Front Office Throws in the Towel (Again)

[Maximum12]

What in the name of all that's holy is the Twins "brain trust" thinking?

First Castillo, now Cirillo. Why not just attach a big white flag to both of the foul poles, or put little notes in the player's fortune cookies saying "we give up!"

No, Cirillo certainly isn't the best player around. But he was steady. And for anyone who watched the game last night & saw Nick "Pop-Fly" Punto come up twice in key situations in the middle innings...Cirillo is a professional, veteran hitter who would have given the Twins a chance to win a ballgame against the Indians last night. Chuck in Casilla's two errors & anyone wonders why Santana & others are steaming at the front office? Those two moves gave away a big game last night.

Anyone remember the Roberto Hernandez trade in the late 90's when the White Sox were still in the race? This smacks of that same surrender-monkey attitude. Now that the vote of no-confidence has arrived from management, I don't expect the morale amongst the players is going to improve.

[harvey lee]

Same story, different year for Mr Ryan.

[PierBridge]

So because Santana is not producing like he has in the last couple years and we MAY not win the division again this year.

It's Ryans fault?

Go Twins I'll pick up the slack for you guys.

Are we really complaining about placing Cirrillo on waivers to make room for Cuddeyer......geeeez!

[harvey lee]

I would like to see Ryan and the twins staff pick up a few players so they could be a real contender this and next season. They wont.

Santana will leave one day just like Garnett as he will also want a championship ring like he deserves. I don't see Ryan or the Twins making a move to get some expierence here. Rookies and minor leaquers is all they will do.

I still watch the Twins and just get frustrated as they just dont have a depth in hitting other than a couple guys. The rest hit 220.

[Maximum12]

Quote:

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So because Santana is not producing like he has in the last couple years and we MAY not win the division again this year.

It's Ryans fault?

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PierBridge, you're either not serious or you haven't been watching any games. Go look at Santana's stats & try again.

I'll give you a hint. 2.99 ERA, 11-9 record. Might have something to do with the hitting.

[maros91]

11-9 with a 2.98 ERA in the AL is dominant. He should have another 2-3 victories if it wasn't for the pathetic offense. We have 4 guys that produce and drive in runs. (Mauer,Cuddy,Morneau, and Hunter)4 out of 9 is not very good. It shows we have no depth at 3B in the minors when Cirillo is waived and we are still playing Punto everyday. I don't know why we didn't get Wiggington or Ensberg when they were on the block. Pohlad needs to open up the wallet.

[PierBridge]

No I wasn't kidding at all.

I knew you guys would take the bait just like the BIG Flathead I caught last night

DOMINANT LOL.

Bill Likes stats... before we get to the stats where are the rest of leagues moves that you guys wanted certainly with 28 or so teams there must have some great pick ups they're so easy you know.

I have no problem with you guys sticking up for Yohan based on what he has done for the Twins in the past.

But your kidding yourself's if you think he's been even remotely as good this year as in the last couple and if he was we would be right in the HUNT and contending for the division again which we still could.

As Bill would likes to say I'll prove to you through numbers that Santana is not remotley close to the pitcher he was the last 2 years and more importantly down the stretch when we need him most, Yohans numbers for the year to date are up across the board PERIOD...his ERA, Walks, home runs allowed already matching the last 2 years totals including getting ripped for a career high 4 in a game recently, Strikeouts, W-L's are all dismal compared to the last couple of years.

And to further my point for someone who was 17-0 at the DOME over the last year with an ERA of under 2 he has been ATROCIUS this year at the Dome 4-6 with an ERA of 3.55 thats a 1.5 more per game for you stat guys, more importantly when we have needed him most the last month his ERA is 4.50.

have ad it blame it on Castillo and Cirrilo ".259 2 HR's" both injured being released.

OH and I'm waiting for the great moves you guys would have done????

[Stratosman]

I agree, Santana is having a great year, but it won't show up in the wins column, the only knock is how many home runs he as allowed....I would rather see Cirillo at the plate than Punto any time...must be a reason they waived him, they must be hot on the Buscher kid. I understand they needed to make room for Cuddy while being able to keep Buscher up as well. Ryan is a great GM, he only can work with the $ ownership gives him.

Small ball only goes so far Carl.

[PierBridge]

Quote:

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I agree, Santana is having a great year, but it won't show up in the wins column, the only knock is how many home runs he as allowed....

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Nope his numbers are up across the board and at Home they are up a mile.

See above post for stat clarification....

