Training a Lab To Point!

[ReelTimes]

As my wife often reminds me, they're primarily a pet and member of the family 9 months of the year. For us, that means living in the house and being part of the family. I know some guys whose dogs are wound so tight that the wives won't let them in the house and they live in outdoor kennels. For some, I am sure that works fine but for us, we have always wanted our hunting dogs to be pets and family members, and have the frequent interaction that comes from being in the home.

[gspman]

There is a training method called the Bill West method and a video based on that method called - Training Labs to Point that some have used. Some of you with PL's may want to research that. I know very little about the method other than the fact that several reasonably well known pointing dog trainers use this method in some form for "regular" pointing breeds.

[duckbuster]

If you would please explain in real specific terms the differences between the two.

Thanks

[gspman]

A dog that's been trained to stand it's game stops when it smells a bird not because instinct tells it to but because it was trained to stop and stand there (basically whoa) when it smells a bird. Oftentimes the dog doesn't have the intensity that an instinctive pointer would. Some may also flag while standing there which means it's tail is moving/wagging. Flagging is not desireable in a pointer. A really good trainer could probably make one look reasonably acceptable on point. If you look at cw642's pick above, the dog on the left is backing the dog pointing. It's trained to stop and stand there when it sees another dog on point. It's standing it's game and the game in this case is the dog that's on point. It's not as intense. The dog on the right is more instense and is the one that's pointing the birds and it's doing it instinctively. BTW, nice pic CW.

A dog thats really pointing is doing it on instinct. When it goes on point it should have a real intense look. It should be stock still. Unless it's really unsure of where the bird is it's tail shouldn't be moving. It's eyes may be bugging out or looking like they're burning a hole in the cover in front of it. It may be quivering ever so slightly all over - like it's going to explode at the seams any second.

The intensity is kinda like when you are holding a dummy and a lab is in front of you looking at you to throw it. It's ears are cocked forward, eyes staring at you or the dummy and it's standing there stock still and shaking waiting for you to throw it. The dog is totally and completely focused.

It's hard to describe the difference but if you saw typical examples of the 2 dogs come into a point/stand I think you'd easily see the difference.

The great trainer Delmar Smith once had a couple coyotes that he trained to stand birds. He said they did a pretty good job at it.

Hope the description helps.

[cw642]

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The great trainer Delmar Smith once had a couple coyotes that he trained to stand birds. He said they did a pretty good job at it.

Hope the description helps.

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I was trying to remember who it was that did the yote thing. For some reason I thought it was in Wehle's book but I couldn't find it in there. Thanks.

CW

[Shack]

Thanks guys for all your info! I have been reading all post’s with delight. I gave training my Lab a brake for the last couple of days. My Dakota and I were getting frustrated. Also I have been shore fishing with my kids for suckers and carp. They have been begging me to go, so I thought it would be fun.

I thought I had a break threw on Wednesday afternoon, but it was short lived. The main reason I have been trying this (short of the accomplishment of doing it) is because of her reaction to game in the field.

I really only grouse hunt and the only time pheasant was brought in to the picture was during her initial training when she was a pup. When we get into an area were it is really birdie and she picks up a scent, she will pause and give me a sign (which I have learned over the years). She has a pause effect and sure enough when I give her the command to “get in their”, there is a grouse flushing with in seconds. After hunting with her many times over the last 3 years, I began to notice this pause. Now if I can train her into pointing during this pause, boo yaaa I will strike gold. If this pause of sorts (and I describe it as a pause for a lack of better words) could be harnessed and trained into a point I would have accomplished my mission.

When I have been training her the last couple of weeks, I have been hiding grouse wings in my back woods. I put them into area’s that resemble grouse habitat. I bring her out and start off at edge of woods, like we would start out during any old hunt. During this I keep her closer than normal. I will direct her into area of the hidden grouse wings. When she picks up sent and gives me the look back on what to do (the pause), I give her command to sit and stay (right hand up in policeman’s stop position). At that point she is with in a couple of feet of wings. I go to her and put her head and tail in a traditional pointer position and redirect her to stay. She has stayed in this position several times now. But most times she will revert to sitting. I can not get mad at her for this, because this is what I have trained her to do for this command. I have been working on her in garage as of last. I will put her in a pointing position and have been commanding her to the term of “point”. She has been very responsive to this and my next step after getting her to perfect this, is to have it second nature . With out having to command her in field. I have gotten some progress, but it has been a lot of work. I hope in the next month to have a break threw (not holding my breath). I really do not need her to point, but it would be nice in a grouse hunting aspect to get ready for the shot. Will post more later. Thanks again for all of the information given.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PLEASE KEEP POSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[duckbuster]

When it comes to Grouse hunting I would prefer my Lab to flush the bird, get a shot if possible. If not then we go searching in the trees of the flight pattern. 9 times out of 10 we end up finding what we were looking for in the tree and seconds later we put our game in the bag.

