Super braid on bait-caster input?

[Weed Shark]

I'm new to super braids. What are the advantages and disadvantages to putting maybe a 30 lb Power Pro onto to a Quantum Accurist 500cx bait caster, for pike in Canada. I hear the line cuts skin easier. Is this a disadvantage for kids thumbing the spool to a stop?

[RobertELee]

The line that is on the spool will not cut you. It is when you are doing something like tying a lure on or grabbing the line to haul a fish into the boat. Most people wrap the line around there hand so the line doesn't slip that is when it can dig into your skin, It looks and feels kind of like a paper cut, but it can be much worse. The thicker lines (30lb and up) won't do it as much but it can happen. Don't be afraid of it just be careful when handling it.

[RobertELee]

The advantages are much better hook set (especially important with large hooks), better feeling of the lure, more strength, less likely to get cut from teeth, etc. Disadvantages would be, much higher pricing, more visible than mono/flouro, not the greatest to use in freezing temperatures because it will get water logged and freeze, etc. I know I'm missing alot more and somebody will fill those in.

[Weed Shark]

How about backlashes? Similar to mono?

[Shack]

I do not have a concern with backlash. I find this more so with mono, then braid. I use power pro now on my cats rigs. I have found the best way to cut it is us a lighter or torch lighter. I like the little balls that it forms at end of line. When pulled on and knot tightens, melted ball pull up nice against knot. makes a stronger knot. It is like burning end or a rope. When you get used to cutting it with lighter, I burn extra up with lighter (be careful of not burning main line) on every knot. I use 65lbs PP. Good luck!

[toddb]

Use higher # test to get the added diameter. Less burying in spool, better knot strength, + more manageable backlashes with less lures being sent into orbit.

later,

toddb.

[Questor]

I like 30# power pro on my bait caster. In fact I think a bait caster is the only good application for the braid. Do not use 30# if you expect to cast baits weighing more than an ounce. The line will snap if you cast hard. I learned this the expensive way. It doesn't keep me from liking the line for its sensitivity as a trolling line. Since it doesn't stretch much it's much more vulnerable to breaking due to shock, so use a lighter drag setting.

In the future, I will probably go back to using monofilament because of the disadvantages of the braid. In practice, I find that the 30# braid is really no less resistant to breakage than 10# mono like Trilene XT.

The one and only advantage I see is greater sensitivity when trolling a long line. Arguably you get better hook sets too because of the lack of stretch, but since I use sharp hooks anyway, hook setting was never an issue with mono.

[Central Bassman]

Make sure you to put mono backing onto your reel then up the braid on. It will keep it from spinning on your hole spool

[slipperybob]

I'm new to using a baitcaster.

I've a Cardiff 400 and I thought that I was backlashing it way to frustrated on the braid line. I thought that the monoline would not backlash as much, but could show some unspooling with lack of line tension. I have been considering whether or not to go straight monofilament.

I have no problem with a baitcaster for ice-fishing.

[Deitz Dittrich]

Slip Bob- on your cardiff 400.. how many of hte anti backlash breaks do you have pulled out.. Many do not know that the cardiff has the same anti backlash of all the other upper end shimano reels.. its just harder to get to.. You have to take the sde plate off the reel and then remove the spool.. The anti backlast knobs are on the backside of the spool. Pull/click a few more out away from the spools center.

[slipperybob]

Deitz,

First couple of times I'd figure Berkley Whiplash line meant Baitcaster Backlash line. I had to experiment with that a little bit, started with two, to none, to three and four. I've now got all six VBS knobs pulled out and that has prevented a lot. I've also slowed down my casting and that helped too. Now I'll just have to practice more to be consistently backlash free.

[Deitz Dittrich]

SlipBob-what lb test are you using?.. the smaller lb diams are so thin that they end up "digging in".. this will also cause backlashes.. which is one of the reasons a lot of people use higher lb tests when casting baitcasters.. I usually will not use less than a 30 lb for baitcasters.

[Weed Shark]

So...let me see if I got this straight.

