Guides busted.

[harvey lee]

I think the CO's have a very diffucult job to do. They check people to keep everyone within the law. I guess the reason they have to write all the rules is because so many have found small loopholes to break them. I will not try and decide who is and isnt at fault but I will say that when I leave the lake, my livewell is always empty and I really check for weeds as I in no way want a fine for something like this.

I guess my question might be, how does the CO know who is going for lunch and returning to the same lake and who is going home with livewell water and fish swimming in it?

I guess if one knows that they will be pulling their boat out of the water, they could have a cooler with ice in the truck to place the fish in and drain the livewell so they are within the law. Might work.

I know when I go catfishing that I bring along another cooler to put the unused bullheads in when I'm done for the night so I'm not transporting live bullheads in my livewell with water. I guess its just something one is going to have to continue to do to keep from breaking the law and spreading exotics from lake to lake.

[musky999]

You are right about the back pedaling. I like when Dan steps in and tells the story everybody simmers down and says sorry. Bottom line is they broke the law, you can not transport live fish in a livewell period. For that matter it was an overlimit. I don't care how far you are traveling. They put these laws on the books for a reason, to prevent the spread of exodic species thoughout the state. I am conserned that other people, it sounds like more than I would like, are doing this. Jason, this is not a garbage call by the CO, give me a break, he is doing his job. I hope everyone reading this thread has learned something that they should have already know, don't transport water, live fish, or overlimit of fish down the road. These guides should have know better than that.

Thanks for my 2 cents,

Musky

[Chode2235]

Good call out Musky. It seems that we are perhaps cutting these guys a little too much slack because the reason they broke the rules 'made sense'. Unfortunately we can't deny that they did break the law.

I am just glad that it is far less sinister than the original story led us to believe.

[MNUser]

Right on Musky999. They broke the law, period. Just because Dan stepped in and "explained" the "story" does make it right. Make the clients take the fish, let them go, take the client to lunch with you, there are other options. Draining of the livewell is a no brainer....when you fish 200+ days a year I would think that is an automatic.

Just like in any other activity, those that are making the money and are in the front of the line need to step up and do the right thing. We all need to. The reason we have sooooo many rules and regs is that so many do not police themselves.

[Shack]

The one thing I do not like is when a group of people start a thread that turns into a medieval mob situation!

Everyone starts out with that lets hang him high type posting and things go down hill from their!

It was nice of Dan bringing up his side of the story. Better than someone finding out and having him corn holed down the road.

But in the end who really cares! It really is not our business and it is the DNR just doing their job. There is no written rule that fishing guides are above the average Joe as far as the fishing higher arcky goes! They are not teachers (in a sense). They are real people who screw up like real people. That’s it! That all!

Good luck Dan with your guides! Hoped they learned and I hope DNR does not go over board with them!

This what I wish on any fellow sportsman!

[Sportland_Bait]

I am in no way saying that guides should operate on another set of rules. The guides involved in this situation were ok with the citation for water in the livewell, it was a lapse in judgement. I think we all accept that new rule as it will be something that we need to adjust to. That wasn't the bad call I referred to. The Outdoor News made it out to be an overlimit violation which was simply not the case. That was what I was reffering to. Yes they should have had the livewells drained. I agree with that, but it wasn't an overlimit case.

The question I have about the water law is what about water in a baitwell or minnow bucket. In my boat I always fill the livewell and baitwell with well water before I head out to the lake. I'm guessing that there is no way to seperate what is well water or lake water. I assume that I would need to empty this water before I leave the lake as well. How about minnow buckets, does the same ruling apply to them? I have been aware of the law for a while now but I didn't really understand what all the rules were. Maybe someone in the know could specify.

Jason Erlandson

[JP Z]

tadster,

That is for the CO to decide I guess. But if you have the plug pulled I would think you're fine......or I am in the same boat as you so to speak....

Great Job Stepping up Dan!

[B420]

Guida busted me two years ago ice fishing as we were setting up. A partner and I each set a up a tip up and I was setting up the portable fishhouse and aqua-view. As I am getting set up our friendly CO approaches me to see what is up. I am not even fishing in the house at this point, just sitting in the portable getting everything ready. He then asked where my fishhouse licsense was. I told I was getting set up and would put in the hanger in a second. Well, I ended up getting a for failure to display a fishhouse license ($125) and it was in the front pocket of my carhatt jacket!! He is pathetic to say the least. A warning would have been sufficient but he truly likes to go out of his way to be a jerk. Everyone says how tough a CO job is, give me a break, I wish could drive around all day pretending to do something.