[Maximum12]

Quote:

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As Bill would likes to say I'll prove to you through numbers that Santana is not remotley close to the pitcher he was the last 2 years and more importantly down the stretch when we need him most, Yohans numbers for the year to date are up across the board PERIOD...his ERA, Walks, home runs allowed already matching the last 2 years totals including getting ripped for a career high 4 in a game recently, Strikeouts, W-L's are all dismal compared to the last couple of years.

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**** buzzer ****

I'm sorry Mr. Bridge, incorrect again! His strikeout ratio this year is 1.06K per IP, last year 1.05 per IP. Almost identical, actually a touch up this year. Two years ago 1.03/IP. Again, please go back & look at his stats & watch a few games - that will make it even more clear.

As for his "atrocious" 3.55 ERA in the dome - again, pay attention to baseball. There are 9 - count 'em - starters in the AL with an ERA under 3.55 right now. Atrocious? To go with his K/IP ratio that makes him an ace on most staffs. Atrocious? "I don't think that word means what you think it means" (thanks Inigo Montoya!)

As they say, lies, da*n lies, & statistics. Obviously you're basing your opinion on a few sub-par starts in the past couple of weeks. I have a few friends who have jumped on this bandwagon too - what's wrong with Santana? Just because we've been spoiled by watching a guy who should have won three Cy Young's in a row, everyone moans & bitches when he proves to be human over a short stretch of time.

Answer me this: who'd you rather have, if you could have anyone else in the AL, leading your rotation? Right now?

Nobody.

That's the true measure of a top-of-the-rotation guy.

[OLY]

I want some of what pb is smoking. Atrocious, c'mon seriously?

[eyepatrol]

Cirillo's departure is no big loss IMO. I haven't been a big fan of him at all this year.

But I can't hardly believe there is negative talk about Johan. I mean, wow! The guy is one of THE very best in the entire major league and there are complaints? Wow. Even if he's having a less steller year than in the past, it's still better than 95% of the others in the majors. The record doesn't show it.....that's the offense's fault.

Give me a whole starting rotation of pitchers with 3.0 ERAs or less, and I'll give you the World Series! Give Johan a break. He's just about all we have left, and even that won't last for much longer.

[Stratosman]

IF we had any glimmer of a consistant offense we wouldn't even be having this debate about Santana's performance. So what does it really boil down to? What's the issue? The issue is our lack of offensive production. Our starting pitching has been very solid for the most part but with a team that has basically 4 out of 9 players (with a couple that are not much more that automatic outs) in the lineup that can actually produce, well, you can't expect to have a very good season.

[Bobby Bass]

On a positive note we are, well the Twins are just 5.5 back after this afternoon win. Lots of baseball left.

[IFallsRon]

Cirillo was last year's Phil Neven. Which equal no productivity. If they're going to bring up guys from Rochester, there's no sense in having failed veterans around. Would any of you have been pi$$ed if they cut L. Ford (nice guy because he lit up Mienspankwietz) who's making 1 bleeping mil this year and not contributing.

[Spinner1]

"IF we had any glimmer of a consistant offense we wouldn't even be having this debate about Santana's performance."

Amen to that. It looks like the same roster that had a half dozen .300 hitters last year. I never dreamed the Twin's offense would be so anemic this year.

Santana also leads the league in WHIP at 1.05. It's likely he's pitching well enough to win 18+ if he was a Tiger or an Indian this year.

[harvey lee]

On many teams with better hitting, Johan would have 5-7 more wins. If he gives up a few runs he looses as we cannot give him the run support.

Any team in baseball would take Johan.....

[nofishfisherman]

Ok here is my take on this thread.

Santana-

He is a little down over all this year if you compare his numbers from this year to last year. BUT if you compare Santana to the rest of the AL he will always look like a stud. But to see how he is really doing this year you have to compare him to himself not to other pitchers.

For you stat guys here is the brake down comparing Santana's projected 2007 stats to Santana's 2006 stats which if you want to see if he is having a down year its the only comparision that matters.

.........ERA ....HR.....BB......H......R

2007....2.98.....36.....55.....180.....85

2006....2.77.....24.....47.....186.....79

(Stats from Foxsports, 2007 are their projections)

These are just some of the big categories. In 2007 his ERA is worse by a few points but still good. He is on pace to give up less hits actually but he will shatter his HR total from last year and he will also allow more walks. So what that tells me is that his control has not been picture perfect, he is missing with some pitches that are being deposited into the upper deck and he is missing with enough to walk more people then normal. Both of which can hurt you. If you are giving up more HR's in a a particular year the last thing you want to do it start walking more people to fill more bases. And basically thats why Santana hasn't been as sharp. Now that doesn't mean he isn't still the best pitcher in baseball beucase he is, but if you compare him to the 2006 version he hasn't been as sharp and I don't think anyone can argue that point.

