Copper walking funny

[Dahitman44]

My 1.5 year old pup Copper was walking funny after hunting for about 25 minutes. It was like he was drunk and stumbling.

That was strange. he drank a bunch of water and seemed better. Do you think he pulled a muscle?

Hope it isn't early hip problems.

[JDM]

Check out my thread titled "hip displaysia" and get him to a vet. I really hope everything is fine.

[311Hemi]

Can you explain more of what you mean by walking funny?

Specifically what were you seeing?

[lawdog]

I'd also worry a little about Hypogylcemia if he was wobbly and drunk appearing. My last dog hat hunting dog Hypoglycemia and I had to always monitor him and give him lots of energy/sugar supplements while hunting and then he was fine.

[R. Miller]

hitman,

Was it a fairly warmer day? If he's not in the absolute best hunting shape and charged hard for a while in warmer weather it may have been the onset of heat exhaustion. They don't need to be going all day for that to happen. He probably just overheated. It can be scarry. Just remember, like you said, plenty of water is the key. If you have to on warmer days when the sun is out, even bring a long a bottle of water and a little bowl in your bird pouch. Tablets like Rehydrate also seem to work pretty good for the hunting dogs.

[SportFishin']

Another good thing to have along in the truck when dogs overheat is Rubbbing alcohol. Rub it on their belly & it creates a cooling effect. They usually recover within a few minutes & also have plenty of water with.

I know it is added weight to the game vest but I usually carry 2 16oz squirt bottles of water with me at all times & have trained my pointer to drink from the bottle.

Good Luck,

Chris

[311Hemi]

Quote:

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Another good thing to have along in the truck when dogs overheat is Rubbbing alcohol. Rub it on their belly & it creates a cooling effect. They usually recover within a few minutes & also have plenty of water with.

I know it is added weight to the game vest but I usually carry 2 16oz squirt bottles of water with me at all times & have trained my pointer to drink from the bottle.

Good Luck,

Chris

---

I agree 100%, but I would be cautious and only use it in emergencies when other options are not working. The alcohol can be absorbed into the skin and is toxic to the dog. But it's obviously better to cool the dog in an emergency than the opposite.

[Dahitman44]

It was in his back legs and he was walking kinda like stumbling.

He drank a TON of water in the ditch, so that might have been it.

It was not good to see -- made me nervous and sick to my stomach.

After that he seemed fine and has not acted strange. It waws warmish and windy.

He ate before we left and my not have had much water before we started. Only walked about 30 minutes before he had troubles.

Any other thoughts?

I hope it was just a water thing. he seems fine now -- should I still bring him in?

thanks

Hit

[311Hemi]

I don't see how water would cause any issues like you described. I would read JDM's post title hip dysplasia (it's not about HD though). Could be a few different things mentioned there.

Was the pup running hard or very excited at the time for the whole time in the field?

What did you do to help it? Rest him for a little bit...or it just went away on it's own?

[R. Miller]

hitman,

I'm sure it was the onset of heat exhaustion. Especially if you're saying he didn't have a lot of liquid to start the before the hunt and it was a warmer day.

He'll be fine. No need to bring him in. You should have better luck now that we're starting to get some cooler temps. A few degrees, which doesn't seem like anything to us, can make a world of differnce for your dog. Good luck the rest of the season!

[311Hemi]

Quote:

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hitman,

I'm sure it was the onset of heat exhaustion. Especially if you're saying he didn't have a lot of liquid to start the before the hunt and it was a warmer day.

He'll be fine. No need to bring him in. You should have better luck now that we're starting to get some cooler temps. A few degrees, which doesn't seem like anything to us, can make a world of differnce for your dog. Good luck the rest of the season!

---

I have never seen heat exhaustion that I am aware of, but do you tend to see the back legs start to get wobbly at the onset of it?

Dahit....out of curiosity what lines is your dog out of?

[R. Miller]

I've seen it a couple times and was told that's what it was. I'm not a vet, so I can't explain the reasoning behind it, other then their whole system probably get out of whack, and like hitman said, they start to loose control of their parts and almost seem "drunk." It's nothing to mess with. At that point to better carry the dog to water and do the other steps mentioned in the other post.

[Jackpine Rob]

Another possibility is a seizure, not at all uncommon in larger hunting breeds - including labs. These things can happen for no apparent reason, or can happen during periods of exertion.

