks, antler size. I have never seen a person complain about their deer's antlers being "Too big". In the end we harvest a deer for it meat anyways, whats wrong with having more of it, and shooting a doe to get it?

My angle has to be that it is rediculous and selfish to not shoot a doe only to shoot a small buck in its place. ( where deer numbers are numerous, that is.) I do not mean to offend anyone but It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that there are too many does around and it will only get worse if we only harvest 250,000 deer a year with a majority of them being bucks that the remaining bucks can fill their void in the breeding department. Only perpetuating the deer numbers. It has been scientifically proven that the only way to downsize deer numbers through hunting is to take a lot of the does out.

[Eric Wettschreck]

This is one of the problems the DNR must face all the time.

Minnesota is a HUGE state. It is so diverse in it's layout and landscape, and that is one the of reasons it's so wonderful. What works well in one zone would be absolutely terrible in another. I don't know about yous guys but I think the regs are confusing enough.

With the exception of a few posts, this has been an interesting debate. A lot of different opinions.

[Coach1310]

96Trigger--I couldn't agree with you more. A trophy is a trophy because "YOU NOT OTHERS THINK IT IS A TROPHY." I don't think a big 12 would be that great, if everyone was shooting big 12's and 14's etc. First and foremost be thankful you have all the great outdoor opportunities you have in this great state. Is there room for improvement?? Sure, but just because you sit in a stand for 3 days and all you see are does doesn't mean the DNR isn't doing a good job. MN is filled with varying types of habitat and terrain and trying to manage it to perfection is impossible. If you feel more does need to be harvested, by all means do so. If you feel small bucks aren't to be shot, don't shoot them. Do as you wish within the law to use our valueable resource in MN. Could things be better?? That all depends on what you define as better or worse..... but I am sure things could be worse for all of us....a lot worse.

[96trigger]

Coach, we could only be one or two really bad winter's away from that. If those spring storms last year would have hit in January and not March, we could have lost a considerable amount of deer. I am thankful every time I go out and see deer, whether they be does or small bucks.

I think that everyone is in agreement with the fact that Minnesota is huge and very diverse and that one plan will not work for the state. We on here, like to see big horns, go and look in the firearm pics thread and you will see some very nice Minnesota deer. I get a little fired up when people try and tell me what a trophy is. I've wanted to shoot a trophy whitetail for years, I never came close in 7 years of hunting 3B (which my family hunts, therefore, so do I), so I took up bow hunting at age 18. I have passed on many small bucks for the last 11 years as I am now 29. I can honestly say that I have only taken one immature buck with my bow since I started. The last 3 years I really got picky and devoted to finding a trophy, passing on what I can only estimate at 50 bucks that weren't wall hangers in my book. Last year I missed a 150+ class buck with my bow. This year I connected on a 168 green score buck 2 days before the firearm season. It took me 11 years, thats one year more than a decade to finally shoot a trophy.

My point is, that I didn't need the DNR to restrict points, or tell me to earn a doe. I just went out and did it. I don't know of too many people that are willing to put in the time, money, and effort that I did. I think that too many people want to walk out their door on opening morning and shoot a boone and crocket. I feel that these are the people that are making the most noise about the DNR not doing there job. I will stand by my original statement ten pages ago, the big bucks are out there, right here in Minnesota, right now, if you want em, GO GET Em. If you dont want to work for it, pay to go hunt a game farm. God knows there were days in my stand when it crossed my mind. But let me tell you, connecting on that 168 was the single most gratifying day of hunting I have ever had, and I have had some great ones.

[archerystud]

Deer management in MN is kind of like planning a company Xmas party, You'll never please everyone.

In my life I've taken what I would call 4 "quality" bucks. Of those 4 one was taken in Missouri and I took two of the others on a property I began hunting about 6 years ago in zone 601.

I grew up in Henderson and still do a majority of my hunting back there. I've hunted around there for 27 years (with both a bow and a gun) and have only taken one quality buck in that area (although I've probably spent about 85% of my hunting time there). I've been passing up bucks for 16 seasons and they just aren't getting much bigger. I typically pass on between 10-25 smaller bucks per year.

I would just like to see some improvment so that I could connect more than once out of every 30 years. To me a quality buck does't have to be Pope & Young (with a bow) but it should be close.

[Coach1310]

96trigger, I completely agree with all you have said. Just wanted to make that clear.

As far as "we could only be one or two winters away from....a lot worse" That may be the case, but there is no way to manage or plan for that. If we reduce permits fearing a harsh winter and get a mild one with little snow, numbers would boom. What I am getting at is the DNR has to manage after they see what kind of hand they have been dealt by hunter harvest and winter kill.

Congrats on your deer. Are there pics on here? Just curious as I love to see the big bucks MN has to offer. I have seen some great bucks since I began hunting, but have been unable to connect on one for the wall yet, but that doesn't mean I think others are to blame or the DNR isn't doing its job. Connecting on a big buck means so many things have to go just right.... it just hasn't been in the cards for me yet, but I'm completely okay with that. Best of luck to you Trigger... I think this topic is about tapped out. I got into a little late, but I think most agree we are lucky to have the opportunities we do.