I agree with the pointer people and most of their thoughts. Let the dogs do what they instinctively do. No sense in beating your head against a wall and try to go the opposite way in which they were bred.

Pointers point and flushers flush.

GOOD LUCK with our continued head beating/training.

[kgpcr4]

And my Pointing Lab can do it all. Today when we were scouting in ND for pheasant hunting spots for next fall. She did 3 rock solid points on Roosters that were in the weeks where we pulled over to let her run a bit. A little later we stoped by a lake and she went for a 10 minute swim. she was swimming for a good 10 minutes without coming to shore and there was still some ice on the other end of the lake. she then got out and went right back in. How many breeds can do that??

[killerloop1]

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When it comes to Grouse hunting I would prefer my Lab to flush the bird, get a shot if possible. If not then we go searching in the trees of the flight pattern. 9 times out of 10 we end up finding what we were looking for in the tree and seconds later we put our game in the bag.

I agree with the pointer people and most of their thoughts. Let the dogs do what they instinctively do. No sense in beating your head against a wall and try to go the opposite way in which they were bred.

Pointers point and flushers flush.

GOOD LUCK with our continued head beating/training.

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Duckbuster,

Good POINT (instinctively)

[rundrave]

I think this whole post is just a big can of worms. I believe its been said on this site before many times "the best dog is the one you have and work with." if you can get a lab to lock up thats great, but its not pointing.

I am a pointer guy, own a GSP, have ran my dog in the navhda natural ability and soon utility tests.

I am still not sold on the pointing labs, I refer to it more as stopping and looking and it has to be trained its not instinct.

are pointing labs great dogs? definately but why take all the time and effort and force a dog to learn how to do it, when you can get several breeds of dogs to do it with out any effort.

I would really suggest some of you retriever guys to attend a navhda natural ability test and you would be a amazed at the things these dogs are required to do to pass these tests. There is alot more water work involved than what you think and alot of these dogs handle is just fine rain snow or shine.

I think its amazing that you can get some of these labs to lock up they way they do, I really think its great. I am just not into the label of its a pointing lab so it points.

[Shack]

I fully know it will not be a true point. I have given it a rest for a week or two, so I can get boat out. I like training my dog. I am not forcing her to anything she does not want to do. She loves the attention. If it help's me get to my goal and she is willing, I say what the heck. I will post more when we break threw, if we do! Sorry if I started a reoccuring post, but I am just a man who furthered a post that I was intrestad in. All I was looking for was advise. Thanks to all who gave advise. Good night!

[kgpcr4]

(Contact Us Please) i guess i was wrong my lab does not point. funny though she stands there just like my buddies GSP on point. right front paw picked up and looks like a statue. Oh well i thought it was a point. I never taught her to whoa or stand on a bird or anything like that. Ok i agree its not a point but what would you call that when a dog turns to stone on a bird tail hight with her right front paw picked up?? To describe her she looks just like a GSP on point.

[LABS4ME]

Shackbash,

If your dog likes the attention and she is catching on to what it is you want, I say go for it. If it gives you a sense of accomplishment and makes you and your dog a better hunting team, then that is the end goal of owning and training a huning dog. Good Luck on the grouse this season.

To all with pointing labs,

Do not take what is typed here too personally and become offended. I, along with most posters on here understand that many labs do indeed point, some do it to a further degree than others. If it suits your style of hunting and you enjoy the time spent with your dog, then by all means carry on with him/her. If a pointing lab is what you set out to get and you got a successful one, then mission accomplished. If you have a lab that doesn't point but you feel you and your dog will be more successful by teaching it to 'stand game' then by all means employ that training to achieve that ability.