My buddy had a lab that developed seizures, and he ended up medicating the dog daily for the remainder of the dog's life (the pooch lived to 15). As the dog got older, he quit hunting the dog in water - fearing a seizure during a water retrieve would be fatal, but it did just fine in the pheasant field.

Hypoglycemia or heat-related problems are the most likely culprits, but keep an eye open for possible seizures - the symptoms aren't as as simple as the dog collapsing and bucking around. Sometimes things are more subtle.

[311Hemi]

OK...was just curious because it fits the description for EIC also and I'm just not sure how many people are actually aware of what it is or what it looks like. You by chance watch the video I posted in JDM's post? Just curious if it at all looked like it.

Through forums I have spoken with multiple lab owners with dogs that have "suspected" EIC. I only say suspected because there is no "official" test out at this point.....but you may be able to have your dog tested in the study at the U of M.

I would really like to know more about the actual symptoms of heat exhaustion. If this staggering explained here is one or if the dog actually gets to that point because of overheating that they would end up collapsing.

The hyperglycemia may be a little more well known disease I think that more are aware of......which is also a possibility as is heat exhaustion.

[duckbuster]

I agree with Hemi on this one. EIC would be my guess, especially with the back leg thing you described.

I am not to good at cutting & pasting but will try to swing the latest update I have on the EIC numbers from the study the 2 girls from the "U" have been doing all summer at the field trials.

[LABS4ME]

M.Mil, I would not never come on a forum and tell someone who had an obvious episode with their dog to NOT got to the vet. There are so many things that this could be, many serious, that not taking the dog to the vet may cause future harm to the dog. I have seen hypoglycemic dogs and know some about EIC... but have never witnessed a full on heat exhaustion or heat stroke dog, but these can be deadly as a dog has little ability to rapidly cool itself. They do not 'bounce' back quickly by just giving them water. Internal damage can happen. It isn't as common in dogs as in humans.

Dahitman, I think you know your answer. Something happened and needs to be checked out. It could be other imbalances in his blood counts. It may cost you $100, but better to know, than to guess. Hypoglycemic events are usually easily turned around, but usually the onset is further out than 25 minutes, and you should rest the dog after he comes back to normal. It could be EIC, but make sure your vet is versed in this disease as it's still a relativley 'new' disorder and many vets have not seen a dog or diagnosed one with it yet.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Dahitman44]

Copper has some great lab lines in him.

[Dahitman44]

Jackpine --

That is creepy -- I hope that is not it.

He has been fine ever since the hunt.

[Dahitman44]

ken --

Do you think i should still bring him in?

[R. Miller]

Sorry Labs and Hitman. I was just speaking from my experience and what seems to be the same symtoms that I saw, and my dog hunted fine w/o problems after that episode. They are healthy dogs. Every case can be different. Didn't mean anything by saying "don't go to the vet." Obviously, if you think it's right, by all means getting it checked would be the smartest thing to do.

[JDM]

The "lines" don't matter at this point. I would bring him to a vet that has experience with both EIC and hypoglycemia. See what they say. I am in the same boat as you right now. Not fun. Call your breeder and see if they are aware of any other pups from the litter. You may also have a health guarantee issue on your hands.

[311Hemi]

The great lines is why I asked. There will be many "great lines" that are "carriers" or "affected" by EIC.

Either way, a trip to the vet should is in order to try to get to the bottom of it. Ken is right that there are different things that could cause this.

I just posted the info because the two VETS the particular dog I am aware went too (normal vet and ER vet) did not suspect EIC and it was tested as "affected" by the U of MN study. The ER vet suspected a seizure (no testing was done).

[LABS4ME]

That is a decision every dog owner has to make. Myself? I guess with a young dog that is in great shape, I wouldn't be expecting this to have happened... I'd be starting an investigation into what is going on. You may not learn anything specific on that visit (but then again, you may), but at least you'll be ruling out some things so if it happens again, you need to look into it further with out starting out with the basic tests then. If it is EIC, you got a whole 'nother road to hoe. Your dog is of the age when it usually first manifests itself and it is predominant in a couple of field trial lines. If it's hypoglycemia, you can talk to the vet how to minimize it from occurring. What you've described should not have turned around from a drink of water.

Good Luck!