These braids are expensive. It might cut my kids hands when they grab the line catching a fish (my 3 boys love to do that). It's brittle and may break off my expensive pike baits (30 lb braid has the strength of 10 lb mono). I need to back it with mono so it won't slip. It is more visible (especially since I have to use a heavier pound test to keep it from digging in). My family and I have to burn it to cut it. However, it is more sensitive to feeling 10-20 pound northerns hit (not exactly a light bite).

There is a better hookset.

This is called "Super" braid? I'm starting to wonder where I put my receipt. Mono works fine, other than the memory of the heavier pound lines.

[Weed Shark]

What part of this don't I understand? What's the attraction? Or did I sum it up in the post above?

Memory of heavy mono is less of a problem on baitcasters. A good leader should take care of line being cut by teeth. Its seems counter productive to set the drag lighter for fear of shocking the brittle line. I plan to throw some fairly large baits.

Are super braids best on a spinning reel, where memory is more of a problem with heavy mono? Or for lindy rigging, because one needs the sensitivity in that situatuion? Are super braids not the best on a baitcaster? Am I misunderstanding this strength vs line shock concept? As I stated in the original post, I have yet to use a super braid.

[TurnUpTheFishing]

You seem to to be slightly confused about the braid. Here is a little braid line 101...

Braided line that is 30lb test is just that 30lb pound. It has a diameter of 10 lb. not a breaking strength of 10 pounds.

Braid is very abrasion resistant and very helpful when fishing thick cover and a spool will last several years. Sometimes the line will break cut itself if overlapped on a backlash with a heavy lure (think musky lures). Braid is tuff stuff but I would recomend always using a leader when targeting toothy fish. On a side, make sure your leader has a higher breaking strength than your line. Example, a hookset with 30lb braid and tight drag can snap an 18lb leader.

I would lower the drag on a reel when using braid not because of "shock" as you described but more because the line doesnt stretch like mono without that stretch you could put alot of stress on a rod and break it or rip a hook right out of a fishes mouth.

When using braid on a reel look more into the diameter of the line. For example on average size spinning reels you could use up to 50lb test (12lb dia.) with out many problems. Baitcasters on the other hand dont handle light line (small diameter) as well as spinning reels and braid less then 30 lb. test is not recomended since the diameter is so small.

hope that clears up some questions. Braid is good line but not always the best line for every situation. I utilize braid on a few setups but still prefer mono for most situations.

[Weed Shark]

I appreciate the information. Wow, I'm surprised you can snap an 18 lb leader.

I've needed to tighten the drag fighting big pike with mono (I'm remembering one headed for a fallen tree in a narrows, stopped him just in time). Sounds like that might be dicier with a super braid?

[Questor]

Weed Shark,

Like I said, it's a good trolling line. The following is a series of posts I made on the topic, and some responses. It was at another forum and this forum doesn't allow links to other forums:

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I made an earlier post on the topic of how I could not cast 30# Sufix Performance Braid using 1.5 to 2 ounce weights. The line snapped when I cast for distance.

As a follow-up I went down to the workshop tonight with a bunch of line and my Berkley digital fish scale. I know the scale to be pretty accurate and consistent because I have tested tonight it with known weights varying from under a pound to 25 pounds (gallons of milk, quarts of motor oil, various athletic weights, packages of meat that had been weighed on a certified scale, etc.). The scale is rated to 30 pounds. It seems to read a bit heavy, about 5 to 10 percent (i.e., 10 pounds reads closer to 11 pounds.)

I measured the breaking strength of the following lines by tying a snap to one end with a palomar knot, and a no-slip loop knot to the end that engaged the scale. Pull was steady and slow so I could read the scale. The lines never broke at the knot, always in the length of line between the knots.

Here are the results:

new 30# Sufix Performance Braid broke 14.5 to 15.1 pounds

used 30# Power Pro broke at 15.5 pounds

new 30# Power Pro broke at 17.1 pounds

new Trilene XL 8# broke at 7.8 pounds

new Sufix Elite 8# broke at 8.1 pounds

new Berkley Vanish Transition 12# broke at 2 pounds on the first test and 4.1 pounds on the second test.

new Western Filament 30# dacron broke at 14.5 pounds

new Cortland Micron 20# dacron broke at 9 to 9.5 pounds

new Berkley Trilene XL 12# broke at 9.2 pounds

I think these are reliable measurements. As I said, the scale is pretty accurate and consistent, and the breaking strengths felt like they were consistent with the results I got from the scale.