[bhs91]

I think this was a bunk call. Maybe they did "break" the law but is was an honest mistake. By the way CO's have a job that is 10 times more difficult than police. These guys and gals work ridiculous hours and they have a ton of ground to cover. If it is such an easy job then go get that job; a degree in Criminal Justice is avaiable to everyone.

[skies_and_eyes]

I agree with "shackbash" even if they are on the water everyday,doesn't mean they are perfect sportsman 24 hrs a day. I'm sure they try very hard to be, but sometimes a guy forgets a little detail. Every single person makes mistakes, and two guides happened to make them that day, they (and everyone) know better now, so lets be happy with that. Hopefully we can all help stop the spread of nasty things into our wonderful lakes. I also was wondering about the well water issue that Jason brought up, anyone know the regulations for that?

[Team Otter]

This is a tough one. I know for me, at "first glance", it was frustrating and difficult to read. My initial reaction was to make an example of the people who broke the law and end it at that. Although I still feel as though "the law is the law", I don't think there is necessarily a lot of back-pedaling happening but rather it seems to be the nature of this discussion. I know this; it was very professional of Dan to come forward with the whole story and I personally thanked him for clarifying despite maybe "jumping the gun" in some peoples' opinion. Perhaps we should move forward from some of the more critical statements that have been made and bring this back to facts about regulation and law.

[jerk bait]

This a good example of DNR/CO and the editors of the article making something out of nothing. "We caught professional guides blah,blah, blah". The story that B420 wrote about the unposted shelter license shows how some COs especially young or new ones like to pad their ticket count with bogus charges. I have seen it many times over the years. I've had the feeling when some wardens stop you they treat it like your guilty of something, they just have to find out what it is. I have been through many of the game checks where the stop you on the highway. I've witnessed people being harassed and interrogated for the most nit-picky things. I have also had many COs that were courtious and helpful.

[jtm]

As much as I dislike guida, he did the right thing. and I still stand by my 1st reply.

[Chode2235]

As for transporting water in the livewell, whether it be well water or lake water or melted ice cubes, rain, I think this example says not to do it. Why anyone would want to put themselves in a situation to be confronted by COs, who are obviously looking for this type of violation, is beyond me. I would be seeking an immediate alternate solution to minnow transportation.

I don't really think the "but, but... the water was from my well" argument will get anyone very far.

Not to mention it is still possible to transmit invasive species. Such are the times.

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Mn Regs 2007; Page 68; Invasive Species Laws

It is unlawful to; transport water from infested waters...

Page 70; Pelican is listed as an infested water; Zebra Mussels...

So they are required to drain all water from that lake when they leave, including any in livewells, bait containers, or anything else...

Page 11: Transporting Fish;

...may not be transported in a quantity sufficient to keep them alive...(this includes all waters)...exceptions for youngsters transporting for Aquarium from uninfested waters, and fish for Aquariums from Authorized, Licenced,

Sellers...

I don't see anything stating you must drain water from Uninfested Waters, but if required...

Alright, so you bring your minnows to a lake, uninfested or not, straight from the baitshop...now you put them in the boat and at some point mix lake water in...now you are going to leave, so you dump all the water...you brought extra water just for this purpose, and now you dump the minnows in it, and go home...or to another lake...either way if you use the minnows in another body of water, they have been living in the previous body of water for some time...and whatever was in the water that was in your baitwell, is now in the minnows...and who knows what was in some of the Baitstores waters...

I guess we can only use our bait in one body of water and then throw it out...and then again maybe we should be required to drain our baitwell/buckets/containers from Uninfested Waters too...but how many are doing that???

And Yeah, let's ticket everyone who has to dig in their pocket for their License...

[Shack]

Like most everyone on this board, I have been fishing for 20 plus years! I have had a boat for most of that time as well. I will say the DNR have been a little thicker this year, more than years past! But, every year I am checked at least once ice fishing and once summer fishing (this year over 4 times this summer). I have always showed respect to officers and called them maim or sir. I show them the respect I show a police officer. I go threw routine and I am on my way. Give them a smile and shack their hand right away and that goes a long way, but of all things show respect! A little schmoozing 9 times out of 10 will get the CO, to not even look in your boat, but the main thing is to keep your boat in order!

I have never had my boat boarded like a Coast Guard raid in the gulf of Mexico, but I have been boarded on the water. Again, show respect and be up front! Who knows, maybe the CO just had an argument with his or hers spouse and is on the breaking point. The point is not to give them a reason at all to break on you. This has worked for me in past and I have had great interactions with DNR. I can not remember a bad situation in the 50-100 times I have had boat searched, been talked to at launch or have a knock on the door ice fishing. Out of that many times, I have had only one warning given to me out on Mille Laces on three mile. The CO had just issued tickets to another boat and headed over to me. I got a written warning for not have throw able out in open view. It was under console and easy to grab, but not out in plan view. I thanked him for the warning and he was on his way! I keep my throw able out in open view from that day on!