Cirillo-

I am not going to get upset about letting him go. In his own words from earlier this year this is his last year in the league. He claims he can't even play several days in a row any more becuase his legs are so bad. Do you guys want a guy on your bench that isn't even physically able to DH 3 days in a row? His average is way down, he is not hiting for power and he can't physically play in the field for more then an inning or two without having to have someone come out and carry him off the field after the third out.

Throwing in the towel-

Not just yet they aren't. According to some interviews I have heard and read Ryan was frantically trying to get a deal done that would have brought in another bat. But these deals take two teams to pull off. From what I understand other teams wanted pitching which is something we have of course but Garza is and should be untouchable and from what I understand thats what it would have taken to get a middle of the road bat. You don't win rings by trading away your top pitching prospect for a middle of the road third baseman and Ryan is smart enough to know that.

Ryan is actually being hurt by his own trade history I think. Ryan is known league wide to make great trades for his team. Look no farther then the Nathan, Liriano, Bonser for AJ trade. He has a history of ripping of other teams. So now other teams are hesitant to trade with him beucase they know he is so good at stealing you blind if you aren't careful. That just makes it so much harder for him to make trades that won't force him to give up his top pitching prospects.

Who's to blame-

Well for sure it is not Santana, yes he is a little down this year compared to last year but he is pitching well enough to have 15 wins by now if our offense was a little more consitent.

It sure isn't Terry Ryan, he is the only reason we are as competetive as we are. He isn't known as the best in the business for nothing. He only has so much money to work with and with one of the smaller budgets in baseball he has kept the twins competetive.

I think the blame rest mainly with Pohlad, he should see plain as day that we have enough talent to win the world series with the addition of just one maybe two players. When you are that close you owe it to your team and your fans to make a move to get it done. But after saying that I am fine with them not making a trade to bring in a big bat becuase that would have cost them Garza or Baker probably and we need them if we want to contend next year. What I think they need to do is get Santana and Hunter locked up, get Morneau locked up, bring in a good third baseman, try to lock up Nathan if possible but if not trade him and put Neshek in the closer spot. That should give us a great team to contend with for several years. Considering our starting rotation would look something like this (Santana, Garza, Liriano, Baker, Bonser) from 1 through 5 I like the looks of it.

So there you have it, thats my take on the entire Twins organization.

[LwnmwnMan2]

IMO, short and quick, is that they should have traded Santana for 2-3 can't miss hitters.

You'll have Garza / Liriano (IF Liriano can pitch when he comes back) as your number 1/2. Baker as a #3, then Boof or Slowster as 4/5 with Perkins thrown into the mix, possibly.

A pitcher cannot win a game for you, the best he can do is keep it tied 0-0. This is what's plauged Santana this year, Radke in the past. They give up early runs, and the offense cannot recoup.

If Santana signs for $20-25M, I cannot see how you can afford to pay 2 guys 1/2 of your teams payroll (Santana / Hunter, if they resign Hunter) and still be competitive. You'll have to keep more guys like Ford, Kubel, and have no, NO late inning pinch hitter unless Mauer has his day off. No DH. No decent hitting LF.

[Jorgie]

I don't know how much longer Silva has on his contract, but I'd bet good money that if Santana stays, he makes sure his good buddy Carlos stays too.

[harvey lee]

Didnt they just resign Carlos this spring?

[PierBridge]

I wasn't ripping Yohan I just stating a simple fact that if Santana was pitching like he did the last 2 years at this point in time which he clearly is not and I have pointed this out through basic numbers so simple a child could figure it out.

17-0 at home "VERY IMPORTANT INSPORTS" with an ERA of under 2 "nothing to do with run support" versus 4-6 and and 3.50 ERA again basic 4th grade math"nothing to do with run support".

It can't be any simpler really of course there are other concerns which has nothing to do with myself along with the FOX and ESPN baseball analyst bringing this point to light.

We "ME,Fox,ESPN" are not blaming Yohan for anything he is still the best pitcher in Baseball but if Yohan was as dominant as he's been in the past would be a few games closer PEROID maybe thats not fair or a little to much to ask but its the truth.

Sorry you guys took that as DIS on Santanna but and ERA under 2 to 3.55 is a big jump for the WORLDS greatest pitcher...