Still wanting some more testing on the Sufix 30# Power Braid and Cortland 20# dacron, I used a set of athletic weights of known weight. I used no-slip loop knots and very gently lifted the weights with the line. Results were within a couple of pounds of what I measured with the scale.

All lines were dry. Are these lines stronger when wet? Some would have to be twice as strong to meet their rated test weight.

Almost needless to say, I immediately discarded the Vanish, which is a bad line for other reasons too.

While it's nice to know that I could qualify for IGFA records with these lines, I really expect them to test at least their rated weight.

Have you actually measured breaking strength of any of these lines? What results did you get?

I forgot to mention that I tried Sufix 30# from what appear to be two different lots because one is lighter in color than the other. Both tested about the same.

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Response from another person:

yes,i'm was skeptic of my measurement at first as well,i tested :

used PP 15lb = broke under 10lb

new 10lb trilene XL = broke at 7lb (max)

spider wire saltwater fusion 30lb = just under 20lb

i couldn't believe how far off the measurement with the figures provided by the product itself, so i suspect it was the my measurement technics or knots fault,or maybe my scale,i retied and retest so many time at last i give up.what a crap

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Another response:

Bassfreak:

I've read that too, but thought that there would be no point in using braid unless I got a smaller diameter line. I don't have a problem with mono line stretch, so that's not an incentive to move away from mono.

Zest:

Fascinating. Thanks for the results.

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Another response:

To cast 1 - 3oz baits with Braid you must use MIN OF 50 lbs test Braid, 65 would be better, braid has no give so when you cast hvy baits over 1oz you must go with 50lb 65lb braid. I use 80lb Braid for all my hvy baits. Use a 5-10ft fluorocarbon as a leader, I use 50 - 60lbs FC with any line to line knot. GOOD LUCK

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Another response:

I'm not realy doubting any test, but all I can tell you is what I have experienced. Last week, I straightened a Tripple Rattlebag jig hook with fifty pound Power Pro braid. I couldn't have done this with any monofilament that I am aware of.

I think that the power of the braid on a fish is more from its non stretch properties. Afterall, most rods, even heavy flippin' sticks can't exert over fifty pounds of pressure without breaking.

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Another response:

Questor:

When I tested line your way, I got the same result. I couldn't pickup 1 gallon of water(8lbs) with 10lb braids(regardless of brand). I couldn't pickup 2 gallon of water with 20lb braids. And I use a palomar knot in all those case. That led me to the same conclusion as you did since most of the time, the braid did not break at the knot.

BUT believe it or not, all those braids really do overtest. With the right combination of knot and leader, 99% of your braid will test higher than the rated label strength.

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Another response:

Very true.. I myself just use the braid for stuff that I dont want any stretch on , and I usually go with the bigger diameter so it doesnt dig in to the spool.

[cliffy]

I use super-braid line (Power Pro) on all my reels and I have never had any problems. I think a lot of it has to do with getting the right size line for the weight of the lures you will be tossing. For example, many years ago, when I first got into muskie fishing, I loaded up a reel with 50lb super braid. I was tossing 3-4oz lures and I was having a heck of a time with my line bitting into the spool and then the dreaded backlash would follow on my next cast. I moved up to 80lb power pro and the line smoothly sails of my reel and there is no digging in on the return. I would assume the lighter the baits your tossing, the lower the super braid that could be used with still positive results.

I also noticed that you don’t have to have such a hard hook set with braided line since it does not stretch. I can remember blowing a couple of cheaper rods just from the snap of the hook set......there just isnt the need for the massive power hook set (for the most part) with super braid lines

It has been my experience that pike and muskie are not as “line sensitive” as other fish. If they want your bait, they are going to eat it. If you are still concerned, use a heavy mono/fluorocarbon or a titanium leader.