Ken

[nine-tiner]

Don't really want to hijack a post but when I did a google on EIC it says that it "runs in the family"...so if eyes, hips, etc can be guaranteed is this something else that needs to be questioned? From an earlier reply it sounds like their are already breeding lines with the trait. How many dogs out there have this without knowing? If the breeder knows does he have to disclose this?

[311Hemi]

Quote:

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Don't really want to hijack a post but when I did a google on EIC it says that it "runs in the family"...so if eyes, hips, etc can be guaranteed is this something else that needs to be questioned? From an earlier reply it sounds like their are already breeding lines with the trait. How many dogs out there have this without knowing? If the breeder knows does he have to disclose this?

---

Yes....it is something that needs to be questioned, however there is no "official" test out for it yet so no one can be 100% sure which dogs are affected (although some have a very good idea of the affected dogs they own). Also, carriers can still be bred to non-carriers, so it will be up to responsible breeders to make sure breedings are done properly.

It is thought there are a large number of FT dogs (and probably labs in general) that are carriers of EIC. Only "affected" dogs show the collapsing episodes related to this disease. It means they have two genes (one from each parent) and are considered affected. Breeding a carrier to a non-carrier will not produce a dog with two gene's.

A breeder does not have have to disclose anything so they would not have to disclose this, however good breeders will test and disclose this.

*********************************

Here's the latest from Katie Minor : Of the first 500 dogs tested for EIC, 30% to 40% came back as carriers and 4% were affected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We collected about 500 labs this summer. About 270 results have gone out so far. I have been sending out results in this rough order: First to those where the owner was present with the dog (to give trainers ample time to let owners know that results would be forthcoming). Secondly, I've tried to get those collected first to the owners soonest. Third, I've been holding results that all belong to the same owner if one or more of their dogs needed to be re-tested (rxn was not strong enough to read).

We have noted quite a high carrier rate so far. For the population we tested between 30-40% (Trials in MN, ND, WI, Canada). We've also received samples from Germany, Australia, and New Zealand. The mutation was present in all these countries.

Katie

That percentage is high, staggeringly so. But considering common breeding practices of using the same sires over and over again, and line breeding, not wholey unexpected. Line breeding can create many affecteds of a recessive trait in a hurry. One carrier sire can produce hundreds of new carriers in a relatively short amount of time. And this mutation has been around a long time. Probably pre-dating the split of the retrieving breeds.

We also found about 4% of the dogs tested were homozygous (two copies) for the mutation. A few of those had never collapsed, which is not unusual. Many diseases do have a percentage of genetically affected individuals who do not express the condition. The majority, we were told had had issues before.

As would be expected, most affected dogs are removed from training when they begin collapsing (usually between age 7 mos and 2 yrs), so you would likely never see these dogs at a field trial. Hopefully they are being placed in great pet homes, because most can lead a fairly normal, happy life outside of the stress of field trials.

[CFD200]

After hunting with my 11 mo. lab on Saturday I would say mine is one of 4% that is affected by EIC. Once in the morning and once in the afternoon she started to lose the hind leg control. I would rest her for about 10 minutes and she was fine. I did all of the suggested things from the Vet to rule out hypoglycemia. Does not sound there is a definite treatment for EIC or a proven test. I am hopeful that it is something that happens less as she calms down later in life. Although I had never intended to field trial her I hope I can continue pheasant hunting with her.

[LABS4ME]

Stress and hunting vs. field trialing are one in the same. It isn't isolated to field trialing. If your dog is showing signs now, she will show them in the future. Have you contacted the breeder? They need to know so they can remove the parents from their breeding programs. You may also want to discuss a possible replacement... You may want to go to the U to get confirmation if it is EIC.

Good Luck!

Ken

[CFD200]

Correct, but I would not be able to rest my dog for 10 minutes during a field trial. I am working on contacting the breeder. My wife has the information as she bought the dog as a Christmas present for the family. Maybe she should have stuck to the breed I had in the past: English Cockers. The only issue I have seen with them is Eyelid Entropy.

[duckbuster]

Hemi: This is what I was going to try to cut & paste tonight. My dog was one of the 500 tested this summer. Hers was done up at the Fargo field trial in August.

Thankfully she came back negative.

Right now to my knowledge there isn't anyone who is including this in a guarantee. Even though a dog comes back positive does not mean they will show signs of the trait.

[Dahitman44]

Thanks, guys.

Called this morning and going to set up an appointment and get a blood draw.

I will let you guys know what I find out.

Thanks

Hit