For you stat lovers who think our runs scored this year are the problem do some home work.

The Twins have dropped from 13th to 15th in MLB's this year in the runs scored department.

They have dropped from 3rd to 9th in Team ERA....again simple math.

Still waiting for all you GM's to give me what you would have done and who you would have traded for,kept???

The Yanks and Red Sox have all the money surely they have bought and traded for the best available to help them down the stretch I'd like their names also, it so easy ya know......

You gotta admit I sure can get a boring thread going....

Throw in the Towel my arse!

[harvey lee]

I dont know if we can even talk about aquiring different players. The twins wont spend any money to get or keep anything other than the budget they are spending now.

We cannot aquire new or better players unless they open the purse strings. They never have and probably never will. They have done well for the way they use thier younger players but with a few more talented hitters and a pitcher or two, where could they possible be now?

One can compare all Minnesota teams the same, small market and no extra money spent on players.

[UdeLakeTom]

Good reason to get rid of Castillo and Ciralo...they weren't doing much of anything and would be gone next year anyway, so see what they got in Buscher and Castia (?)...they won it for the Twins today, and are much younger with more range and speed. If it don't work, you know what you need to do for next year. Some people even wanted to get rid of Baker, me included....Kinda like him now. It's baseball, have fun and be glad we aren't looking at the 1998 Twins.

[Spinner1]

Quote:

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For you stat lovers who think our runs scored this year are the problem do some home work.

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Still waiting for all you GM's to give me what you would have done and who you would have traded for,kept???

.......................

You gotta admit I sure can get a boring thread going....

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Pier

I'll concede the Twins pitching is definitely weaker this year. Unfortunately, that is almost impossible to fix at the trade deadline. #3 or better pitchers just don't seem to change hands. If you look at the Twins pitching over the last few weeks, it appears the young pitchers are improving the staff compared to full year numbers? Who knows, maybe Detroit and Cleveland are slumping at the plate?

I still say the problem is the offense. Cuddy has been out. Morneau and Hunter have cooled off bigtime. Finding a veteran with a little pop in his bat can (and is) done by contending teams on an annual basis. As it stands, you can pitch around two or three Twins, to get to the easy outs. On most nights we have 4 guys in the lineup with poor batting averages, and almost no chance of a HR. We needed an infielder with some power. A 20HR guy. I could give you specific names of players to pickup, but I really don't know what it would cost, because I am not a GM. A lot of players are probably available if you will pay 10 million for a 7 million dollar player. Are they willing to pay the price to win a championship? It doesn't appear so to me today. We'll see soon enough as the big contracts come due. The FO tried to give up last week, but the Tigers and Indians just won't let it happen yet.

And guys that could go in a trade, or be sent down? Punto, White, Cirillo, Tyner, Ford. I would have kept Castillo, since they got nothing for him IMO. To use your words, a child can see they are merely dumping salaries.

[PierBridge]

Some how some way were still kind of in this race obviously if we could have picked up a decent bat somewhere it would be a big help as it looks like the pitching is awesome right now.

Like Harvey said it never has and maybe never will happen here in Minnesota so just DEAL with it.... and hope we can win our 3rd World Series which is more then White or Red sox have won in 100 years...

[Stratosman]

I don't have the desire to do the research required by some, so this is simply my humble opinion.

I'm with spinner in that offensive production is still the main concern for the Twins. Who cares about last years stats, our starting pitching and team ERA have been good enough to win more games than they have. Seems like lots more guys left on base and less clutch hitting. Say what you will about this year vs last year. You cannot deny the fact that we have above average starting pitching. It's that you have (had) guys like Ford, Punto, Kubel, and a couple AAA players regularly in the lineup that would come up in a clutch situation and fail to produce time after time.

[Spinner1]

Couple quick offensive stats. 17 of last 31 games, Twins score 3 runs or less. 51 of our 110 games this year, 3 runs or less scored. I think Gordon said we have been shut out 9 times this season. It's amazing that we are 4 games out of first.

[nofishfisherman]

I think the only stat that matters right now is this...

In the last 11 days we have made up 5 games on the division leaders. Went from 9 1/2 back to only 4 1/2 back.

We're not dead yet.

[KMR85]

its nice you gave names that could be dealt away, but who would they pick up? Casilla will be better than Castillo and his legs arent bad. Also, he got the game winning RBI yesterday. Someone earlier bashed him for losing the friday game. If Morneau comes out of this slump and Johan stops givig up late game homers, they will probably take the division like last year.