Also, if you are experience a lot of back lashes, make sure you have your reel set properly for the weight of the lure you are tossing. As far as cutting the line, I just use my knife...don’t need to use a torch. Also, make sure you use a palomar knot...at least that is what works best for me. Some knots have a tendency to slip with super braid lines as compared to mono.

Just my two cents.

Cliffy.

[Weed Shark]

Thanks for the time Questor, Cliffy,...everyone. Alot of good info.

[slipperybob]

Quote:

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SlipBob-what lb test are you using?.. the smaller lb diams are so thin that they end up "digging in".. this will also cause backlashes.. which is one of the reasons a lot of people use higher lb tests when casting baitcasters.. I usually will not use less than a 30 lb for baitcasters.

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I can't remember exactly which one but it is either 50lb or 65 lb braid. I don't have the problem of it diggin in that I'm aware of. The backlashes that I experience happens almost imediately right after the cast, right when I release my thumb contact from the spool. That's where I had to slow my casting down.

Maybe I'll have to tied a sinker and practice my casting a bit more. I have some 80lb Stren braid that I was going to put on my Cardiff, but like before the braid is still good, so maybe I'll transfer the braid over to something else.

[Dances with Walleye]

Quote:

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I would lower the drag on a reel when using braid not because of "shock" as you described but more because the line doesnt stretch like mono without that stretch you could put alot of stress on a rod and break it or rip a hook right out of a fishes mouth.

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The problem isn't your Drag... The Problem is your Rod... If you're Rippin' Lips on Hook sets, it's your rod, and not your drag that's causing the problem...

There's a little bit of sideways info going on Weedwhacker...

#1. Yes the line can cut your hands if you're mishandling it... This is a prime opportunity to teach you boys good habits of how to handle line when landing... They should learn it now, when they're young and their habits are maleable, rather than older.

#2. The line does not snap with heavy lures... On the contrary, Super braid is almost impossible to snap... The problem is that you can't tie a regular old fishing knot with super braid... It must be a Palomar knot, or some other knot that has the line sinching down on itself. Because of the polymer nature of the super braid, a regular knot can pull through with a catastrophic snap.... Which is often confused as being line breakage.

(I've NEVER broken my line with 10 pound or higher braid, unless I hit it with something sharp under tension, or tied an incorrect knot.)

#3... The Stretch factor... Superbraid is more sensative than a pregnant manic-depressive woman who's run out of chocolate.

Which once you get used to it, you can really play this to your advantage, feeling what's going on... Detecting strikes, weeds and other actions... Again though... There's a bit of a learning curve.

HOWEVER... You need to compensate for the No-stretch factor on Hook sets... This is done by having an appropriate rod... If you slap it on a stiff action ugly stick, you can expect to do a lot of lip ripping...

What you want is a rod that is very sensative and forgiving at the tip down to just abou the halfway portion of the rod but then has stiff power after that...

This will allow you to compensate for the nostretch factor lost when not using mono.

****

The biggest advantage of a superline is it's toughness.

It you love chasing big pike near weeds... Going after them with Mono is like bringing a knife to a gunfight...

Braids (When used correctly) allow you to really get in their and horse those beasts out of their weedy lairs...

AND... There really is no need for a leader if you're running 12+ pound.

I keep a detailed journal... Last year I tracked Leader disruption to the tune of a lure and also tracked hook up percentage to lost fish.

Final Tally... Without a leader, hook up percentage increased by 300%...

Lost lures occured 3 out every 115 pike.

This weekend I caught 5 pike over 26 inches with no leader... 2 gutted my lure so deep that it was just line "Flossing" their teeth... I was long lining it 100+ feet back...

I didn't even have a scratch on my line.

[Weed Shark]

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There's a little bit of sideways info going on Weedwhacker...

I keep a detailed journal... Last year I tracked Leader disruption to the tune of a lure and also tracked hook up percentage to lost fish.

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Dances with Walleye,

Excuse me but my user name is "Weed Shark", not "Weed Whacker."

"Dances with Wolves" kept an ill-fated journal, too..........