We all have our personal opinions and desires in a hunting dog, be it: breed - style - color - size - and drive. There is no right or wrong in a hunting dog. If it is what you desire, then that is the right dog for you. It may not be for the next guy, or the guy after that. It's what works for you that matters.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Shack]

Labs4me,

I just like to chat about this kind of thing. In normal life, I can not get anyone around me to be interested in dogs. This forum is a nice place to just talk, as well as get a question answered. I restarted this thread to further a topic from another thread, just like thread would of kept going. I figured there may be a tip or two down the pike and I was right. Constructive criticism! I was not offended by anyone's post, because if that was case I would report it. Just trying to put my point across! I do really appreciate your concern. I value anyone's opinion, even if it goes against the grain of what I am doing. That’s what makes this site “Great”. I have no question in particular I need answered. With you guys posting, question's I did not think of come up and get answered even before I could respond to ask them. Thanks again everyone. I will further post if I restart training again soon.

[311Hemi]

Labs....I agree that PL people on here should not take the info here personally....however it's hard to not reply to certain posts that don't seem to follow what is actually happening.

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if you can get a lab to lock up thats great, but its not pointing.

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I am still not sold on the pointing labs, I refer to it more as stopping and looking and it has to be trained its not instinct.

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but why take all the time and effort and force a dog to learn how to do it

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I then ask what you consider the following pictures? This is not trained or forced, it is natural. This is not pointing?

Labs (sorry for the size on the first!):

GSP:

[JDM]

OK - I have to ask. If these labs are not truly pointing as some of you say, can we then say that when a pointer retrieves, they really aren't retrieving, but are only doing what they were trained to do? Let's not call it a retrieve, only that they are "carrying game," kind of like "standing game."

After all, if a lab can't point, then, a pointer can't retrieve, right? Some of you guys really crack me up.

[ReelTimes]

I think we all know that some labs will instinctively point and it is a true point while others don't but have been trained to "hold" on the flush (standing game). Those pics are all true points (imho).

[kingr]

I reconize that yellow lab in the second pic. He's the stud of my soon to be pup! Hopefully that'll be my pup next season out in ND. I am one of the hopefuls that is willing to pay extra $$ for a lab that has a better chance of pointing....Is it worth it?...if he points of course it will be, if not, I just spend a lot a money on a good dog. not really a down side except of the extra cash that I'm willing to give up knowing the chances aren't 100%.

This is a really informative forum. One of the few that hasn't been turned into a chevy vs ford deal. Lets continue that trend.

[311Hemi]

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I reconize that yellow lab in the second pic. He's the stud of my soon to be pup!

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KingR......I think you will be happy with your pup. Who is the (Contact Us Please)?

One of my good friends just got his pup out of Jake & Jazz. The pups around 13 weeks now. Pointed the first two Chuckar it came upon.

Another guy I train with has a Jake and Magic pup that is doing well also....I have seen some good pics of her pointing!!

Email me at (remove the ***) zachej***1 (at) hotmail.com if you have a min!

[LABS4ME]

Hemi, that 1st photo (large one) is really neat! I loved it!

JDM... one of the funniest posts I have read! hehehe

I still like my flushers, but as I stated before, nothing prettier than a good solid point. It just usually doesn't involve a flusher...

Good Luck!

Ken

[Harmonica Bear]

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OK - I have to ask. If these labs are not truly pointing as some of you say, can we then say that when a pointer retrieves, they really aren't retrieving, but are only doing what they were trained to do? Let's not call it a retrieve, only that they are "carrying game," kind of like "standing game."

After all, if a lab can't point, then, a pointer can't retrieve, right? Some of you guys really crack me up.

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Now that is good humor! Although I hate to throw a "yeah but" in there, but with my last two setters and my current one you not that far off. They retreive (or "carry game") naturally...sort of. To really no-fault retreive it has and will take training just like everything.

[gspman]

This pointing lab topic invariably blows up on every message board I go on. For some reason people always get their undies in a bunch over PL's. If you have a dog, any dog, that points instinctively or was trained to point and it makes you happy and proud then that's wonderful.