This has worked for me in past and maybe will work for someone else!

Good luck!

[Shack]

Oh ya, on the bait bucket issue I just try to be a good steward of the lakes. Nine times out of ten, bait is discarded after it is used with direct lake water. Minnows are cheap and I will keep them a long time if needed, but as soon as lake water hits inside of bucket, I figure I throw them out anyways.

Even my bullies I throw away!

We are never going to stop an on going epidemic, so all we can do is do our best and hope for the best!

[harvey lee]

I agree with all that you stated Shack.

When I'm catfishing I take along a larger cooler so when I'm done fishing I can empty my livewell and put the left over bait in the cooler until I get home and put them in the tank. I know this takes a little extra effort on my part but I do not have to worry about a CO that interputs the law a little different.

I just dont seem to have any issues this way.

[Hammer Handle]

Laws are laws and rules are rules.

Yes, the guides made a mistake and got caught. As far as over their limit of fish, I am sure they knew they were. They basically thought, like many people do, "What are the chances we will be caught?" They could have asked for the other people's licenses, but didn't for they thought "We won't get checked".

For every person caught, there is probably 100s getting away with it. So, if you ARE caught, you could be made an example of. If you are really someone that should know better, it CAN be worse.

Th COs have a tough job. When caught, everyone crys they did nothing wrong or this didn't know. But, most of the time the truth is...they thought they wouldn't get caught.

[B420]

( Note from Admin, please read forum policy before posting again,Thank-you.)

[Hammer Handle]

Well, if they didn't break the law, Guida would have nothing to say.

Want to avoid a confrontation with him? Obey the law.

If you obey the law and he harasses you? Report him.

[harvey lee]

Here is the law in regards to livewells and baitwells. I hope this helps all understand the law so no one else gets breaks the law.

Any lake water within any live or bait wells within your boat needs to be completely removed prior to leaving the public water access, especially leaving an exotic species lake. All game fish need to be transported dead.

BAIT:In a bait well that is re-circulated with lake water all lake water must be drained. Bait is considered different than game fish. Bait, including minnows, leeches, and worms can be transported alive after leaving a lake even an infested one. Different (non-lake) water needs to be introduced to keep these minnows alive. Again, all game fish need to be transported dead.

As one can see it is still pretty easy to follow the rules. One can drain the livewell or put their fish in a cooler with ice. One can also carry a small container with water and place their bait in it so the bait well water from the lake is out of the boat.

[MuleShack]

I dont want to beat this to death, but i was just wondering how nit picky does it get?

I mean i open the drain valves on my boat and the water empties, but there is always residual water that sits below the drain line.

Now by following the letter of the law, this residue could still carry the invasives etc. Being the boat manufacturer didn't design it to empty totally, is this still a possibility for a ticket?

I mean i thought when i slid the drain valve open that it was good enough, but after hearing how the rules are written i am wondering? It would really sux if one had to go in with a rag and wipe both live wells out removing ALL the water before leaving the ramp.

[harvey lee]

I really dont believe that the DNR would go to that extreme. They are just trying to protect OUR water for us. Its not that hard to drain our livewells is it.

If it wasnt for the DNR watching these problems we would be complaining about that. The majority of our laws are written due to the fact that citizens want these laws inacted to protect our natural resources.

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Harvey, can you tell me where that draining info came from?

It is different than what I quoted from the Regs.

In the Regs I only saw the Draining Rule required for Designated Infested Waters...

If it is DNR Rule, it seems a little wishy, first stating needs to be, instead of must be, then stating, especially leaving an exotic species lake...with the especially in there, it infers that otherwise it may not be required...

There is a lot of unclear or conflicting writing, in the 07 Regs...

Since the Guides were fishing Pelican, and it is listed as infested with Zebra...they were required to empty...

[harvey lee]

I talked to a rep of the DNR and this is what I was told. I'm going to call the DNR today and get the exact wording from St Paul.

Here is more I pulled from the regs in regards to draining.

Drain water from your boat, motor, livewell, and bait containers before leaving the water access. To keep unused bait at spiny water flea- or zebra mussel-infested waters, drain and replace with tap or spring water

[MNUser]

Then, once the water is drained, take out a rag and wipe all the wet surfaces including the sides of the fish, the soles of your shoes......: )

This could go on forever.....

[ikatcher]

now thats funny kind of makes you wonder how much gets transfered by ducks and other waterfowl, especially milfoil. now don't forget to wipe your feet!