[Dances with Walleye]

Quote:

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There's a little bit of sideways info going on Weedwhacker...

I keep a detailed journal... Last year I tracked Leader disruption to the tune of a lure and also tracked hook up percentage to lost fish.

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Dances with Walleye,

Excuse me but my user name is "Weed Shark", not "Weed Whacker."

"Dances with Wolves" kept an ill-fated journal, too..........

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Ooops... Sorry... On another board at the same time I was writing a post to a guy named Wave Whacker... So I wonder if inadvertantly called him "Wave Shark."

LOL!

As for the journal... Wow is that just such an indispensible tool for increasing my hook up percentage year after year...

So many little insights gleaned in one year, that I investigate the next year, and captialize on in the third year.

Stuff like:

When night fishing during a dark moon, use a dark lure instead of a bright one.

If the water temp is 55 or under troll a stick bait... 55 or over use a shad body.

Superline pretty much elminated the need for a leader with pike, and the truer action improved hook set 3-fold.

After a cold rain the hotest bite is around Islands, due to their lower amount of space and shorter cold run off time.

Jigging with a small inline swivel during ice season reduces line torsion and increases hook up percentage by over 400%.

****

^^^^All of those were gleaned just from keeping little records in my journal.

And then I also write out the funny stories... So during the winter I can look back and laugh with my buddies... Or 30 years from now my kids can crack a spine and read about the kind of man their Dad was back in his prime.

[Weed Shark]

Dances with Walleye,

LOL

You have some interesting info there. I wouldn't have thought leaders decreased hooking by that much...but I believe it.

[Dances with Walleye]

Quote:

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Dances with Walleye,

LOL

You have some interesting info there. I wouldn't have thought leaders decreased hooking by that much...but I believe it.

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Every year I go through and check the tune of my raps... Something that gets WAY overlooked by many anglers...

I can tell you that it doesn't take much at all to get a lure out of tune... I'd say well over 60-70% of my lures go out of tune over the course of a year.

And once a lure goes out of tune it's hook up percentage is less than half of what it was before...

One thing I noticed was that 100% of all my lures that were used with leaders were out of tune inside of a month of use...

I used to fish some pretty pike heavy lakes... So I got pretty anal about always checking my tune...

And I started noticing that I could tie a lure straight to the line... It ran in tune...

Tie the same lure seconds later to a leader... And while it wasn't Out of tune... It didn't run the same...

I had one occasion... It was a dead day (Or so I thought.) While my buddy ran the trolling motor, I just tuned my lures... I was tuning a lure with a Leader on... Big pike hit from out of no where... Land CPR etc...

Check the same lure... "Out of Tune."

So working on what was then the "Burgeoning Hunch" I tied on the lure to just the line. (At the time I was using some strong mono.) And I just kept using the same lure. After every fish I checked the tune of my lure.

Over the course of the next 3 days, I caught 17 more pike (7 or which were over 18 inches IIRC). Before the lure finally went out of tune.

I re-tuned it and 2 fish later I finally had a bite off... ON MONO!

(Granted it was some pretty fancy, high pound mono.... So take that with a grain of salt.)

Later I started using Braid... Which a strong braid can go through many scrapes with pike teeth before you start seeing signs of wear...

****

Don't get me wrong... Braid isn't a "Be all End all, Best line ever."

But on a trolling Rod... Used correctly... It the best bet for the application.

If you're panfishing... Leave the braid off.... Better off going with some Flouro, and just being mindful that flouro will slowly sink.

[Questor]

I guess I don't see eye to eye with Dances with Walleyes on this one. I can snap 30# braid repeatably almost every time I try to cast for distance with a weight exceeding one ounce. And I find no advantage over mono when pike fishing. On the contrary, the stretch in mono is an asset for these short-distance fish that are prone to spurts of speed near the boat.

Relatively small diameter and sensitivity are the benefits of braid.

Another technique: If you need to free a snag with braided line, you don't have to handle it or worry about cutting yourself on it. On a baitcaster, just thumb the reel hard and pull with the line going straight through the guides (i.e. no rod bend). That will free it unless you've got a lot of line out. Another trick is to carry a short dowel in your tackle box and wrap the line around the dowel. Then pull on the dowel instead of the line.