There are specialists that will do certain things better than a generalist. If you own a specialist dog there's no need to condemn those who are training their dog to do what the specialist does. If it makes them happy sobeit. There's certainly no reason to feel threatened by it. It may not look right to you but it's not your dog and you don't have to hunt with it so why do you care.

gspman

[Shack]

311 hemi,

All of your pictures are great. The first one is the best. I like the front/right paw. What ever they call this, "standing game" or "pointing" (it seems like a very proper point to me) this is what my goal is (could be a pipe dream).Before any formal training to "stand game"; my Dakota would react like third photo to game in the field. After several week now of training, she reacts similar to dog in the second photo. I guess what I am looking for is my dog to alert me in the field as to when game are in an area and not flush them until I command her to do so. Anyone who denounces furthering training a dog to do something the master wants does not realize this is the whole aspect of training to begin with. I feel with time and perseverance, my goal might be reached. I do not want to go and buy a pointer and start from the beginning, when I have a very well trained dog to work with. I would just like to further a characteristics my dog shows signs of already having. I never researched her past and never had stated that their is no history in her past of pointing lab blood. Who knows, we will see what the next month holds. Thanks again!

SHACKBASH

[Shack]

At this point Pointing Lab stock could be a possiblity, I do not know.

[311Hemi]

LOL....I agree..I like that first pic alot!

JDM...nice post...that was good!

And..not to beat a dead horse..but you are right in what you are thinking:

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(it seems like a very proper point to me)

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However...if you are able to train your dog to do something similar (eg. standing game), that is great. It's all about what each hunter wants and everyone is different. I would not condemn someone for training anything...it's up to them and what makes them happy. If they want to train their dog to be "a retriever" then so be it!

My argument in this topic has been mainly that "standing game" and natural point are in fact different thing (as has already been discussed, and (getting off topic on pointing labs and away from the standing game post) to show people who don't believe that labs do naturally point...and that they do so without any training!

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If you have a dog, any dog, that points instinctively or was trained to point and it makes you happy and proud then that's wonderful.

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I agree GSPMAN!

[gspman]

Shack,

Don't worry about having a front paw up. Some dogs do that and some don't. The paw being up has nothing to do with pointing. Actually saw a novice trainer trying to get his new pup to do that once. Couldn't figure out what the heck he was doing until I asked him. Let the dog's feet do what they want to as long as they're not moving. If you want your dog to have some style get the tail pointing straight up like this... It looks much nicer than a level tail.

All 3 labs in those pics look like they're pointing & not standing. Pic #1 is right on top of the bird. Ideally the dog should be farther away from the bird. Pic #2 looks like he might be creeping. Creeping is generally a no-no. Pic #3 is what you want. A dog that generally points from a ways off the bird. The dog in pic #3 actually has half decent style too.

[LABS4ME]

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If you want your dog to have some style get the tail pointing straight up like this...

It looks much nicer than a level tail.

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When did'ya cut off your dog's tail???

Good Luck!

Ken

[gspman]

Yer killin' me Labs. I wish that were my dog. It's an Elhew Pointer. I'll come back into my chosen breed now. Here's a high tail on a shorthair. This is what I like looking at. A classy stylish point with the dog high & tight on both ends.

[kgpcr4]

I agree they look like points to me as well. Thats what my Pointing Lab does when she goes on point. Also who said a pointer cant retrieve?? I have seem many that did a fine job of it!

[fishin5]

Ok...I held off as long as I could. My personal feeling is that this debate comes down to an east/west issue at least as far as upland goes. In what I'll call the "west" (roughly an hour west of I29 and south of Iowa) birds are not concentrated in "small" areas of cover. You need a big running dog to find birds...and then you find the dog. We hunt a ranch in ND for Sharps that is 63 sections! We do it off of horse back and have a ball!!! Quail in the south and south west are the same story. You need a dog that can efficiantly find game and the wait for you to find him.

Ruffies are a differant story...my GWP and VDD will find a ton of ruffs that I cant get my fat butt through the thick to. same thing with large cattail stands...the limitation isn't on the dog, it's on my ability to get to the dog

That being said when anyone asks me what kind of dog they should get, I tell them it is my opinion that the "best" dog for the upper midwest is a lab. The majority of the cover in this area is best suited for labs ( or Clumber spanials!!) and they generally are personable, easily trained dogs.

The next best breed would be any of the "versitale" breeds with the deciding factor probably being coat prefferance or if the dog is used at all for waterfowl.

Now that I've vented that off my chest, lets get to the first message of this thread. In my 20 years of traing GWP and VDD the ONLY thing I haven't had to train them to do is how to Point. I have to train them to come, sit, heel, down, and yes I force break all my dogs (as should all hunting dog owners including lab owners). Most all of my dogs retrive naturally, but I want that to be a command so there is no question to bring the game back.

Just my 2 scents worth. you don't have to listen to me...no one else does!