[Dances with Walleye]

Quote:

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I guess I don't see eye to eye with Dances with Walleyes on this one. I can snap 30# braid repeatably almost every time I try to cast for distance with a weight exceeding one ounce. And I find no advantage over mono when pike fishing. On the contrary, the stretch in mono is an asset for these short-distance fish that are prone to spurts of speed near the boat.

Relatively small diameter and sensitivity are the benefits of braid.

Another technique: If you need to free a snag with braided line, you don't have to handle it or worry about cutting yourself on it. On a baitcaster, just thumb the reel hard and pull with the line going straight through the guides (i.e. no rod bend). That will free it unless you've got a lot of line out. Another trick is to carry a short dowel in your tackle box and wrap the line around the dowel. Then pull on the dowel instead of the line.

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But are you tieing a knot (Palomar or otherwise) where the line in sinching down on itself... If you're tieing a regular knot, it simply won't do and you're going to have the knot snapping, when enough force is applied to it... Such as a power cast on a heavy lure.

In a pinch I've had to put Musky Spinners on 10 pound braid, and had them hold, so long as I've had the right kind of knot tied on.

****

As for the mono and short strikes...

I'd still rather have a rod with the proper level of forgiveness at the final third to half... 10 feet of 20% stretch Mono with a short strike only = 2 feet of forgiveness (Assuming it's new, and uncompromised)... My 7 foot BC trolling rod (Which is specially made for this kind of application has just over 3 feet of what I call "The Forgiveness Zone."

And with having a proper rod for the job you have something giving you information back... You can see your rod bend... You can hear your drag peel... And adjust your situation accordingly... You can't look at Mono, and estimate what level of stretch and integrity it's at.

****

In the end Braided has it's uses and it's failings...

Just like how you can dig post holes with your ice auger, or cut a steak with a surgical scalpal... It doesn't mean those are the best tools to be using for those jobs, or the best jobs to be using those tools for.

****

I have what I call "The 80% Rule."

I don't apply a product to a task unless it can be used for that task 80% of the time or better.

If 80% of the time you're going to be bobber fishing with your kids... 10% casting and 10% trolling... Braided line isn't for you... And a Strong mono would do you better.

If you're like me and 90% of your time fishing is spent in some conglomeration of Lindy Rigging, Trolling, or Casting for Musky... Then going out on the water with anything other than correctly used superline on the appropriate rods, is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

*Musky Note: I go lighter than most on Musky Line and only run with 60 pound Superline... Could you imagine what size Reel I'd have to have to spool for 60 pound mono!

[TurnUpTheFishing]

Quote:

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But are you tieing a knot (Palomar or otherwise) where the line in sinching down on itself... If you're tieing a regular knot, it simply won't do and you're going to have the knot snapping, when enough force is applied to it... Such as a power cast on a heavy lure.

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I have never used anything but a palomar knot on braids and have sent several lures into orbit on a cast/backlash. Most often it occurs with big muskie lures and 65 lb. test braid. I was told that its because of the line's strength characteristics, the line can actually cut through itself when overlapped and enough force is there, like backlash conditions.

Most times it has occured I was able to retrieve my lure and the knot was still intact on the leader or lure.

[Questor]

What TurnUpTheFishing said has been my experience too.

[Dances with Walleye]

Quote:

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What TurnUpTheFishing said has been my experience too.

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See now I've NEVER had this happen...

And I've been blasting away with Braided line for 250-400 hours a year for the last 5 years now...

So if it's not a knot issue... I'm trying to think what else it could be...

I assume you guys aren't doing something like bomb casting 1 ounce lures on 6 pound test. (You mentioned 30 pound)

My other thought would be "Are you exceeding the casting weight of the rod?" While this can be a factor, I don't know that it would be the catastrophic issue that would cause such line snapping.

*****

Now let me re-define this thought to WS's original post about the Pro's and con's of braids...

Now let's put aside my A+ experience with no line snapping...

Would you guys who are having line snapping issues say that it breaks more or less than Mono?